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Online Chat with Dr. Davis
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Discussion topics: Lp(a), hypothyroidism, endopat, insulin sensitivity, l-arginine

December 2, 2009 transcript of online chat with Dr. William R. Davis and Members of Track Your Plaque.

This transcript is Copyright 2009 Track Your Plaque. Track Your Plaque Members may make copies for personal use.

(To make this raw transcript easier to read it can be copied and pasted into a word processor such as Microsoft WORD).

20:02:50 heart_builder -> Has Creatine Pyruvate beend shown to rebuild human hearts?

20:40:27 HeartHawk -> Hola

20:42:56 Barkeater -> Greetings HeartHawk. I have always liked your moniker.

20:43:18 Barkeater -> Don't take that the wrong way.

20:43:24 HeartHawk -> LOL!

20:43:37 HeartHawk -> Of course we are all here early seeing the time got changed

20:44:07 Barkeater -> Do I understand that it starts in ~15 minutes?

20:44:21 HeartHawk -> Yes, Just got off the phone with Doc Davis

20:46:46 chickadeenorth -> Hi folks

20:46:58 Barkeater -> Greets, Chick!

20:47:23 Barkeater -> You're an early bird.

20:47:28 chickadeenorth -> So assume the chat starts in 10 min??

20:47:34 HeartHawk -> yup

20:47:51 chickadeenorth -> yes wanted to make sure I got it right as have not done it before:)

20:47:58 chickadeenorth -> HI HH

20:48:11 HeartHawk -> yohoho!

20:48:26 HeartHawk -> and of course a bottle of rum

20:48:33 chickadeenorth -> have an awesome low carb spinach lasagne in oven

20:48:49 HeartHawk -> stop! I'm starvin' lol

20:48:51 chickadeenorth -> it is -24 so a bottle of rum would be nice!!!!!

20:49:02 chickadeenorth -> I'll send some UPS:)

20:49:11 Barkeater -> Ouch. minus 24!

20:49:23 HeartHawk -> Actually, I have a nice bottle of 2006 Tannat grape from Uruguay

20:49:27 chickadeenorth -> yah truck wouldnt start all day

20:49:38 chickadeenorth -> Hmmmm we're all set for dinner

20:49:43 Barkeater -> Had a truck like that once.

20:49:52 HeartHawk -> -24? exactly how far north r u?

20:50:01 HeartHawk -> is that C or F

20:50:17 chickadeenorth -> so tell me this is not where i can listen right

20:50:21 chickadeenorth -> C

20:50:34 mimi42 -> We're under a tornado watch.

20:50:39 Barkeater -> Chick - you are in Calgary, right?:

20:50:59 chickadeenorth -> thats still cold as I am used in living in CR over past few winters and not going till Jan 4 this yr

20:51:20 chickadeenorth -> north of Calgary 6 hr, Jasper, right on border of the national park

20:51:37 Barkeater -> Cool in every sense.

20:51:38 chickadeenorth -> oh my goodness, where mimi

20:52:06 mimi42 -> South Carolina. BTW. Jasper is one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen.

20:52:19 chickadeenorth -> ya right bark, skiing is best its been in 40 yr,almsot 300 cm of snow!!

20:52:29 chickadeenorth -> ya its pretty awesome

20:52:37 chickadeenorth -> what hurricane is it

20:53:22 mimi42 -> Not a hurricane. Just a front coming through. Temps going from 70's to 50's F.

20:53:38 HeartHawk -> Calgary is near Banff right?

20:54:17 chickadeenorth -> ohh that probably cold for you if used to warm plus you have the humidty, its very dry where I live so the snow is light and fluffy

20:54:29 chickadeenorth -> will get serious now:)

20:54:35 Barkeater -> Like large LDL

20:54:46 chickadeenorth -> hey goodone!

20:54:55 chickadeenorth -> keep us on topic lol

20:56:08 Barkeater -> Hey gonetokiowa - can you explain your moniker?

20:56:39 gonetokiowa -> live at lake kiowa tx

20:57:30 Barkeater -> We have a wide swath of North America on board here. I am in New Hampshire.

20:58:13 Dr. Davis -> Hi, everyone! Welcome to the Track Your Plaque Chat.

20:58:19 Barkeater -> Greets Dr. D. Thanks for doing this and all the other stuff you do.

20:58:47 Dr. Davis -> We haven't had a chat in quite a while, so we may have lots to talk about. Thanks, Bark.

20:59:05 chickadeenorth -> thank YOU

21:00:08 Dr. Davis -> We can drag out feet a couple of minutes until the appointed hour. But let me first tell you that we've been working quietly and hard in the background trying to make this process better--more easily navigable, easier to follow step-by-step.

21:01:23 Barkeater -> hey doc - I saw something the other day (attributed to a Dr. Castelli if I recall) that seemed to say that high dose niacin taken less than once a day -- say every other day -- might boost HDL higher. Have your heard of this?

21:01:25 Dr. Davis -> We are also working on, as you may have noticed, making test kits to facilitate getting testing done. We have talked with one of the labs to even get lipoprotein testing performed by fingerstick, but that won't likely happen for at least a couple of years. But I didn't think we'd even have it for another 10 years! So a couple of years would be fabulous (if they come through).

21:01:35 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Bark--

21:01:59 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Bark--No, sorry, I've not heard this. Should you or anyone try it, please let us know if it does indeed work.

21:02:50 Dr. Davis -> Castelli is a pretty reliable observer. If he says it happens, there may indeed be something there. But it sounds wacky. I can't imagine why that might happen.

21:03:24 Barkeater -> Doc - Are your ready to be bombarded with questions?

21:03:25 Dr. Davis -> I see some unfamiliar name tags here. Do any newcomers to the program have any questions on basic elements of the TYP program?

21:03:37 Dr. Davis -> Bark--Fire away!

21:04:30 Barkeater -> I joined TYP in Feb. 09, after quitting Lipitor. My lipid doc says I have FH (my son has lipids worse than mine), but no xanthomas and actually no relatives dying young. Four NMRs since Feb. have produced LDL-P numbers and percent small LDL of roughly 1640 (7% small), 1540 (20%), 2300 (45%), and now 2400 (12%). HDL is 54 – 58 (1g/day Niaspan). I eat what I want, which includes a lot of meat and chicken, but low low wheat and neither excessive sat fat nor avoidance. My jump in LDL-P corres

21:05:22 Dr. Davis -> Bark--Refresh my memory: Is there a thyroid issue?

21:05:45 Barkeater -> corrsponds with increase to 3g /day in EPA/DHA. Could that be the problem? No thyroid issues I know of.

