The Westman Diet

Dr. Eric Westman has been a vocal proponent of carbohydrate restriction to gain control over diabetes, as have Drs. Richard Bernstein, Mary Vernon, Richard Feinman, and Jeff Volek.

Several studies over the years have demonstrated that reductions in carbohydrate content of the diet yield reductions in weight and HbA1c (glycated hemoglobin, a reflection of average blood glucose over the preceding 60-90 days).

Among the more important recent clinical studies is a small experience from Duke University's Dr. Eric Westman. In this study, obese type 2 diabetics reduced carbohydrate intake to 20 grams per day or less: no wheat, oats, cornstarch, or sugars. Participants ate nuts, cheese, meats, eggs, and non-starchy vegetables.

After 6 months, average weight loss was 24.4 lbs, BMI was reduced from 37.8 to 34.4. At the end of the study, 95% of participants on this severe carbohydrate restriction reduced or eliminated their diabetes medications.

That was only after 6 months. Note that the ending BMI was still quite well into the obese range. Imagine what another 6-12 months would do, or achieving BMI somewhere closer to ideal.

Curiously, this idea of severe low-carbohydrate restriction to cure or minimize diabetes is not new. Sir William Osler, one of the founders of Johns Hopkins Hospital and author of the longstanding authoritative text, Principles and Practice of Medicine, advocated an diet identical to Dr. Westman's diet. So did Dr. Frederick Banting, discoverer of the pancreatic extract, insulin, to treat childhood diabetics. Before insulin, Banting and his colleagues at the University of Toronto used carbohydrate elimination (less than 10 g per day) to prolong the lives of children with diabetes.

This lesson was also learned many times during war time, when staples like bread were unavailable. The Siege of Paris in 1870 yielded cures for diabetes in many (or at least they stopped passing urine that tasted--yes, tasted--sweet and attracted flies), only to have it recur after the siege was over.

These are lessons we will have to relearn. As long as the American Diabetes Association and most physicians continue to advocate a diet of reduced fat, increased carbohydrate that includes plenty of "healthy whole grains," diabetics will continue to be diabetics, taking their insulin and multiple medications while developing neuropathy (nervous system degeneration), nephropathy (kidney disease and failure), atherosclerosis and heart attack, cataracts, and die 8 to 10 years earlier than non-diabetics.

All the while, we've had the combined wisdom from antiquity onwards: Carbohydrates cause diabetes; elimination of carbohydrates cures diabetes.

(This applies, of course, only to adult overweight type 2 diabetics, not type 1 or some of the other variants.)

Comments (71) -

  • Kris @ Health Blog

    3/26/2011 7:20:19 PM |

    It is absolutely ridiculous that doctors don't understand how to cure diabetes with a low-carb diet.

    This is just really basic biochem 101, carbs release insulin, and prolonged excess insulin causes insulin resistance, then diabetes.

    This seems so simple that almost anyone with any small knowledge of biology should understand it, yet the main diabetes experts in the world don't.

    I sometimes wonder if the "experts" don't want to give out simple solutions, since then half of them will eventually be unemployed and they won't be experts anymore. Kind of like how the oil companies obviously don't want us to invent renewable energy sources.

  • Anonymous

    3/26/2011 7:47:36 PM |

    Dr. Davis, just to nitpick for clarity,

    I'm assuming in the second paragraph "reductions in weight loss and HbA1c" is really meant to read "reductions in weight and HbA1c".

  • Jenny

    3/26/2011 8:31:26 PM |

    Sadly, what the studies show is that when these low carb weight
    loss studies are continued past six months, invariably the weight loss stops dead for most participants.

    This is true even in studies where the researchers tested for ketones in urine to ensure that people were eating what they said they were eating. The six month prolonged (and often permanent) stall is a repeatable low carb diet phenomenon.

    My own polls among the low carb community verify this finding. Most people with diabetes will report they easily drop 15-20% of starting weight on a low carb diet but after that weight loss often comes to a complete halt even in my sample population which was made up of people with diabetes who had continued to maintain A1cs in the 5% range.

    There are some lucky people for whom this won't be true, but they are a minority and tend to be male.

    Since they are enthusiastic and vocal you tend to run into them online. The people whose experience is more typical tend to blame themselves and keep quiet.  

    The real benefit of low carb dieting is in how it controls blood sugar. That effect will persist.

    But long term diets of all types, including the low carb diet, downregulate the metabolism in ways that make it progressively harder to lose weight.

    The big problem with posts like this one is that they raise false expectations--if you do well the first six months, a year later wow! That kind of false expectations eventually lead to frustration, feelings of failure, self-blame and almost inevitably diet failure and regain.

    I can't tell you how many people I've seen posting on online support groups who did well for those first six months but ended up crashing off their diets a year later because they couldn't lose any more weight.

    So after 13 years of observing people dieting with the low carb diet, I'm convinced that it's best to start the diet because of the blood sugar benefits--not with the dream of reaching what is all too often an unrealistic weight goal.

    Figure that you'll lose 15-20% of your starting weight (you'll lose more if you are very heavy). Maybe you will be one of the small number of lucky people who do much better, in which case it will be a lovely surprise.

    That way, you won't end up blowing off the diet once weight loss stops at a level where you still are much heavier than you had hoped to be.

  • justdoinglife

    3/26/2011 10:47:22 PM |

    The economics are not right for doctors to cure diseases. Healthy people do not come back until the next disease. Such is life. Doctor should only be paid for cures, when one exists.

    We need to take charge of our own health and stop eating sugar, grains, manufactured oils and eatable products. Get a bit of exercise most days, and live a bit.

    but what do I know

  • Susan

    3/27/2011 12:14:55 AM |

    My perception:  I live in the "Deep South", home of the most obese people in the world.  The frustration for many health care professionals is in the unwillingness of patients to significantly change their diet.  It seems culturally mandated for many people to eat a certain way.  I fear that most obese people in the south would rather take medications than adhere to a diet such as this.  We can hardly blame the health care industry for this.

  • Anonymous

    3/27/2011 1:12:07 AM |

    But what about the normal weight relatively young (41) type two diabetic?  (BMI 24)  Could I lose 20 pounds to be model slim?  Yeah. And I do eat low carb, although not 10 gram low carb.  And I have gotten my Hba1c to 5.4.  But, my insulin is crazy high, I hit 90 at my last glucose challenge.  I think it would be a big help if we acknowledged that diabetes is a SYMPTOM of a variety of related but not identical diseases.  Not everyone ate their way to diabetes, and while diet can totally help control symptoms, for me neither maintaining a proper weight nor controlling my carbs has solved the underlying problem, which seems to be a severe insulin resistance.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/27/2011 1:38:24 AM |

    Might Jenny's observation and Nigel's study reference be reconciled somewhat ? I'll tag on my disclaimer of being unqualified to judge low carb or specific diets; since I've never struggled with weight or diabetes, and am not a doctor.

    The study Nigel linked was done with all Kuwaiti subjects. In that country co-sanguinity in marriage is practised by +/- 54.3 % of Kuwaitis. And 1 in 5 are reported to be diabetic.

    The data is very admirable; my suggestion is that the data trend may not exactly transfer to a modern Caucasian population; which is essentially interbred from migration and war (rape). This may be why Jenny sees a +/- 6 month plateau among her respondents and the co-sanguine Kuwaitis saw changes continue for a year +.

    Genetic poly-morphisms influence fasting glucose (GCK, G6PC2 and MTNR1B), are implicated in Hb1Ac, triglyceride levels, HDL levels & so on. That said, I personally would try the low carb approach if I was diabetic.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/27/2011 1:47:27 AM |

    edit my previous text to read  "... cross-bred from migration ...." instead of inter-bred.

  • Stargazey

    3/27/2011 4:38:41 AM |

    Just personal experience here, but I'm a postmenopausal female and have lost 35% of my starting weight by doing low-carb. I've maintained that loss for four years. My BMI is 21.0.

    For me, the key to reaching goal was the realization that eventually calories start to count. Low-carb has a natural appetite-limiting effect, but it is not a perfect tool. For people like me who have rather robust appetites, it becomes necessary to keep track of carbs for health and calories for weight loss and weight maintenance.

    I wish low-carb weight loss were as quick and easy as Dr. Atkins made it out to be, but it's not. Prescription drugs, thyroid issues and exercise all factor into the equation, but after a certain amount of weight has been lost on low-carb, the sad fact has to be faced: calories count.

  • Peter

    3/27/2011 1:27:27 PM |

    I just read the article on the front page of the American Diabetic Association website where they compared the benefits of a low carb vs. low fat diet for diabetics, and they said the big advantage of the low carb diet was you can reduce or eliminate insulin.  It seems like this idea is getting more and more respect from mainstream medicine.

  • Gretchen

    3/27/2011 3:33:59 PM |

    I agree with Jenny that it's cruel to promise people that their diabetes will be "cured" by ANY treatment, including drugs, diet, exercise, or a combination of the above.

    It sets up unrealistic goals and is equivalent to the nurse who tells obese people that if they'd just lose 10 pounds their diabetes would "go away."

    It's simply not true. Type 2 diabetes is caused by faulty insulin-producing beta cells as well as insulin resistance, and that is often genetic.

    Some people in very early stages of diabetes, when they're still producing a lot of insulin, can return to near-normal blood sugar levels with various regimens. Low carbing is one.

    But if those people resume eating carbs, their blood sugars will go into diabetic ranges. They're not cured. They're just well controlled.

    I have type 2 and I'm on a LC diet to control blood sugar, but I also take metformin and inject a basal insulin once a day or my blood sugars will be higher (I'm not comfortable with fasting or premeal numbers over 100, which they can be without the insulin).

    I was diagnosed in late stage of type 2, and nothing we know about today will bring my beta cells back.

    Please don't promise people false cures.

  • Geoffrey Levens

    3/27/2011 4:05:14 PM |

    Anon posted "But what about the normal weight relatively young (41) type two diabetic? (BMI 24) Could I lose 20 pounds to be model slim? Yeah. And I do eat low carb, although not 10 gram low carb. And I have gotten my Hba1c to 5.4. But, my insulin is crazy high, I hit 90 at my last glucose challenge."

    Just sounds like insulin resistance to me.  Some causes are transient fat in blood stream from high fat meals (In my experience in my body, saturated fat is more of a culprit than unsaturated by a very large measure), excess body fat and lack of muscle (lots of people are what I call "skinny fat").  Low carb diet, in one sense bypasses the problem since w/ low carb you don't produce much blood sugar load at once so the insulin resistance makes little difference.

  • Geoffrey Levens

    3/27/2011 4:10:26 PM |

    I had fairly high postprandial readings (175-180's at one hour) and rising A1c.  Low carb per Bernstein made me feel terrible and worse the longer I did it though it did lower my sugar readings dramatically.  Now I eat a very high carb diet and about 30% fat (from whole, raw, seeds and nuts) but all the carbs are in high fiber veg and fruits and beans (with their resistant starch component)(occasional starchy veg and rarely whole grains NOT flour) and my one hour postprandials are in low 120's to teens and my most recent A1c was 4.7

  • Lori Miller

    3/27/2011 4:49:39 PM |

    My mother is a type 2, overweight diabetic. She's been helped tremendously by Dr. Davis's advice to eat low-carb and avoid wheat. But even on a VLC diet, her fasting blood sugar is typically in the 120s. Her diabetes was uncontrolled for 20 years, and her blood sugar was wonky for probably most of her adult life. She's never going to be back to normal.

  • LifeCoachAndy

    3/27/2011 6:05:26 PM |

    Excerpt, ' Experiments described in the medical literature have tested the effects of high-fat diets on insulin intolerance. In one study, healthy young medical students were fed a very high fat diet containing egg yolks, heavy cream, and butter, and within two days all of the students had blood sugar levels high enough to be labeled diabetic.1 Complex carbohydrates have been shown to have the opposite effect.

    Again I am not saying that low fat diet will work for everyone, but I think it worth trying, expecially if low car dose not work.

  • LifeCoachAndy

    3/27/2011 6:11:06 PM |

    Sorry my previous post was not posted so do it again,
    I think what people dont understand, that fat reduces insulin sensitivity and effectiveness, so when glucose and fat present inthe blood stream need much more insulin to maintain glucose homeostasis, and in many people even hyperinsulinaemia cannot compensate. Listen a few interviews with Dr. Delgado, dr. McDougle they explain it more clearly. When you keep your fat intake under 10%, the insulin is much more sensitive , sure you need to eat whole grain, proper carbs, and not junk cereals, breatds etc.
    However, low carb diet works when people restict carbs, so they are able to maintai low blood glucose,  but once they consume more carbs,  blood sugar goes sky high.

    Moreover, in some studies, has been shown, that when people eat fat diet, even pure sugar does not cause glucose spikes, as it is immediately regulated by insulin. , here i do not advocate eating sugar.
    Another study Hollenbeck C, Doner CC, Williams RA, Reaven GM. The effects of variations in percent of naturally occurring complex and simple carbohydrates on plasma glucose and insulin response in individuals with non-insulin dependent diabetes mellitus. Diabetes 1985; 34:151.

  • Darrell D.

    3/27/2011 8:48:06 PM |

    http://www.joe-cannon.com/home/wp/can-type-ii-diabetes-be-cured/comment-page-1/#comment-1394

    "I make the bold statement that type II diabetes can be cured because I care and I desperately want people to know the facts about type II diabetes that few people appear to have ever been told. I want people to know:

    "1. Type II diabetes will go away -and stay away – in most people who take care of their health.

    "2. Most people don’t have to get type II diabetes. Most type II diabetes is environmental  (eating too much and exercising too little).

    "3. Losing a little weight and getting some exercise every day – even 20 minutes a day – can make profound changes not only on type II diabetes, but how long that diabetic lives."

    Apparently Joe Cannon, personal trainer, whom I quote, believes most type 2s can be cured. Through 12 years of diabetes, type 2, I have exercised by ass off. I went from the typical ADA advice which didn't work for several years, to following Protein Power which brought management, to Dr. Berstein, which brought more and better management but didn't cure it. Found Dr. Davis's web site about 2 years ago and have been reading every post, becoming increasing radical in my approach. Dropped the steel cuts oats, added niacin, fish oil, you name it, I did it. Just ordered Dr. Ron Rosedale Diet because he says  diabetes can be cured in most cases. Okay, which radical approach is going to cure diabetes? I am one of your readers that is taking your words in your blog as a personal challenge. And I'm taking the personal trainer to task as well. I expect to be cured in six months (and am devoting six months to do that!) I expect you to continue to give fabuous advice, and as your experiment of one, I expect this to happen. I now have adopted the theme: "Diabetes is the Terminator"--it canot be reasoned with, doesn't show pity, and absolutely will not stop until you are dead!" Sorry if I sound desperate, but some of us are taking your words to heart!

  • Anonymous

    3/27/2011 10:49:45 PM |

    Type 2 diabetes will rise and rise until people stop overeating. I see it around me everyday. Obese friends/relatives. For the last 20 years I'v watched them live an unhealthy lifestyle. Now it is catching up on them. One relative, age 48 type 2 diabetic, and one friend diagnosed last year. Age 52. Both have not changed their diet since diagnosis. Each carries an average of 60 extra pounds.
    They were given nutritional guidance from a dietician, and I gave them websites to check out. Neither is interested in changing their lifestyle.