21:05:53 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Bark--

21:06:01 Dr. Davis -> Sorry, I keep on hitting the return.

21:06:33 Dr. Davis -> No, it would be a stretch to blame EPA + DHA. However, the exception would be if you had substantial VLDL or an apoE4 pattern.

21:06:51 mimi42 -> I've been on TYP for 18 months. LDL's are down from 94 to 35. Is there such a thing as too low?

21:07:00 Barkeater -> VLDL is good, but I am wondering about ApoE4

21:07:37 eepaul -> Dr Davis: Any of your patients using tocotrienols to try to lower LDL? Thanks, Erin

21:07:37 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Mimi--There probably is, but remember: That's your calculated LDL, which can be off by 20, 50, even 100 mg/dl or more. A measured value, preferably apoB or NMR LDL particle number might be helpful.

21:08:27 Dr. Davis -> Bark--ApoE4 would make you exceptionally sensitive to fat intake, unlike most other people. Also, did you lose weight? Because, if so, transient crazy changes can occur that return on weight stabilization.

21:08:35 sergad -> Dr. Davis, thanks for all you do. Are there any plans to have a drug/supplement interaction chart or at least some suggestions as to when to take certain meds and whether they should be taken with food, and what meds the supplements should not be taken with?

21:09:41 davidgrantmartin -> Is there any new information about aortic valve stenosis? I am interested in the role of vitamins D and K. I realize the evidence is anecdotal in your past writing.

21:09:52 mimi42 -> apoB is 32. LDL P is 390.

21:10:22 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Serg--Good idea. One of the things we've neglected is to keep a running and frequently updated chart of how and when to introduce various strategies. This is something we should do in future. There actually are several places we already do this, but they need to be updated and made more accessible.

21:10:37 HeartHawk -> FYI to all - You can expand your display to full screen by clicking the icon that looks like two windows (bottom of message display) - much easier to read and follow the chat!

21:11:19 Dr. Davis -> Hi, David--Only one new study relating vitamin D blood levels to prevalence of aortic stenosis: the higher the vitamin D above 30 ng/nl, the less likely aortic stenosis will develop. But that's all there is beyond the experience I talk about and have not yet published.

21:11:38 lconnolly -> Dr Davis, What lab do you send your lp(a)'s to. I understand that you prefer ng/mmol, most reasearchers use this method. I don't understand why and where to order.

21:12:19 Dr. Davis -> Hi, LC--We use the Liposcience laboratory, the same one for NMR.

21:12:41 js -> With a change to crestor from lipitor and then added niacin, my sugar no. has gone up by 20-30 points.

21:13:09 Barkeater -> Doc, do you ever see regression in plaque with LDL-P left at high levels (ala KJimmy Moore)?

21:13:19 lconnolly -> Liposcience uses mg/dl for lp(a)

21:13:33 Dr. Davis -> wow. That's a lot from Crestor. Dr. BG on the Forum used to express great concern over the blood sugar/insulin implications of Crestor. I've not seen changes of this magnitude, but I suppose it is entirely possible.

21:13:40 chickadeenorth -> One thing I would find helpful is what supplements are presently being pursued by TYP, especially if you've been awhile away. Like are people still using l arginine. Just different supp. being used and if have been removed Zeita? I read tons of posts to stay on this if have been away but would make it easier:)

21:14:08 freeheelers -> How do you treat high Lp(a)? My mother's Lp(a) is over 260, with normal cholesterol, crp, homocysteine. She tried 1500 mg Niacin, but it increased her HbA1C to over 6.0%, and did not change her Lp(a). What do you know about high dose Vitamin C, L-Lysine and L-Proline to treat?

21:14:13 Dr. Davis -> Lc--I've sent literally thousands of samples to Liposcience and, for the past 3-4 years, they've all been nmol/L.

21:14:34 HeartHawk -> my fasting level is OK but my post prandial numbers are pre-diabetic with borderline HbA1c (5.9) Off niacin for months now and testing tomorrow

21:15:28 Dr. Davis -> Free--Best to see our Special Report on Unique Strategies for Lp(a). However we've been having unexpectedly good results in about 60% of people with high dose fish oil: EPA + DHA 6000 mg. We've also had good results with DHEA, usually starting at about 15 mg up to 50 mg per day. Thyroid normalization is crucial, also, an approach that includes attention to T3.

21:15:45 HeartHawk -> Ahhh the Linus Pauling approach to Lp(a)!

21:16:03 Dr. Davis -> We've used the Rath/Pauling vitamin C, lysine, proline only sporadically, but have never seen any effect on Lp(a).

21:16:15 HeartHawk -> Thyroid and high dose fish oil cut my Lp(a) 50%

21:16:35 christinaw -> Are you testing all your patients for glucose levels? What percentage of patients have you found that are pre-diabetic or diabetic without them being aware of it?

21:16:39 Dr. Davis -> The thyroid effect, like all things Lp(a), is highly variable. But it can be quite significant.

21:17:01 Barkeater -> Was there a problem with Armour Thyroid and has it been worked out?

21:17:27 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Chris--A frightening percentage. About 60% of new patients will show pre-diabetes, occasionally full diabetes without their knowledge. Even worse, people showing evidence for insulin resistance is probably topping 90%.

21:17:32 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Bark--

21:17:36 HeartHawk -> Get a BG meter (cheap) and test. I discovered my problem just through dumb curiousity

21:18:05 anne -> When is the best time to add T3? I have been lowering my dose of Synthroid to get my TSH closer to 1, but my T3 remains low. New blood test drawn today.

21:18:15 Dr. Davis -> My sister actually works for Forest Labs, but she simply tells me the same thing the official reports say: They stopped production to reformulate the original reformulation that triggered many complaints of reduced potency.

21:18:32 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Anne--You mean what time of day?

21:18:34 js -> Dr Davis, re my calcium score scan I was advised by the cardiologist that the plaque in the left artery is very typical for diabetic or prediabetics -- she said it was a typical pattern. Is that so?

21:19:07 HeartHawk -> What if all my familial heart attack deaths were just that we were too stupid to figure out we were diabetic! TEST!

21:19:11 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Js--Nonsense! No more than coronary disease is typical for aging. Please do not accept that narrow-minded answer.

21:19:12 anne -> No when to start it. Should I wait until my TSH is optimal?

21:19:56 Dr. Davis -> Anne--Well, my view is that, if T3 is low, regardless of TSH, add T3. You will feel happier, have more energy, lose weight more readily, have lower LDL and Lp(a).