    They refuse to change. Period. I'm sure there are thousands more like them out there......

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/28/2011 3:51:02 AM |

    Fat is not all the same or always acting as we think. An unusual poly-petptide in the intestine is upregulated by fat; and it follows a diurnal rhythm (inactive at night).

    After "fasting" in response to
    the first meal the body synthesizes bile acids for digestion of fat intake. When their litocholic and chono-de-oxy-cholic acids hit the small intestine they
    interact with bile's Farnesoid X Receptor. This  upregulates Fibroblast Growth Factor 19 (FGF 19) in the intestines.

    FGF 19 cycle is at maximum 1.5 to 2 hours after the post-prandial bile production kicked off; and bile synthesis had largely came on and abated. If the breakfast had no fat content then FGF 19's "on" trigger of specific bile acids can be low.

    FGF 19 for it's part acts somewhat like a hormone; it integrates into a feed back loop. Humans have at least 22 different types of FGF with distinct action.

    FGF 19 acts in turn to upregulate the anti-diabetic protein Insulin-like Growth Factor BP2. So there is less insulin resistance and blood glucose levels drop.

    FGF 19 accelerates adaptive thermogenesis by  upregulating Uncoupling Protein 1 (UCP 1); the mitochondria energy gets "spilled" as heat. This makes the metabolic rate go higher and fatty acids are oxidized for energy.

    Weight gain from fat is, in this scenario, less; but mostly from less liver cell fat. There is increased fatty acid oxidation burning for useful energy, since the mitochondria energy supply shifted from ATP delivery.

  • revelo

    3/28/2011 4:05:23 AM |

    "Carbohydrates cause diabetes; elimination of carbohydrates cures diabetes."

    "Type 2 diabetes will rise and rise until people stop overeating."

    Stupid slogans like the above just confuse what is already a complex issue. To reiterate what has been said so many time, we have plenty of evidence of societies where carbs make up 65% or more of daily calories, but those societies show little obesity, diabetes, or heart disease, and they show long-life expectancy. The Japanese are a fine example of a developed society which eats a carb-based diet, and refined carbs at that, but doesn't have a diabetes epidemic. Clearly, carbs is NOT the problem.

    And just as clearly, plenty of fat type II diabetics want to lose weight, but they can't. It is perfectly realistic to ask people to suffer hunger for a few months while getting down to normal weight. What is not realistic is asking them to suffer for the rest of their lives. So the real question is, why is causing people to have such huge appetites? And that is not an easy question to answer.

    I grew up in the 1960's and everyone then was eating plenty of refined wheat, sugar and partially-hydrogenated vegetable oils, but people weren't fat like they are nowadays. Perhaps the manufacturers of processed foods have simply gotten much better at arranging fat, sugar and salt so as to make food irresistible. Perhaps it is a cultural thing: the same media brainwashing that has everyone wanting to supersize their house (McMansions) and car (SUV's) has them wanting to supersize their bodies as well. Perhaps the tendency towards obesity started after WWII, when food finally became cheap, and it simply took several generations for people to get accustomed to the idea of eating as much as they want, instead of treating food like something valuable not to be wasted. (Ever heard the expression "puts meat on the table?" Yes, there really was a time when an hour of labor at minimum wage didn't buy that much meat.)

    If there is a magic bullet to the diabetes epidemic, it will have to do with appetite suppression. My impression, based on my own experiences and observations of people around me, is that low-fat/high-carb is more effective in the long-run at curbing appetite than low-carb/high-fat, at least for most people. In other words, the convention wisdom is right.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/28/2011 5:37:28 AM |

    Japan obesity (BMI > 30 kg/m2) in 1990 - 1994  was nationally 3%. Japan statistic then for the overweight (BMI = 25 - 29 kg/m2) was 24% of men and 20% of women.

    Adults were over weight 4 times more than they were in 1960 statistics; and mostly in the rural population. The 1994 school children (age 6 to 14) had 5 - 11 % obesity.

    Data is from my notes (source was a Japanese translation) and I haven't looked up current statistics. Those 1994 obese school kids are all adults now
    of course.

    A recent analysis suggests that the lowest rate of death in East Asians (Japan, China, Korea) is for those with BMI of 22.6 to 27.5. This is similar to the European Prospective Studies Collaboration data of BMI = 23 - 27 as having least death risk in Caucasians.  

    In obese East Asians with BMI >35the risk of death was 1.5 times greater. However, those with a BMI of 15, or less, saw their risk factor go up by 2.8 times. In those with super low BMI the theory is underlying co-morbidity is involved, like respiratory disease.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/28/2011 6:26:37 AM |

    Coconut (like Doc's header image) has a  long 12:0 chain of lauric acid in it's fat that contributes to food satiety. It upregulates Glucagon-like Peptide 1 (GLP 1) release in the intestines.

    GLP1 is secreted in the endocrino-cyte "L" cells and is one of the hormone group called incretins; some GLP is also active in the brain. GLP 1 inhibits gastric secretion, gastric emptying and digestive secretion from the pancreas.

    It does enhance the release of insulin, which in this scenario
    (GLP 1 activated) occurs in the context of slowed digestion; so blood sugar drops in real time. GLP 1 also stymies the release of glycogen (stored liver glucose) and the body is driven to burn something else.

    GLP 1 does not provoke hypo-glycemia; the body burns it's fatty acids to run on. In fact if the individual does NOT graze between meals the satiation potential of coconut oil can work for up to 1.5 days worth of meals.

    It seems coconut's lauric acid fat works on GLP 1 with a timed phase that also kicks in +/- 3 hours after a meal. This has the affect of getting some insulin out to sweep away the blood glucose and force the body to burn fatty acids.

    Coconut's effect was greater than that of other fats; like milk fat, linoleic acid,stearic acid and oleic acid. Palm oil is more similarly satiating to coconut oil than other those other fats.

    I detail this as a suggestion how dieters can keep the weight they lost off. Read Doc's old posts and you will see his objection to "grazing" food between meals; it supplants the GLP 1 surge benefits.

    Here is a closing observation to amplify what others have infered. When western packaged foods switched out of palm and coconut oil shoppers lost the strongest activators of GLP1. Obesity from over eating got worse as we snacked up calories that sneak up on the waistline.

  • justdoinglife

    3/28/2011 7:43:52 AM |

    It is normal for people to overeat when food is readily available. That is a biological characteristic that has aided survival. We live in a time of excess. We need to learn to live normal in a abnormal world.

    I try to do that by avoiding sugar, grain, manufactured oils and other eatable products.

    but what do I know

  • Stargazey

    3/28/2011 2:07:25 PM |

    Might-o'chondri-AL, thanks for that mini-treatise on coconut oil. Lately I have been eating two tablespoons of coconut oil for breakfast as part of my weight maintenance program. I have noticed that the coconut oil is able to produce satiety as well as lower my blood sugar, but I had no idea why it worked.

  • Anonymous

    3/28/2011 2:39:14 PM |

    Some folks are very sensitive.  Control is probably a better word than cure, but the message is the same.  Low carb helps many folks with their blood sugar which is what seems to be so damaging.  It almost seems as though some cannot see beyond their own world views ("it isn't anyone's fault other than some medical-industrial complex", paraphrasing) when presented with evidence that INDIVIDUALS can help themselves, though some choose not to.

  • Lyford

    3/28/2011 3:40:49 PM |

    "Cure" implies that you no longer have diabetes, that you can eat whatever whenever and maintain normal blood sugars.  For almost everyone diagnosed as diabetic, that's not ever going to happen.  

    Diabetes -> High blood sugar -> complications

    You cannot change condition one - if you're diabetic, you're diabetic.  You can't really do much with link two - high blood sugar is going to cause complications in everyone who isn't killed by something else first.  But many type 2 diabetics can break link 1 and maintain normal blood sugars by limiting (or effectively eliminating) the amount of carbohydrate in their diets.

    But "cure" is definitely the wrong word to use.

  • Helen

    3/28/2011 9:39:20 PM |

    This is an interesting discussion.  Like "Anonymous" who is a young diabetic with a BMI of 24, I didn't eat my way into diabetes, and if I could eat my way out of it, I would have by now.  

    To M-Al and proponents of both low-carb and low-fat approaches, my experience tells me that type II diabetes is definitely NOT one disease, and (I'm getting to be a broken record on this forum I'm afraid) therefore the best regimen for control won't be the same for each person.  I do believe that many diabetics benefit from low-carb, and some from low-fat.  I suspect you will find refugees from one diet in the forums of the other - e.g., people for whom one alternative didn't work.

    One thing you probably can't do as a diabetic is eat both fats and carbs. And diabetes is so complex - a research article I read said that many diabetics seem to have disturbed lipid *and* carbohydrate metabolisms.  So where do you go from there?  Plus, you just dump sugar from your liver for no good reason, regardless.  This is why many diabetics (most?) will need to add medications to their diet and exercise routines.

    To commenters saying things like, "I know why there's diabetes - everyone's eating too much":

    Look at all of us: we're on a health blog.  We all have in common an unusual interest in health matters.  The fact that some people not reading this blog do not want to change their habits doesn't make it okay to blame diabetics for their disease.   Easy for you to say if it hasn't happened to you.

  • Gabriella Kadar

    3/28/2011 11:07:45 PM |

    What people do not take into consideration is that blood glucose is not dependant solely on dietary intake.  The liver dumps glucose into the blood stream in response to catecholamines.  Beta cells do not respond to endogenously produced glucose.  Glucose not utilized by the brain and the skeletal muscles will circulate for long periods of time.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/29/2011 12:34:52 AM |

    Hi Helen,
    Me, for my part, am just trying to examine the science of what Doc says works. It intrigues me, as do your comments.

    Whatever the causes of insulin resistance it starts unnoticed. The pancreas cells that should respond to circulating glucose go awry.

    Beta cells don't polarize their
    mitochondria membranes in the "normal" response to blood sugar (for many reasons, as you say).The Potassium ( K+) Channel is ruled by ATP and is unable to perform it's K+ channel function; it closes up for those people. (Mitochondria in other tissue can still be functioning normally.)

    So that Beta cell's mitochondrial
    Calcium ( Ca++) Channel gets a disorganized electrical charge. The Ca++ can't reach the triggering level the islet
    cell needs to put out insulin.

    A rhythmic swinging of Ca++ between the cell's mitochondria and that cell's cytoplasm (interior) is what sustains "normal" insulin activity. Why this happens, when and to whom is as you say  variable.

    First comes that pancreatic
    islet Beta cell mal-function, which instigates body's
    insulin resistance and then that
    individual shows symptom of hyper-glycemia (high blood sugar). If that kind of Beta cells' mitochondria mis-step (detailed above)is happening when someone's body tries
    to respond to blood glucose Doc's carbohydrate restriction is logical (to me).

    Insulin resistance apparently starts for adults long before blood glucose tests indicate
    even "pre-diabetes"; by age 60 +/-  1 in 5 will become Type II diabetic in the U.S.A. It seems with age our Beta cell mitochondria get out of whack and what we got away with in youth is not going to last forever.

    Genetic, epi-genetic and age are part of the disease progression; diabetes is a process, not a static condition over time. Abnormal Beta cell workings can lead to improper protein structure of the insulin molecule itself.

    This afflicts the Endoplasmic Reticulum (ER)where proteins are supposed to be appropriately folded. The erroneous protein configurations trigger the cell to "opt" for pre-programmed death (apoptosis, kind of like cell "suicide").

    That apoptosis is what eventually
    causes the diminished number of Beta cells in Type II diabetes.
    Early on Type II diabetics are not neccessarily suffering from dying Beta cells, or even always shrunken (atrophied) ones.

    Once the Type II diabetic's Beta cells die, then they suffer irreversable insulin insufficiency. That person has no response to hyper-glycemia and again Doc's regimen makes sense (and,I think he alluded to
    adding prescription diabetes drugs in certain individual cases).

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/29/2011 1:29:59 AM |

    Anon about typo: Thanks for catching that. Now fixed.

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/29/2011 1:33:27 AM |

    Hi, Jenny--

    Thanks, as always, for your insights.

    However, I am witnessing something different. I see 30, 40, 70, 80, 100 lbs of weight loss, followed by profound reversals of diabetes and all its associated measures.

    I suspect that many of the people you are talking to are not really following the diet that has the potential, in most diabetics but not in all as you well know, to completely reverse diabetes. It is a matter of the intensity of diet, the long-term commitment, and knowing what feedback tools to monitor.

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/29/2011 1:33:49 AM |

    Just doing--

    Well said!

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/29/2011 1:36:24 AM |

    Gretchen--

    Same response as that to Jenny.

    I was diabetic 20 years ago. No longer. I have a long list of former diabetics. It ain't that tough.

    There are indeed people who are physiologically incapable of reversing or ending diabetes. Jenny's LADA, for instance, can only be minimized, not completely reversed.

    But, as much as I respect the opinions of both of you very sophisticated ladies, I disagree with you on this issue. In fact, I would crudely estimate that 70-80% of all current diabetics, with the proper insight and information, can completely rid themselves of diabetes. This is no false hope.

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/29/2011 1:42:12 AM |

    Revelo--

    You are venturing very close to my Zero Tolerance Policy for rude behavior. Nonetheless, you often have insightful comments, so I'll let this one pass.

    Having done this in many patients, I can tell you it works in many, perhaps most, thought not all. There are too many paths to this place called diabetes, variable residual beta cell function, variable leptin status, variable adiponectin status, varying apo E status, etc. to allow 100% generalizations.

    The important lesson here is that MANY people, me included, who can kiss diabetes goodbye.

    Incidentally, I made myself diabetic 20 years ago eating low-fat, high- carb while jogging 5 miles a day.

  • Rick

    3/29/2011 1:54:54 AM |

    Another typo? About the paper you link to, is about a "small experience" or a "small experiment"?

  • Stargazey

    3/29/2011 2:40:14 AM |

    Just to be argumentative Smile

    Dr. Davis, if you are no longer diabetic, how could you start with a blood sugar of 84 mg/dl, eat 4 ounces of whole wheat bread, and then have a blood sugar of 167 mg/dl one hour later?

    In search of wheat: Einkorn and blood sugar

    I'm not a physician, but a postprandial blood sugar of 167 might indicate that your diabetes has not been cured.

  • PJNOIR

    3/29/2011 7:27:14 AM |

    after losing 70 lbs, even at 6:2 225 lbs, I was still in the Obese category.  I am not a bigbfan of one size fits all number ranges.  

    btw:  funny how it is the last ten lbs as if the number is the same. most low crabbers lie about their REAL carb intake.. We forget how quickly they add up.  


    Calories do NOT count.

    better the last ten is harder than the first fifty.

  • PJNOIR

    3/29/2011 7:35:36 AM |

    GRAND control but no cure.

  • Gretchen

    3/29/2011 1:29:19 PM |

    'I see 30, 40, 70, 80, 100 lbs of weight loss, followed by profound reversals of diabetes and all its associated measures."