21:20:01 Braveheart -> My Pimary Care Doc heard Robt. Superko blast Slo-Niacin at a conference and wondered if you are aware and why he prefers Niaspan over Slo-Niacin/

21:20:33 HeartHawk -> I had a below range Free T3 with a TSH of 1.14 - Throw TSH out the window in my opinion

21:20:42 anne -> Thanks - need more energy but my weight is good.

21:20:55 freeheelers -> How long after starting high-dose fish oil and DHEA would you recommend re-checking Lp(a)?

21:21:04 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Brave--I don't know why Superko would blast Sloniacin. However, I can say that many people confuse slow-release niacin with Sloniacin. Sloniacin is an unfortunate name, an unintentional error. Sloniacin releases in a pattern similar to Niaspan.

21:21:41 mimi42 -> My lipid specialist says he gets better results with Slo-Niacin than Niaspan.

21:21:54 Braveheart -> Thanks - I will relay that to him.

21:22:01 goldie102 -> I am a new member after having recieved my latest scan. I have been growing plaque between 20 -24% per yr for the past 8 yrs. I am not familiar with all the blood numbers cholest= 100,hdl= 56l Ldl=36 trig 46 exercise 1.5 hrs a week and maintain a low fat diet . 52 yr old male plaque at 515 from 80 in 2001

21:22:02 Dr. Davis -> Free--I would wait a minimum of 3, preferably 6 months. While we have not conducted time studies of the effects, my gut sense is that it takes several months for fish oil, faster for DHEA.

21:22:45 freeheelers -> Many anti-aging specialists recommend an HbA1C below 5.1%. What do you think is optimal to influence the reversal of plaque?

21:22:48 davidgrantmartin -> Thanks for the info about a recent study involving aortic valve stenosis and vitamin D. Could you give me an author's name or part of the title or the journal? I'd like to search out the article.

21:23:00 Dr. Davis -> Goldie--Be sure to address 1) vitamin D normalization, 2) thyroid normalization, 3) EPA + DHA 3000 mg per day from fish oil, and 4) assess for small LDL and Lp(a). That would be a solid start.

21:23:16 lconnolly -> LP(a) and hormones..... I think the success tha you getting is from conversion to DHEA to either estrogen or testosterone. Given the unregulated nature of nutriceuticals I prefer to use E2 or T. Unfortunately, it appears to me that E2 benefits the men and the women have a lesser benefit. Women with low libido and high LP(a) may benefit from a touch of low dose biweekly androgel. My experience with 7 keto DHEA is than it doesn't decrease lp(a). Supposedly 7 keto DHEA is not metabolized int

21:23:49 chickadeenorth -> So its been hard for me to get my doc to exam my thryoid as TSH progressive is 1.76mU/l and norm here is 0.2-4.0) and thats gone up sicne July from 1.13, then the F Thyroxine free is 11.3pmol/l and norm is 7.5 to 21.

21:24:12 chickadeenorth -> But assuming as I covnert the lab resutls are still high and my TSH should be udner 1.

21:24:14 HeartHawk -> Goldie - you sound like me and I actually had a few years where I stopped growth. I'm thinking more and more it is undiagnosed hypothyroidism and pre-diabetes that starts to raise its ugly head as we get older

21:24:17 Dr. Davis -> Hi, David--Sorry, but not at my fingertips. For any study, however, go to, the National Library of Medicine, and enter relevant search terms, such as "aortic valve" and "vitamin d" and that should locate the study.

21:25:15 anne -> Any new info on Krill Oil vs fish oil

21:25:18 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Chick--You may need to locate an alternative type practitioner to work out thyroid issues. Are there such people in your area?

21:25:27 mimi42 -> How do we raise Free T 3

21:26:25 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Anne--There's a little new data that suggests that the phospholipid vehicle of krill enhances delivery of EPA + DHA. But I am still not convinced, since the original study published on lipid effects of krill is not proving to play out in real life. The study was also paid for by Neptune, the patent holder. No different than the biased studies that tend to emit from the pharmaceutical industry.

21:26:50 freeheelers -> Any information on Seanol (also known as Alginol)? Stephen Sinatra and Robert Rowen have been pushing this as heart essential.

21:27:06 HeartHawk -> Armour Thyroid, cytomel, or even levothyroxine if that is all you can get your endo to prescribe. But be careful with T3 products! VERY potent stuff

21:27:13 Dr. Davis -> Mimi--While there are emerging studies suggesting that the flavonoid, kaempferol, may increase T3, we've not tried it. For the time being, we're left with taking either T3 or a combination tablet, like Armour thyroid, that includes T3.

21:27:32 Dr. Davis -> Free--Please refresh my memory: What is in seanol?

21:27:51 mimi42 -> I continued to stay very low on Armour. I'm now on Synthroid. Still low.

21:28:12 Dr. Davis -> I personally take 25 mcg T3 every morning, since I cannot get my Armour or Naturethroid temporarily like everyone else.

21:28:36 js -> How long does it take to start seeing results from the addition of Armour's to a dose of Synthroid?

21:28:37 mimi42 -> Is it prescription?

21:28:44 Dr. Davis -> Mimi--The t3 is available in such low doses, e.g., 5 mcg, that you can have your doc prescribe it with very little chance of adverse effects.

21:28:45 lconnolly -> Mimi, supplement. If armour thyroid won't do it adequately, cytomel take it in the morning. Start at 5mcg. Up every 3 months prn.

21:29:10 Dr. Davis -> Js--By what measure? Blood levels? Energy? LDL? Lp(a)?

21:29:14 HeartHawk -> Seanol is a supposed high-potency anti-oxidant that has been making extravagant claims (alge derivative)

21:29:32 lconnolly -> Dr Davis, What is your take on reverse T3?

21:29:41 goldie102 -> I take 3,000 niaspan 10 mil of lipitor Lp(a)=6 , LDL4=4,LDL3=28 LDL2=16 LDL1=7 LDL pattern a/b . Did Heart Hawk say you stopped your plaque growth?

21:29:42 js -> Energy, weight loss - and isn't it supposed to contribute to improved overall cholesterol profile?

21:30:23 Dr. Davis -> Ok. Sorry, don't know anything about Seanol. However, we've got to be careful with any set of claims with antioxidation. Crazily, some of the most potent antioxidants around are oleic acid from olive oil and melatonin. But they don't stir up as much marketing enthusiasm.

21:30:42 HeartHawk -> Yes in second year of program but had unexplained growth afterwards. Now it looks like is thyroid and pre-diabetes.