    Dr Davis, with all due respect, if I lost 100 pounds, I'd weigh 20 pounds, which doesn't sound very appealing to me.

    As I noted, *people who are diagnosed in early stages of diabetes when they're still producing a lot of insulin* can go into remission with any kind of weight loss diet. These are the patients you're seeing.

    But they're not CURED. If they regain the weight, they'll have the same problems again.

    And people who aren't grossly overweight when diagnosed can't even go into remission by reducing carbs and giving up wheat. There are many many reports of this on the discussion boards and the anger the patients feel because medical people promised them something that didn't happen. They lose faith in doctors and try all kinds of alternative treatments, some of which could be dangerous.

    I think it's fine to tell patients that they MAY find that the weight loss puts them into remission. But to tell them that any diet will cure their diabetes is cruel, IMHO.

    If you had diabetes 20 years ago, then you still have it. Nondiabetics can be grossly overweight and maintain normal blood sugar levels. Some very obese people aren't even very insulin resistant.

    Human physiology is complex, and simplistic slogans (it used to be "fat makes you fat") are misleading.

    (BTW, Jenny is MODY, not LADA).

  • Gretchen

    3/29/2011 3:06:24 PM |

    I thought of an analogy: Someone is alcoholic. He gets counseling and gives up alcohol. Is he no longer alcoholic?

    I don't think so. Nonalcoholics can have one or two drinks and stop. He can't. He's controlled, but not cured.

    A lot of this controversy involves definitions. If you define "diabetes" as an A1c in the 4s, which is found in truly healthy young people, then if you get your A1c down that low with diet, you're not diabetic.

    But if you define diabetes as an inability to eat a lot of carbohydrate without going over 120 mg/dL, then you could have a low A1c on a low-carb diet and still be diabetic.

    Here are some quotes from lists from people who tested nondiabetic relatives:

    "My non-diabetic husband has never tested above 4.7 (85) and I've tested him a few times 1 and 2 hrs after amazing carb loads - 200g plus in 1 meal. Once after a Christmas dinner with 2 desserts (one dessert was sugar pie) and once after a pasta+white bread+dessert meal. After gigantic amounts of pancakes and gobs of maple syrup. He stays pretty much rock-steady."

    "I took my glucometer down for Thanksgiving and tested everyone an hour and two hours after the big meal with potatoes and pies etc. My brother in law's BG was only 82!"  and "I did the same thing with my siblings...including a sister who is close to 400 pounds. She was 84, my other sis who is about 220 lb was 75 and my brother who is thin was 100."

    It's not just weight.

    I don't like to argue about this, because I think you're doing a lot of good by urging people to cut carbs. But I think we need to face facts. Weight is an important factor, but not the primary cause of diabetes.

  • Anonymous

    3/29/2011 3:45:45 PM |

    I think that Grtchen's comment sums it up well. Dr Davis is a cardiologist. He also has a strong interest in nutrition and its impact on cardiovascular health. He is not an endocrinologist. And this shows in many of his comments regarding diabetes.

  • semsons.group

    3/29/2011 5:11:37 PM |

    Stargazey,

      I'm not diabetic, neither my wife, both of use can get 170 mg/dl after a vegetable sandwich with white bread. So, from my perspective your comment does not make much sense.

  • Alex

    3/29/2011 6:23:02 PM |

    Seems to me that low carb with elimination of grains and fructose would be a necessity for anybody with impaired glucose tolerance or diabetes.  Depending on how bad your insulin sensitivity is, you may have to switch from saturated fat to mono-unsaturated as well.  Add an hour a day of physical activity and I expect a significant percentage of diabetics/prediabetics will be off their meds.  The others will hopefully at least stabilize and not get worse.  Are they "cured"?  Not exactly...they still can't eat all that sugary stuff we all like to eat.
    But here's how I look at it.  Maybe they were never "sick" to begin with.  Maybe they were just poisoning themselves with foods they were never adapted to eat. After prolonged and sustained exposure to these poisons they got sick. Remove the poison and they no longer have the "disease" of diabetes.  I wonder what percentage of diabetics this definition of "disease" might apply to?

  • rhc

    3/29/2011 6:53:47 PM |

    @GeoffreyLevens
    I would be interested in how much exercise you do along with your diet to keep your bloodsuger (and A1C) that low.

  • PJNOIR

    3/29/2011 8:28:06 PM |

    exercise has little positive effect on blood sugar in the short term, in fact, in early efforts to control my numbers without meds, exercise would increase BS numbers after excerise. But in the long term, as a means to repair the body, it is very positive with diet.

  • Anonymous

    3/29/2011 9:17:43 PM |

    I find that exercise is a significant way to control blood sugar level. For me, a 30-min brisk walk (breathing hard at end) will reduce a 150+ blood sugar to under 125 mg/dL.
    I have found that the time of day for exercise is important. Physiologically we release glucose from liver glycogen prior to and on wake-up, preping our metabolism for activity so to speak. With increasing insulin resistance blood sugar will rise from the released glucose. Blood sugar is controlled by the insulin release in nondiabetics. Diabetics and the insulin resistant, can verify this with a series of fasting morning sugar checks, say on rising every 20 mins for an hour. By the way, this is known as the "dawn effect". For diabetics, the effect seems to be compounded with rigorous morning exercise. Exercise later in the day does not seem cause a problem. I had to go low carb (reducing stored hepatic glycogen) to reduce this natural response.
    This is my experience, and I am a DMT2. Be curious to hear about impact of exercise from you non-diabetic types.

    semsons.group: You may not consider yourself a "diabetic" but hitting a one-hour postprandial blood sugar of 170 after eating a sandwich is not healthy. Increased postprandial blood sugar levels is a sign of possible insulin resistance and a prediabetic condition.
    Continuous glucose monitoring studies show that for healthy individuals blood sugar rarely rises over 130 mg/dL and then only briefly during a 24-hour period. It is generally beleieved that blood sugar levels over 140 mg/dL are harmful.

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/29/2011 10:19:17 PM |

    I use the term "cure" loosely. "Latent" would be a better term.

    Personally, I run HbA1cs of around 4.7%, fasting glucose below 90 mg/dl, and postprandial glucoses of less than 100 mg/dl. In other words, no diabetes.

    However, if I have whole grain bread, cookies, and pretzels, I will be fully diabetic in short order, especially if I gain weight.

    I've seen this played out many, many times.

  • Stargazey

    3/29/2011 11:26:16 PM |

    Thanks, Dr. Davis. I suspected that might be the case.

    On a related topic, semsons.group and his wife may wish to avoid vegetable sandwiches with white bread.

  • Gretchen

    3/30/2011 1:01:46 AM |

    Dr Davis, thanks for clarifying your terminology. The reason I'm so adamant about avoiding the word "cure" is the following.

    I knew a man who was Dx'd with type 2. He did all the right things and got his BGs into normal ranges. So he thought he was cured and stopped testing. Nondiabetics don't test, and he was cured and nondiabetic, right?

    Then he had a piece of cake for his birthday. It was pretty good. Soon he was having cake every Sunday. Then every day. Then he forgot about the diet altogether. He was cured, right?

    One day he noticed he was thirsty all the time and decided to test. His BG was in the 400s or 500s. He wasn't worried. He knew what to do and went back to the diet that "cured" him before.

    Only this time it didn't work. He'd burned out his beta cells with high glucose. And he had to start injecting insulin.

    If instead of being told he was cured, he'd been told he was in remission but still had to be careful, he might have tested and discovered the problems before they were irreversible.

    This also illustrates the benefit of early diagnosis. If you wait too long, the condition may become irreversible no matter how strict your diet.