21:31:12 chickadeenorth -> Yes I can see an alternative doc if go to Edtmn, 3 hr away but have been thinking of it as I do believe I have a thyroid issue. My mom did many yrs ago, isnt there some familial aspect, sorry for typos, hit send key accidentally without proof reading.

21:31:28 Dr. Davis -> Lc--Reverse T3 is an issue. However, it is not one we've fussed with much. I believe that, as long as you are watching measures outside of T3, such as oral temperatures in a.m., and how you feel, then it is reasonable to dose thyroid to perceived symptoms.

21:31:29 christinaw -> Dr. Davis, do you think 3 months is enough time to see if take 3 drops of IOSOL has raised my free T3, wich is on the low side of normal? I sure feel more energetic and happy on the increased iodine, which is quite a bit....3 drops is almost 6 mg.

21:31:49 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Chris--That's great. 3 months should be just enough time.

21:32:08 chickadeenorth -> Sorry HH about the diabetes, have you ever done an A1C?

21:32:21 freeheelers -> Would you treat thyroid if TSH is 2.6 and T3 is 270 (>280 PG/D being normal)? I hear treating hypothyroidsim could worsen SVTs.

21:32:22 HeartHawk -> yes 5.9

21:32:50 Dr. Davis -> HeartHawk raises an important issue: If plaque is controlled initially, only to start increasing again, think thyroid.

21:33:02 HeartHawk -> Diagnosis id impaired glucose tolerance not frank diabetes

21:33:20 chickadeenorth -> ya but not much diff really hey HH

21:33:34 Dr. Davis -> Free-As long as treatment is low-dose and slow, the vast majority of people can do fine. It's only when you start to get overtreated that rhythms like SVT can be unleashed.

21:34:53 HeartHawk -> Also, test for TPO and TG antibosies, if you have Hashimotos thyroiditis you can have flares that overproduce endogenous T3/T4 making medication tricky until your thyroid finally "dies"

21:35:04 HeartHawk -> antibodies

21:35:15 Dr. Davis -> Here's a crazy observation that I've seen in about 5 people with Lp(a): There seem's to be an excessive tendency towards abnormalities of blood sugar. But just an observation, no data.

21:35:26 lconnolly -> How and when do you use Apo E4? Do you consider only E4/E4 a risk or E3/E4?

21:35:31 HeartHawk -> YEAH -ME!! LOL!

21:36:00 chickadeenorth -> yes me too

21:36:20 HeartHawk -> Well there's at least 2!

21:36:22 chickadeenorth -> when BG low my lp(a) was lower

21:36:27 Dr. Davis -> Lc--Both are risks for 1) heart disease, 2) sensitivity to fat intake. I tend to order apo E when there is excessive response to fat intake or excessive diabetic tendency (E2).

21:36:39 HeartHawk -> HMMMM!

21:36:42 sergad -> I have been on .25 grain of compounded Armour. I have been taking for 2 months and still get the jitters now and then. I also tried kelp with the same side effect. Is there something else I could try?

21:36:51 davidgrantmartin -> Thanks for the tip on searching! I just did a quick search and found fascinating stuff on vitamin d.

21:37:13 mimi42 -> I used to have low blood sugar. Now I'm always above normal in fasting BG. HGA1C is 6.1 and I do have LP(a), although I'm now down to 26. Hooray.

21:37:21 steve1 -> if there is fat sensitivity, APO E4, in what way do you modify TYP diet recommendations

21:37:21 asharpvol -> My T3 is at the bottom of the range and I am allways cold. Doc prescribed compouned C-liothyronine 10 MCG. I have bee non it for 2-3 weeks but notice no difference.

21:37:28 Dr. Davis -> Serg--If you are responding to iodine, you might consider 1) low-doses and build up gradually, and 2) make sure with your doctor that you don't have an overactive nodule that overresponds to iodine.

21:37:28 HeartHawk -> sergad - had same problem when I first started kelp - now OK - in fact my digestion is MUCH better with the kelp

21:37:46 HeartHawk -> WEIRD!

21:38:06 lconnolly -> Mimi congratulations.

21:38:20 christinaw -> Do doctors misdiagnose familial hypercholesterimia (spelling?) when people have high numbers, and the docs just think they are eating too much fat? How long does it take usually to lower a LDL of 275 mg with 10 mg of Crestor and a low-carb diet? (not me, thankfully, but a relative)

21:38:27 Dr. Davis -> Steve-Nothing formal, just advice to not engage in an unlimited fat diet. Go light on nuts, meats, oils, but don't avoid them. It is usually not a large effects.

21:38:32 chickadeenorth -> I could order Armour from USA but am nervous without doc's approval as she needs to order all my lab work.

21:38:47 Braveheart -> Will the transcript of this session be posted on the website? Tried to refer back to an earlier portion and can't scroll back from current page.

21:39:03 HeartHawk -> YES we'll have transcript posted within 48 hours!

21:39:05 Dr. Davis -> Chris--Yes, undoubtedly. Crestor will reduce LDL in about 2 weeks. Low-carb diet much longer, on the order of months, depending on weight changes.

21:39:10 js -> dr davis, would kelp substitute for armour thyroid?

21:39:36 Braveheart -> Thanks - you are the best!!

21:39:48 Dr. Davis -> Chick--Are your practitioner choices limited in your area? Are you still in Canada?

21:40:04 steve1 -> could you explain what you mean by particle normalization; how does that occur in light of genetic small LDL

21:40:28 Dr. Davis -> Js--No. Kelp only supplies iodine, which may or may not improve thyroid function. If thyroid function remains low on iodine, then actual thyroid hormone supplementation may be necessary.

21:40:42 Dr. Davis -> Sorry, Steve, I didn't understand.

21:40:56 mimi42 -> Could I ask again about low LDL of 35. LDL P is 390 and APO B is low at 32.

21:40:56 HeartHawk -> Brave: Tell my wife, LOL!

21:41:24 steve1 -> ok; what is meant by LDL particle normalization. I think you mentioned this in a forum post. thanks

21:41:26 Dr. Davis -> Mimi--All suggest you are overtreated. They do not have to be that low.

21:41:49 Braveheart -> Hawk- Don't you tell her all the time?

21:42:02 mimi42 -> Thanks.

21:42:10 HeartHawk -> Brave: You know me SO well!

21:42:10 Dr. Davis -> Steve--I might have been referring to normalizing LDL particle size, i.e., increasing size.

21:42:27 gonetokiowa -> hate to change the subject but i read an article on the endo pat ? test today . claims it is a better predictor of heart disease in women

21:42:45 chickadeenorth -> Yes in Canada for a month more, she is open and smart but rigid about thyroid as my results are within norm, I see her tomorrow, should I ask for TPO and TG antibodies or ????

21:43:16 HeartHawk -> IMHO you NEED to know if you have Hashimotos

21:43:20 Dr. Davis -> We've looked into EndoPat. It is an alternative way to judge endothelial function, similar to looking at the brachial artery diameter with ultrasound. However, in this instance, EndoPat looks at blood flow in the fingertip.

21:43:29 HeartHawk -> Only TPO and TG will tell you

21:43:39 chickadeenorth -> She has tried to get me all the tests you do here its just the labs dont do them like NMR.And she seems set thyroid isnt an issue?

21:44:10 Dr. Davis -> Chick--The antibodies probably won't help your case. They only make the diagnosis once thyroid function is either high or low.

21:44:25 anne -> Any downside of taking Krill oil with fish oil? Krill oil has made a big difference in my skin dryness.

21:44:34 HeartHawk -> Endopat sounds a littel fishy but havent studied it enough Here is the link

21:45:00 Dr. Davis -> I tell patients and their doctors that we are NOT looking for flagrant, advanced thyroid dysfunction. We are looking for the most subtle beginnings of thyroid function, a much more difficult decision.

21:46:04 Dr. Davis -> Unfortunately, Endopat hurts like crazy, just like the brachial artery method of measuring endothelial function, since both require inflation of a BP cuff to 300 mmHg (all the way up!) for 5 minutes until your arm turns blue.

21:46:26 chickadeenorth -> so what tests should I ask for tomorrow...t3...t4...tpo?

21:46:34 Barkeater -> I will pass on the Endopat.

21:46:37 lconnolly -> Chich, maybe just get your free T3, free T4, and give her a copy of the HUNT study. Ask her, if you took a pediatric dose of synthroid and your TSH stayed in the low normal range, there couldn't be any harm. That would probably work.

21:46:40 steve1 -> is it possible in cases of small LDL paritcle size that when D, Thyroid, weight all ok that best strategy is just to keep them as low as possible even if it means statins in tolerable doses, and other drugs such as niacin or Zetia as tolerated?

21:47:00 HeartHawk -> I repeat I had a TSH of 1.14 with a low Free T3 - TSH wasnt worth a damn in my case. My highest TSH was only 4.5 and I had clear TG and TPO antibodies

21:47:18 chickadeenorth -> thnx lcl

21:47:46 freeheelers -> HOw do I convince the cardiologist that low thyroid function increases plaque? Any studies, or still indidental?

21:47:49 gonetokiowa -> ya'll keep talking about the t3 i had thyroid test 2 mo ago tsh .5 anibodies were 479 norm is ,

21:47:51 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Steve--Yes, that sounds reasonable. Sometimes the best efforts fail to eliminate small LDL, which is usually the case in "genetic small LDL." In this situation, an effort to minimize small LDL and TOTAL LDL can help.

21:48:28 chickadeenorth -> so HH you think I should ask for all 4 tests and be bit more assertive with her?

21:48:28 freeheelers -> Oops, sorry, I meant "incidental" not "indidental"

21:48:48 HeartHawk -> Read all about it, send it to your thyroid doc

21:49:00 js -> Dr Davis -- is there any data showing that diabetics have a higher instance of plaque?

21:49:00 Dr. Davis -> Free--The HUNT study provides the best data. (Cited in the thyroid Special Reports.) Also, Rotterdam Heart Study. All relate low thyroid of the most minimal degree with doubling or tripling of cardiovascular events.

21:49:11 Dr. Davis -> Js--Yes, several studies.

21:49:53 Erin -> Dr Davis: Husband's latest labs - Vit D 87, Trig 73, HDL 65, but LDL 210. LDL only came down 4% after TYP diet for 9 months. We're in Canada, so only have standard lipid panel. Would 5mg Crestor every other day & 500 IR Niacin be reasonable for this level of LDL? Husband has A1C of 5.4 and fasting glucose of 97 so worried about blood sugars going up as well. He had previous joint & muscle pain on Lipitor.

21:50:09 lconnolly -> Dr Davis, How and when do you use HSCRP and LPPLA2?

21:50:16 steve1 -> to what extent have you seen niacin affect thyroid levels. While on Niacin my TSH jumped from 1.9 to 3.0. Did not feel well and eliminated the Niacin and thereafter it dropped to 2.3. T3 was below bottom of range while on Niacin and increased within range when off Niacin. Perhaps i have a sensitivity to it as it drove my particles way done in matter of weeks.

21:50:18 Dr. Davis -> Js--There are also data relating features of the metabolic syndrome with heart scan scores:The more features of the metabolic syndrome you have (low HDL, high triglycerides, high BP etc.), the more like you have a higher heart scan score.

21:50:40 gonetokiowa -> sorry hit wrong buton norm is less yhan 35 ,but they did not do a t3 should i get one was told i am probably developing hashimoto

21:51:31 HeartHawk -> goneto: Probably? Did they test TG and TPO antibodies?

21:51:34 Dr. Davis -> Hi, Erin--Yes that would be reasonable. However, it might REALLY be enlightening to see a true measured LDL value, e.g., LDL particle number. It might change your approach entirely.

21:52:20 js -> Dr Davis -- please what would be the preferred range of T3 for plaque purpose -- I know it is on this site somewhere.

21:52:25 Dr. Davis -> Steve--I can't say I've ever seen an effect of niacin on thyroid measures. That would be unusual.

21:52:26 gonetokiowa -> tpo was 479 norm is ,35

21:52:39 sergad -> were there any thoughts about anne's question about taking krill oil along with fish oil?

21:52:41 chickadeenorth -> I can't get an ldl particle number, is there a different name. Erin I live in Ab.

21:52:45 freeheelers -> This is my first chat and still learning to use the TYP website. Is there a specific place on the website that I can find all tests recommended for TYP?

21:52:50 Erin -> Thnak you, we are thinking of trying to get NMR or VAP if we come to USA for 2 week vacation.

21:52:50 HeartHawk -> Yikes, yup you got Hashis! (Me too)

21:52:54 lconnolly -> Gone to: High anti

21:52:56 Dr. Davis -> Preferred T3 range is upper half of the provided "reference range," which differs from lab to lab.

21:54:14 Dr. Davis -> Free--The Program Builder is probably the best place to start. We clearly need better tools for our newcomers just joining the program. These should be coming.

21:54:16 chickadeenorth -> HH jsut so you know I hear ya and will follow up on it

21:54:25 Erin -> Hi Chick: Us too, we are in Calgary, AB. Very frustrating with the limitations on lab tests here!