  • Lori Miller

    3/30/2011 1:59:12 AM |

    A difference between Dr. Davis's patients and typical low-carb dieters is that the patients may be taking more supplements of the right kind. There's a whole school of thought that overweight is caused by lack of nutrients, especially minerals. I believe that whacking out the empty, carby calories is important, but I also believe you need vitamins and minerals to metabolize fat--including your own fat. It's often forgotten that Dr. Atkins recommended supplements, and even wrote a book on the subject.

    In some studies I've seen, low-carb dieters were allowed, over time, to go back to eating more and more carb. (I'm sure this happens sometimes in real life, too.) Naturally, they stopped losing weight.

  • Anonymous

    3/30/2011 2:39:32 AM |

    Has anyone used supplements like lipoic acid ? (The R version is supposedly superior). It is used in Germany as a treatment in diabetes.

  • Anonymous

    3/30/2011 4:19:26 AM |

    Revelo: No, my comments are not stupid. I have yet to see a Type 2 diabetic within their normal weight range, AND eating healthy. I am surrounded by fat relatives/co-workers who live on highly processed boxed packaged foods, morning, day, and night at home and work place.  

    Myself and only 2 others bring our lunch to work from home, the rest on a daily basis eat out at Taco bell, Burger King, Pizza Hut, MsDonalds, etc. Now imagine doing this again for dinner??

    How much more can your body take of this diet before you become a DIABETIC?? I see it day in and day out before my eyes people eating themselves into Type II Diabetes.

  • Megaera

    3/30/2011 4:37:09 AM |

    Interesting: when Jenny points out that a theory applied doesn't actually work, the response isn't, "hm, perhaps the theory isn't right..." it's, "Well, then you have to be doing it wrong."  So, if I go on a rigorously-applied low-carb diet (no grains of any kind, no vegetable starches, limited fruits, no juices, fats being animal and EVOO only, and I STILL don't lose even a single pound despite cycling 20+ miles per day, Dr. Davis will unblushingly inform me that it's my fault, it's not that there's something wrong with the theory.  This is the case, by the way -- been doing this as a test since January. FWIW, my blood sugar, which before January, was typically 80 or so in the morning is now 120+, as often as not.  I'm not impressed with the results of this "health" approach, which hasn't changed even one of my health issues for the better, and appears to have worsened several rather significantly.

  • PJNOIR

    3/30/2011 12:15:09 PM |

    Meg:  Not a single pound?   Then something is very unusual.  Many of us know Jenny and her work and are familiar with her POVs. But not a single pound and claims of worse health leaves many of us speechless, What in the world would one expect to hear on an internet forum?  


    Annom-  I have used R  acid large doses twice a day. I cannot say that it worked by itself. I stopped when money got tight and didn't start again. It was a part of many things I was doing at a time when I was having my best results away from using any meds. I am thinking of going back to it and a few other things.

    As for exercise, only heavy lifting, strength training had any effect on my BS numbers on the short term. Walks and aerobics increased the numbers.  Type II is different for all of us. My best numbers are when I wake up and at night. go figure.

  • Helen

    3/30/2011 1:15:56 PM |

    To Anonymous, who said:

    "Revelo: No, my comments are not stupid. I have yet to see a Type 2 diabetic within their normal weight range, AND eating healthy. I am surrounded by fat relatives/co-workers who live on highly processed boxed packaged foods, morning, day, and night at home and work place."

    Well, then you have yet to meet me.  And my father-in-law.  Your tone is very judgmental and your comments uninformed.  About 1/4 of type II diabetics are not overweight.  I have always eaten healthfully - people are always commenting on it, and now they say, "Diabetes - you?"

    On the other hand, most obese people do not have diabetes, even though they may have other health problems.  Diabetes can be triggered by a poor diet and overweight, which lead to insulin resistance, but you have to have other, usually genetic, risk factors to develop diabetes.

  • Gretchen

    3/30/2011 1:16:01 PM |

    Anonymous, I once gave a talk to a local diabetes group. What really impressed me was that there were very few obese people in the audience. One man with a "beer belly," but most were post middle age women, not skinny, but not fat. Some were thin.

    I find it sad when people blame the victims. I think it's a form of self-protection. "Well, I don't do those things, so I'll never get disease X."

    I know a lot of people with diabetes who eat healthy diets, but I live in a rural area where most of us have vegetable gardens and some raise animals for meat as I used to.

    When you work in an urban area where everyone else in the office goes to fast food places for meals (I once noticed there was nothing but fast food available in the Harvard Medical School area and I wondered if they were trying to drum up business), it's difficult to be different, especially if you're the only one. Lots of peer pressure. People hate "holier than thou" eaters.

    I recently heard a talk on obesity by Jeffrey Friedman, who discovered leptin. He said many people think obesity is caused by gluttony and sloth, adding that "this view is mostly espoused by thin people." He thinks genetics has a very large role.

    Anonymous, have some compassion and have the courage to use your real name.

  • Helen

    3/30/2011 1:17:05 PM |

    Megeara, I have had a similar experience, although I did lose weight on low-carb.  It may be that this diet simply isn't compatible with your particular genetic profile and how you handle lipids and carbs.  Try some other approaches, keep checking your blood sugar, and see what works best for you.

    By the way, I find that supplemental fish oil and also vitamin C drive my blood sugar up.  (Both of these personal experience were backed up by research, I discovered.)  Check out if any supplements you are taking might be driving your numbers up.

  • Stargazey

    3/30/2011 1:41:24 PM |

    Megaera--just a thought--are you doing anything close to zero-carb? For some reason, in people over 50 a zero-carb diet can cause elevated blood sugar.

    I tried a zero-carb diet a couple of years ago, thinking it would help me lose weight and stave off diabetes. Instead, I gained weight and my fasting blood sugars went above 100 mg/dl for the first time in my life. I surveyed a bunch of people at my blog and found that those over 50 had similar experiences. (Google: Stargazey Observations on Protein Intake, if you want to read about it.)

  • CarbSane

    3/30/2011 3:28:04 PM |

    I tend to agree with what Stargazey is getting at here and Dr. Davis has since rephrased:  VLC is not a cure for diabetes.  VLC is clearly one way of managing one of the major symptoms implicated in health risks associated with diabetes (e.g. hyperglycemia -> glycation).  

    However, eating VLC does not cure diabetes, which at its core is pancreatic beta cell dysfunction.  Indeed it seems it can exacerbate the dysfunction as illustrated by the anecdotal evidence (don't like it but we have no real studies on this that I am aware of) that long term low carbers become more and more sensitive to any carb in the diet = worsening glycemic control.  

    A normal person can handle quite the glucose excursion and mounts an appropriate insulin response to handle it.  A diabetic cannot handle this, and neither can VLC'ers or the advice to carb up with 150g/day for several days in advance of an OGTT would not be circulating around the web.

    Can diabetes be cured?  Well, apparently yes.  I'm not suggesting gastric bypass surgery, but the remission rate - as in cessation of meds and "passing" an OGTT - is remarkable in morbidly obese diabetics undergoing the procedure.  In the 80-85% range in a matter of days/weeks prior to significant weight loss.  

    This tells me that our beta cells are remarkably more resilient than we give them credit for - we're talking some of the most deranged metabolisms snapping back to "normal" relatively quickly.

    In the short run, especially in IR obese and with weight loss, low carb generally seems to be a more successful approach.  But long term, more moderate approaches with higher carb and lower fat intake seem to be better, especially once compliance is taken to account.  

    (In Westman, after randomized assignments of 97 participants, 10 of those who drew the LCKD diet didn't show up to do the study, while only 3 of the LGID did.  So they started with 38 and 46 respectively.  Of these 5 KD's dropped out for refusal/dissatisfa41%ction with the diet while only 2 dropped out of GI diet.  17 total dropped from each group.  So from assignment to completion,  27/48 = 56% of screened recruits effectively dropped the LCKD while only 20/49 = 41% dropped out of LGID.  This can definitely impact results.  And the post-6 month rebound is common in longer term studies.)

    The results in the 2 year Shai study for example:  http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/09/shai-and-diabetes.html

    Nuttal's group has achieved some excellent results absent weight loss with their LoBAG diets - high protein (30%) with 20,30 or 40% carb splitting the 70% baby with fat.  http://carbsanity.blogspot.com/2010/09/lobag-diets-for-treatment-of-type-ii.html

    I think Dr. Davis is an example of what Dr. Dansinger (who treats diabetics with a relatively low carb but less extreme version than others) refers to as a "carb cripple".

  • Anonymous

    3/30/2011 3:46:40 PM |

    I use the antioxidant R-lipoic acid as a supplement.
    Daily:  3x 200mg R-Lipoic Acid
    1x 1000 mg Evening Primrose Oil
    1x 1000 mcg Biotin
    As suggested by Richard Bernstein in his book, “Dr. Bernstein's Diabetes Solution: The Complete Guide to Achieving Normal Blood Sugars.” The Evening Primrose Oil provides gamma-linolenic acid (GLA) that is believed to increase the effectiveness of the lipoic acid effect. The biotin replaces the body’s supply consumed in the lipoic reaction.
    The R-isomer is believed to be better utilized than the S-isomer.
    In Germany, R-lipoic acid is used to relieve diabetic peripheral neuropathy, however, the supplement is given intravenously.

    I can not say that it has improved my blood sugar control but I continue to use it more as a “universal antioxidant”, and because of Bernstein’s endorsement. R Bernstein, a type 1 diabetic, is an endocrinologist and one of the original proponents for the use of at-home meters for measuring blood sugar levels in diabetics. He is one of the very early supporters of low carbs for blood sugar control in diabetics. He is in his 70s.

    I am a type 2 diabetic on metformin and low-carbs, maintaining HbA1cs at the low-end of 5%.

    For supplements this is the most expensive one I take. I go back and forth between the Doctors Best and Life Extension products, whatever is cheaper on Amazon at the time.

    Perhaps Jenny/Blood Sugar 101 can add a few more comments …

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/30/2011 6:48:26 PM |

    Very interesting to me here, thanks everyone. Beta cells, in human adults, have their individual life span; they are not replaced from stem cells.

    A few at a time, of the already differentiated, Beta cells duplicate themselves. New ones form and in the absence of hyper-glycemia (high blood sugar) can become larger than their progenitors.

    This might explain how Doc gets latency, CarbSane suggest a "snapping" back, and why standard carbohydrate intake does not always induce diabetes. Each Beta cell has more than one mitochondria in order to sustain it's insulin role.

    Another commentator mentions that as some Type II diabetics age they (diabetics) do better off the low carbohydrate diet. Maybe the very slow time which Beta cells self-duplicate in has reached a good formation (in those individuals) and best to  "use it, or lose it".

    A low carb period gives fresh Beta cells enough of a break from high blood sugar then they can become large. Then that co-hort of Beta cells can follow the "normal" response; which is to get larger in response to  insulin demand from blood sugar (ex: when middle age Type II diabetic does "better" off of a strict low carb diet).

    What stops Beta cell self-duplication in Type I diabetes is the auto-immune T cell "attack". The immune system stymies regeneration.

    In Type II diabetes the inability to prevent toxic exposure side effects can be what impedes Beta cell self-duplication. Distorted  down-stream signal pathways can affect the transcription of a "fledgeling" Beta cell's replication of it's actin cyto-skeleton .

  • Stargazey

    3/30/2011 8:51:34 PM |

    Might-o'chondri-AL, if you don't mind my asking, where do you get all your information? Are you a graduate student, perhaps?

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/30/2011 10:29:42 PM |

    Hi Stargzy,
    I'm "semi-retired" 60 year old who hopes to avoid degeneration as I age. I've been investigating how to live well for over 40 years. Doc's blog appeals to me because he has clinical cases to draw on and good input from his readers.

    When I first began looking into things maintaining health the science was much different. I am just trying to organize my thoughts on contemporary research to preserve my mental capacity.

  • CarbSane

    3/31/2011 12:43:28 PM |

    In the Westman study, it bears noting that the gender and racial make-up of the "completers" - which is all that counts for comparisons - varies considerably between the diet study groups:
    LKCD:  67% female, 67% white, 24% African-American
    LGID:  79% female, 45% white, 52% African-American

    On the "carbohydrates cause diabetes" front, I remain unconvinced.  When one looks at populations who are most susceptible to developing the disease, what does they tell us?  The traditional Pima ate an 80% carb diet and had low diabesity.  Expose to SAD - rates soar.  Japanese in Japan eating traditional diet with lots of rice = low diabesity rates.  Expose to SAD = rates soar.  The SAD is lower in carb by % (generally comes in at 40-45% carb for "usual" diet in studies) than the traditional diets.  So how can we say that carbs cause diabetes?

  • Helen

    3/31/2011 3:53:49 PM |

    I tried to post this before, but it got lost.  

    A question for Dr. Davis:  When you got diabetic blood sugars on a "healthy, whole grain" diet, were you supplementing with niacin and fish oil, which you recommend on your site?  I'm curious, because both are associated with impaired glucose tolerance in type II diabetics, and I have seen the effects of fish oil on my own glucose control.  There's a theory I've read that, while niacin has cardiovascular benefits, which is why you recommend it, food fortification with niacin may be in part responsible for increased rates of diabetes.  

    Is it possible that niacin is beneficial with low-carb, but deleterious with high-carb?

  • revelo

    3/31/2011 5:29:51 PM |

    Sorry for that comment above.

    Afghans (people of Afghanistan) eat a wheat based diet. In fact, wheat bread is almost the entire diet of many of them (and they suffer from iodine deficiency and other problems as a result). But they have little obesity, little diabetes, no problems with insulin-resistance:

    http://maisonneuve.org/pressroom/article/2010/nov/15/the-diseases-affluence/

    Things are more complicated than simply "carbs = bad".

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    3/31/2011 11:03:59 PM |

    Hi Helen,
    Niacin induces vaso-dilation ("flush") from the action of prostaglandins on capillaries Prostaglandins are made from the lipids stashed in our membranes.

    This is how fish oil DHA/EPA (n-3) and poly-unsaturated vegetable oil (n-6) are involved; these can form Arachidonic Acid (AA)for making prostaglandins. Aspirin (salicylic acid) works as an anti-inflammatory because it blocks the AA pathway engendering prostaglandins.

    1876 salicylate was known to decrease diabetic's glucose in their urine. A modern study showed injected salicylate restored acute (ie: 1st) insulin response to glucose in
    10 out of 12 Type II diabetics who were administered prostaglandin.

    For the 2nd insulin phase, with a few gr. glucose challenge, 12 out of 12 Type II diabetics had a 4x increase in their 2nd insulin response (ie: with a
    salicylate booster before glucose administered and having those prostaglandins they got to start the test.)Prostaglandins,
    in Type II diabetics, interfere with insulin response; in the controls the prostaglandins did not blunt the 1st nor the 2nd insulin "pulse" put out.

    Women (some) "flush" from effect of prostaglandins at lower concentrations (ie: less niacin)than men (some). This is believed to be related to estrogen levels; suggesting that
    post-menopausal women should review their original pre-menopausal niacin dose.