21:55:02 Dr. Davis -> Erin and Chick--How difficult was it getting heart scans in Canada?

21:55:13 lconnolly -> Gone to: High anti TPO, normal TSH, FREE T3, FREE T4, asympotomatic, would put me on a low dose of selenium, maybe 100-200mcg. Decreases antiTPO.

21:55:53 Erin -> $500 here in Calgary for a heart scan

21:55:53 Dr. Davis -> Lc--Be sure to have your doctor monitor thyroid, as the inflammatory condition might leave you with declining thyroid function over the years.

21:55:56 chickadeenorth -> Yes I went to U of A lab even as read of a cardio there who practsied low carb but still they said they dont do it until proven "clinically and scientifically"....duh

21:56:21 chickadeenorth -> scans fine, could go same day but siocne preventive I paid

21:56:23 freeheelers -> Can you recommend a cardiologist in the Denver area with an approach similar to yours?

21:56:42 chickadeenorth -> if doc deeemd i needed it then wouldnt have to pay

21:56:45 HeartHawk -> YEah Proven 20 years to late for us SHEESH!

21:56:52 Barkeater -> Is poor thyroid associated with any inflammation marker, such as HS-CRP or Homocystiene?

21:56:56 Braveheart -> Erin and Chick: I would think just living AB. would heal you. Wanna trade for a while?

21:57:36 Dr. Davis -> Free--No, not in Denver. But our TYP friend, Bill Blanchett, is in Boulder. While Dr. Blanchett is not deeply involved in prevention, he is smart and well aware of what we are doing.

21:57:40 chickadeenorth -> why the tar sands Bark LOL

21:57:42 js -> Dr Davis -- preferred dose of L-argininie (spelling?) ?

21:57:50 chickadeenorth -> I paid $400 in Edtmn

21:57:53 Dr. Davis -> Bark--Yes, indeed. Big increases in homocysteine.

21:59:01 lconnolly -> Finally, a decent way to treat hyperhomocysteinemia!

21:59:11 Dr. Davis -> Js--We usually start with 6000 mg twice a day on an empty stomach. However, I regard l-arginine as an optional supplement. More recently, many people have succeeded without it. I credit this to vitamin D, another agent that induces endothelial normalization.

21:59:52 Dr. Davis -> Lc--In fact, it makes you wonder if much of the lack of effect of B vitamins on homocysteine is because it was mild hypothyroidism for many people, not some deficiency of B6, B12, or folate.

21:59:55 christinaw -> I cut out the morning l-arginine and my blood pressure went up an average of 10 pts, so back on it. I eat some homemade cocoa coconut cookies (only 1.4 carbs each) but I haven't seen blood pressure lowering from them.

22:00:10 chickadeenorth -> see my homocysteine went up a tad, I am pushing for thyroid tests tomorrow.MY CRP went from 0.08 to 2.3 in 6 months but thought it was H pyloria and severe parasitic infection but bet its thyroid!!

22:00:17 Dr. Davis -> Yes, l-arginine is a reasonably effective antihypertensive.

22:00:24 js -> Dr Davis -- I am taking 6000 units of Vit D -- should I supplement that with L-Arginine 6000 mg as well?

22:00:58 Barkeater -> Doc - Do you see utility in Ox-LDL testing for TYP purposes?

22:00:59 Braveheart -> free: I live in Denver and have a pretty savy Internist as my primary Doc - so I rely on TYP and Dr. Davis for a lot of guidance. I have not seen Blanchett in Boulder but aware he is a close resource.

22:01:13 HeartHawk -> THe compendium of TYP reports on L-Arginine

22:01:27 Dr. Davis -> Js--I think that the advantages of l-arginine added on top of current TYP strategies are: 1) further BP reduction, and 2) enhanced erectile capacity. Otherwise, in the most up to date version of TYP, l-arginine is optional.

22:01:33 freeheelers -> Braveheart: Do you mind sharing your Internist

22:01:41 freeheelers -> Braveheart:

22:02:26 lconnolly -> Dr. Davis, DO you tease apart those with high homocysteine into the MTHFR carriers ? Do you ever treat with B vits? Or just check thyroid and boost HDL?

22:02:41 chickadeenorth -> so will it enhance my erticle capacity?

22:03:42 Braveheart -> free: What is your email or phone #? I will contact you.

22:03:48 christinaw -> Dr. Davis, you mentioned in post before about lipid levels changing easily. I wonder how easily?? Say, if I eat a really high fat meal, how much would that possible affect the next days lipids?

22:03:56 lconnolly -> Chick, vaginal engorgement in your case.

22:03:58 Dr. Davis -> Lc--Having fussed over homocysteine for 20 years, I am now at a loss at how to best manage this issue, given the 7 trials now showing no cardiovascular event reduction with B vitamin supplementation. Correcting thyroid is a basic minimum. I've not assessed MTHFR variants, so no firsthand experience. I still treat high homocysteines over 15 mmol, but I cannot easily justify it.

22:05:06 Dr. Davis -> Chris--Different measures respond with different time courses. LDL, if measured, can respond quite quickly and will indeed reflect recent fat intake. Friedewald calculated LDL, however, will not.

22:05:14 gonetokiowa -> is there any new diet info for typ

22:05:15 chickadeenorth -> OK, thnx, but l'arginie tastes like rat posion....Erin I have thought of getting NMR if in USA but where would you get the lab req from as dont know if you can just drop in without doc order or would you ask doc in Canada to write it.

22:06:20 Dr. Davis -> Gone--We will be exploring the world of postprandial reactions in detail coming soon. This will likely change our overall approach to fat intake, as postprandial lipoproteins, such as chylomicron remnants, have a substantial effect on plaque. More to come.

22:06:28 lconnolly -> I agree, it is almost not worth checking.

22:07:20 js -> Does chromium have any role in plaque -- there is claim that it helps diabetes

22:07:30 chickadeenorth -> so is it almost not worth taking folic acid, I have been on 1 gr since age 40 and now coming 60!! HOMO IS 6.9.

22:07:31 Dr. Davis -> Okay, my eyes are getting buggy looking at the screen. We had a great turnout! I hope you found tonite's discussions helpful.

22:07:47 freeheelers -> Braveheart:worried about posting e-mail adress in chat room.

22:07:51 js -> thnaks!

22:07:57 gonetokiowa -> Thanks Dr. D

22:08:03 chickadeenorth -> THNX DR D

22:08:03 slimjohn -> Thanks! Do it again!!!!!

22:08:06 z448505 -> Dr Davis Good evening-

22:08:11 freeheelers -> Dr. Davis: YOU ARE AWESOME!

22:08:12 anne -> Thanks Dr. D.

22:08:14 Barkeater -> Three cheers for Dr. D and TYP.

22:08:31 chickadeenorth -> and thnx HH for all you do:)

22:08:35 lconnolly -> Thank you so much. When you help me, you help allll of my patients.

22:08:35 Erin -> Thanks so much Dr Davis! Chick, you can email me at

22:08:37 Dr. Davis -> Our near-term plans for TYP include more interactive episodes like this Chat. If you have any suggestions for how to improve our program, be sure to email us or discuss in the Forum. Also, if anyone hasn't visited the TYP Forum, please do so: It's where the action is! Good night, everyone.

22:08:46 Braveheart -> freeheelers; me too.

22:08:54 mimi42 -> Thanks. I love TYP and of course you, Dr. Davis.

22:09:08 HeartHawk -> ANy ideas I'll stick around!

22:09:22 chickadeenorth -> ya i have one

22:09:26 HeartHawk -> shoot

22:09:42 chickadeenorth -> it must be alot of work typing ehre at end of day for Dr D

22:09:49 chickadeenorth -> oops not spell chekcing

22:10:10 HeartHawk -> yeah he REALLY works hard - Davis is a freakin machine!

22:10:26 chickadeenorth -> anyhow on bernstiens we have web seminar and we submit questions ahead of time then he reads them and answers them, would that be easier

22:10:44 chickadeenorth -> or is it harder or costlier to set up

22:10:58 HeartHawk -> yeah this gets a little nuts - good idea - I'll promote it to Davis

22:11:04 Barkeater -> Adios muchachos!

22:11:06 chickadeenorth -> jsut thinking how time consuming it is to type and read and monitor all of us

22:11:14 HeartHawk -> cya bark

22:11:15 anne -> I like the Bernstein Webinars

22:11:25 chickadeenorth -> nite nite all off to eat my spinach lasagne:)

22:11:33 HeartHawk -> LOL!

22:11:40 anne -> Enjoy and good night

22:11:42 chickadeenorth -> ya me too Ann, to find me key in

22:11:49 HeartHawk -> ANy other ideas for TYP?

22:12:26 chickadeenorth -> I have hard time after running my B&B and missing the forum all summer ctahcing up on new drugs or supplemetn sinfo

22:12:30 anne -> Jasper is a place I want to visit

22:12:31 Erin -> Chick, I will look that up. Nice to talk to fellow Albertan! Cheers.

22:12:42 chickadeenorth -> wondering if we ahd some kind of lsit where items could be added as successful

22:12:48 anne -> Was there in the 60's - beautiful

22:12:53 chickadeenorth -> thnx ann

22:13:01 HeartHawk -> Chick: NOt sure what u mean

22:13:18 chickadeenorth -> ok typing too fast so you can quit work for the day

22:13:38 chickadeenorth -> every yr on TYP I miss June till almsot Oct as i work 14 hr a day plus

22:13:54 HeartHawk -> How can we help?

22:14:09 HeartHawk -> We miss YOU!

22:14:15 chickadeenorth -> so when things9DRUGS) change I only know by reading all the posts voer the past four months

22:14:25 chickadeenorth -> SO IF THERE WAS A LSIT


22:14:56 chickadeenorth -> oops sorry

22:14:56 HeartHawk -> Ahhhh, kind of a list of what thinking changed on TYP, eh

22:15:09 chickadeenorth -> got new bilingual computer and hit caps key

22:15:16 chickadeenorth -> yes

22:15:20 chickadeenorth -> sorry

22:15:37 chickadeenorth -> like this fall when i ret'd i didnt see much posting about l arginie

22:15:43 chickadeenorth -> poked around

22:16:08 chickadeenorth -> tehn asked and found out it kind of slid to back burner whereas when i was there before it was a hot itme

22:16:20 HeartHawk -> got it

22:16:24 chickadeenorth -> same for asthraxin(spelling is worng)

22:16:31 HeartHawk -> yup

22:16:33 chickadeenorth -> ok so dont need to try more lol

22:16:56 Erin -> Heart- I forgot, did you try any Niacin to lower your LDL? If so how much & did it affect your fasting BG or A1C?

22:16:58 chickadeenorth -> I like to read all posts as get a feel for who bleogns now and like the info

22:17:24 HeartHawk -> Yeah Niacin helped but now I have a glucose problem

22:17:32 chickadeenorth -> but a chart would be nice, I know its more work for you

22:18:05 chickadeenorth -> niaspan helped me but gave me chest palpitaitons and gut reactions so severe thought was hvaing a ehart attack

22:18:08 HeartHawk -> We live to work but mostly we ALL work to live!

22:18:24 chickadeenorth -> do you think niaicn escalted glucose

22:18:32 HeartHawk -> Yeah it tore up my guts at first too - had to stop several times

22:19:10 chickadeenorth -> I have a sign by my front door, dont get too busy working you forget to make a life...but I dont always live it.

22:19:12 HeartHawk -> Dont know about the glucose - that is what I am currently trying to doscover - quot niacin in July - testing tomorrow!

22:19:21 HeartHawk -> quit

22:19:36 chickadeenorth -> so sicne off Niaspan I feel wayyyyyy better me too in July

22:19:38 Erin -> Husband is trying IR Niacin, slowly working up, started at 100mg, now up to 400 mg. Concerned that going over 750mg may affect blood sugar too much.

22:19:46 HeartHawk -> ALl I kno wis my glucose cpntrol went just short of diabetic

22:19:47 chickadeenorth -> but trig tripled!!! hdl dropped from 74 to 64

22:20:20 chickadeenorth -> thinking should restart and only go to 750

22:20:28 chickadeenorth -> ya I hear ya erin

22:20:35 HeartHawk -> We'll see what tests say - I also went low carb and lost a ton of weight I cannot afford to lose

22:20:52 chickadeenorth -> but HH didnt Dr D say not much effect until reach 1000mg

22:21:07 HeartHawk -> Yeah starts at about 1000mg

22:21:20 chickadeenorth -> oh HH so how do you manage that, I have enver ahd that prob!!

22:21:29 HeartHawk -> I will probably end up back at 1000 but was at 3000mg

22:21:40 chickadeenorth -> ya I recall you ahd hi dose

22:21:55 Erin -> Lipitor is a no go, Doctor wants him on 10mg Crestor every day. My thought was try 5 mg every other day and see how blood work is.

22:21:57 chickadeenorth -> erin why not use niaspan

22:22:14 HeartHawk -> I am WAY thin 134lbs at 5 foot 10 inches - Back up to 143 now

22:22:15 chickadeenorth -> is he on co enzyme 10 too erin

22:22:24 chickadeenorth -> wow HH

22:22:33 chickadeenorth -> wish we could meld LOL

22:22:40 HeartHawk -> I upped my CoQ10 t0 150mg twice a day

22:23:18 HeartHawk -> Yeah but I look like a concetration camp victim - people keep askin if I have cancer!

22:23:21 chickadeenorth -> I am doing 200 and no side effects and leg caces left

22:23:30 chickadeenorth -> aches

22:23:37 Erin -> He is not covered by Niaspan on our insurance, so IR release is inexpensive. No C0Q10 while on Lipitor, but he is on 100mg now.

22:23:41 chickadeenorth -> jeez HH what does DR d say to do

22:23:50 HeartHawk -> EAT!

22:23:56 chickadeenorth -> ya right

22:24:07 chickadeenorth -> but low carb you may not gain weight

22:24:17 chickadeenorth -> do you eat alot of meat

22:24:25 HeartHawk -> LOL! Nuts, protein, good fats - seeing nutritionist who wants me on 3000 calories a day

22:24:41 Erin -> Heart - you have same build as my husband, he is 5' 9" & about 132lbs now.

22:24:43 chickadeenorth -> oh my doc wrote i needed niapsan over niaicn and they covered it

22:24:44 HeartHawk -> I say yeah but what about glucose

22:25:08 HeartHawk -> Yup a scam, niaspan is covered here but sloniacin not

22:25:09 chickadeenorth -> ya i think glucose is the killer

22:25:38 chickadeenorth -> do you follow bernstiens info on bg

22:25:46 HeartHawk -> I think so too - I think my relative all developed diabetes or prediabetes and that is what led to their heart attacks - Thank god I got lucky and caught it

22:26:18 chickadeenorth -> have you considered metphomrin, mind you it can cssue weight loss in some

22:26:26 HeartHawk -> No, not much time to follow anybody else but Davis as I publish all his stuff and as I said he is a machine

22:26:47 chickadeenorth -> yupe my kid bro was ssut diagnsoed and i knew yr ago heaahd metabolic syndrome

22:27:05 HeartHawk -> I will eventually end up on the stuff I'll see what my HbAic says after tomorrow

22:27:12 chickadeenorth -> well Bernstein is the guru of diabetes as is davis for cardio

22:27:15 chickadeenorth -> IMHO

22:27:16 HeartHawk -> Got two nephews with Type !

22:27:18 HeartHawk -> !

22:27:20 HeartHawk -> 1

22:27:27 chickadeenorth -> gotcha

22:27:47 HeartHawk -> It is all linked together they are different manifestations of a systemic porblem

22:27:52 HeartHawk -> problem

22:27:59 HeartHawk -> IMHO

22:28:08 Erin -> Heart - good luck with your blood work.

22:28:16 chickadeenorth -> anyhow bersnetein and lots fehrs now say start out on insulin and give pancreas a break

22:28:17 HeartHawk -> Well, not so humble in my case, LOL

22:28:46 chickadeenorth -> I think so much is related to bg and B says you have the issue 20 yr before the diagnosis

22:28:49 Erin -> Chick - I will let you know if any luck on getting NMR or VAP when on vacation in USA in early spring.

22:28:54 HeartHawk -> Yeah but I don't like idea of stickin a needle in my leg everytime I eat, LOL!

22:29:02 chickadeenorth -> so damge is slwoly done and plague is slwoly grown

22:29:05 chickadeenorth -> in your belly

22:29:08 chickadeenorth -> it doesnt hurt

22:29:18 chickadeenorth -> then after few months ocne body and apocnreas rested

22:29:25 HeartHawk -> makes sense

22:30:01 HeartHawk -> If your problem is insulin production and not just crappy insulin ineffective insulin

22:30:03 chickadeenorth -> you aca go thru a honeymoon type phase and beta cells start roowkring good and if low carbing may be ok for long while

22:30:20 Erin -> goodnight all, thanks!

22:30:28 chickadeenorth -> no probably insulin insensitivty

22:30:30 chickadeenorth -> nite erin

22:30:36 HeartHawk -> I think I am making plenty of insulin it is just not working like it used to

22:30:57 HeartHawk -> Testing will tell!

22:31:47 chickadeenorth -> ya that insulin insensitivty

22:31:51 chickadeenorth -> good luck

22:31:57 chickadeenorth -> nite nite

22:32:00 HeartHawk -> Good to have you back for the winter!

22:32:07 chickadeenorth -> thnx:)

22:32:08 HeartHawk -> cya

22:32:16 chickadeenorth -> I have been back on T sicne back

22:32:22 chickadeenorth -> so it helps me

22:33:00 chickadeenorth -> I get careless in summer busting my butt

22:33:11 HeartHawk -> me too but i always come back

22:33:18 chickadeenorth -> take care, hope tests go ok, if need info on B let me know

22:33:23 chickadeenorth -> me too

22:33:46 HeartHawk -> say hello to santa - being so close, lol

22:33:54 chickadeenorth -> you are gonna be like the motherhen and last one to leave the chat?

22:34:01 HeartHawk -> yup

22:34:05 HeartHawk -> cant get enuf

22:34:16 chickadeenorth -> ya he's not delievering as he's smart, its too flippin cold LOL

22:34:17 HeartHawk -> it all about the people

22:34:26 HeartHawk -> lol

22:34:26 chickadeenorth -> ya

22:35:11 HeartHawk -> hey steve, you comin back or just late to the party

22:35:16 chickadeenorth -> I am waiting for call from Bob as he went out to test some gas sites and called me 3 hr ago to pick him up and now not called to tell me where

22:35:35 HeartHawk -> oh oh

22:35:40 chickadeenorth -> steve are you the steve that runs Dr B seminars

22:35:51 steve1 -> just came back; needed to leave, if over thanks to you and Dr. Davis

22:35:52 chickadeenorth -> ya hope they didnt go in ditch

22:36:08 HeartHawk -> yeah we just kickin around new ideas for TYP

22:36:13 steve1 -> Chick: i am not. good night to all

22:36:24 chickadeenorth -> anyhow best go

22:36:24 HeartHawk -> nite!

22:36:31 HeartHawk -> cYAS

22:36:58 HeartHawk -> ALL ALONE AND FEELIN BLUE! LOL

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