    Doc specificly stated no one should take more than 1,500 mg. niacin without medical supervision (ex: liver enzymes
    that monitor inflammation
    tests). Diabetics who see their blood sugar worsen and/or liver
    tests worsen while taking niacin, might be able to find their individual dose that does not induce levels of prostaglandins interfering with insulin phases 1 and/or 2.
    Aspirin, as a salicylate, could be an additional way to block AA (thus prostaglandins)and foster timely insulin secretion for glucose clearance.

  • LifeCoachAndy

    4/2/2011 9:04:52 AM |

    Another latest study showed that carbs and fats do not mix well and results into high blood sugar. YOu need to read the full studyy, to see the whole picture. healthy subjects were given hig fat meal (only fat) in the morning and their glucose and insulin remained at the fasting level for the next 5 hours. Then they were given coffee or nothing and then did glucose challenge. Sugar shut sky high (10 mmol/l ~180sh). Coffein further increases glucose.

    This study again demonstrates that fat even after many outs of eating got negative effect on glucose. If if you eat low carb diet thats ok, but like most peole eat 30-40% energy from fat that leads to disaster.
    'An Oral Lipid Challenge and Acute Intake of Caffeinated Coffee Additively Decrease Glucose Tolerance in Healthy Men ' http://jn.nutrition.org/content/early/2011/02/23/jn.110.132761.abstract

    THis give some explanation why low fat diet work on some ppl.
    Also emaging what wouldve happen if this study was done with diabetics.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    4/2/2011 4:28:38 PM |

    Hi L/C/Andy,
    Is it more likely that caffeine's classic effect on the adrenals, causing the liver to naturally put glycogen (sugar storage molecule)into circulation, is the reason blood glucose "surged" after coffee? I admit to not having read the study, so this is speculation.

Loading
The nattokinase scam

The nattokinase scam

A conversation about vitamin K2 commonly leads to confusion. Several people have asked about something called nattokinase.

The scientific data on the potential role of vitamin K2 deficiency in causing both osteoporosis and vascular calcification is fascinating. Along with vitamin D3, vitamin K2 may be an important factor in regulation of calcium metabolism. Supplementation may prove to be a major strategy for inhibition of vascular calcification.

Obtaining K2 in the diet is tricky, since it's present in just a handful of foods: egg yolks, liver, traditional cheeses, and natto. This is where the confusion starts.

Natto is a Japanese fermented soy product. I've had it and it's quite disgusting. Nonetheless, Japanese who eat natto experience less fracture. (A parallel study in heart disease has not been performed.) Natto is also a source of another substance called nattokinase.

Advocates (otherwise often known as supplement distributors) claim that nattokinase is a "fibrinolytic", or blood clot-dissolving, preparation that "improves blood flow, protects from blood clots, and prevents heart attacks and strokes."

Don't you believe it. This is patent nonsense. There are several problems with this rationale:

--Any oral fibrinolytic agent is promptly degraded in the highly acid environment of the stomach. That's why all medically used fibrinolytics are given intravenously. Drug companies have struggled for years to encapsulate, modify, or somehow protect protein (or polypeptide) products taken orally from degrading this way. They've never succeeded. That's why, for instance, growth hormone (a polypeptide) remains an injection, not an oral agent. An oral growth hormone, by the way, would sell like mad, so the drug companies would very much like to figure out how to bypass the degradative effects of stomach acid. One of the "researchers" behind the nattokinase claims boasts that he has single-handedly figured out how to protect the nattokinase molecule in the gastrointestinal tract. However, he won't tell anybody how he does it. Right.

--Fibrinolytic agents are extremely dangerous. In years past, we used to treat heart attacks with intravenous fibrinolytic agents like tissue plasminogen activator, urokinase, streptokinase, and others. They have fallen by the wayside, for the most part, because of limited effectiveness and the unavoidable dangers of their use. Fibrinolytics are "dumb": they dissolve blood clots in both good places and bad. While they might dissolve the blood clot causing your heart attack, they also degrade the tiny clot in your cerebral (brain) circulation that was protective. That's why fatal brain hemorrhages, bleeding stomach ulcers, and blood oozing from strange places can also occur with fibrinolytic administration. Believe me, I've seen it happen, and I've watched people die from them.

The idea that a small dose taken orally is healthy is ridiculous. Even if nattokinase worked, why the heck would you take an agent that has known dangerous and very real consequences?

Don't let this idiocy reflect poorly on the K2 conversation, which, I believe, holds real merit and is backed by legitimate science. This is symptomatic of a larger difficulty with the supplement industry: Insane and unfounded claims about one supplement erodes credibility for the entire industry. It gives regulation-crazed people like the FDA ammunition to go after supplements, something none of us need. You and I have to sift through the nonsense to uncover the real gems in this rockpile, real gems like vitamin D3, omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, and, perhaps, vitamin K2. But not nattokinase.

Comments (179) -

  • Anonymous

    6/2/2007 6:49:00 PM |

    Before you dismiss Nattokinase, please check out research done by Hiroyuki Sumi from 1987 (original discovery) and 1990, and subsequent research on how the compound has an effect on plasmin and other clot-dissolving agents.

  • Dr. Davis

    6/2/2007 10:12:00 PM |

    I have read his research. I stand by my opinion: Nattokinase is a scam. It is an utterly ridiculous notion that anyone should take oral thrombolytic agents to "prevent blood clots". Thrombolysis is a dangerous strategy, even if it worked in humans by the oral route. An agent that, if it worked, poses serious potential for severe side effects and death needs to be tested thoroughly first. It is plain idiocy to use this agent. It is not fish  oil, it is not a vitamin, it is something entirely different that has no basis for use as a preventive. You're throwing your money away.

  • Anonymous

    9/2/2007 5:33:00 AM |

    I actually don't find natto disgusting at all -- I think I am one of the few non-Japanese who like it.  I didn't realize it was so healthy for you.  Should I consciously add it to my diet?

  • Dr. Davis

    9/2/2007 1:29:00 PM |

    No kidding?

    Natto is an abundant source of vitamin K2, which may have a role in regulating calcium metabolism. Although not as crucial as vit D3, K2 is emerging as a potential addition to our program. See our full Special Report on vitamin K2 on the www.trackyourplaque.com website.

  • Anonymous

    12/18/2007 11:07:00 PM |

    "Fibrinolytics are "dumb": they dissolve blood clots in both good places and bad."

    That's true of anything taken orally, and is not much of a criticism. And there is little difference in risk between fish oils or aspirin, and typical nattokinase intakes. So the only point you're making that makes any sense to me is that nattokinase does not survive stomach acidity, but that is contradicted by studies where nattokinase taken orally did have an effect.

  • Anonymous

    12/19/2007 6:04:00 AM |

    "I believe you are failing to appreciate what fibrinolytics accomplish if they were truly being absorbed through the stomach: They are deadly. You have to be nuts to take an agent like this chronically if it worked."

    Problem is that it's even nuttier to be taking warfarin chronically, considering it's _known_ interaction with vitamin K - but that's exactly what is currently pushed. See www.vitamink2.org for discussion of the evils of warfarin - the surest route to osteoporosis and blood vessel calcification.

    Personally, I take K2-7, fish oil, etc., but am open to the idea that nattokinase may be able to offset the decline in plasmin production that occurs with age. Of course, it would be best if we had a (convenient) blood value to monitor to check dosage (something as simple as a blood glucose or INR meter). Certainly more research is needed.

    If not nattokinase, then how do you suggest that we address the increased risk of clotting with age? And how should the amounts of these alternatives be adapted to individual differences? (As exemplified by the issue of how much fish oil to consume.)

  • Dr. Davis

    12/19/2007 1:32:00 PM |

    I agree with you on the vitmamin K2 issue and certainly with omega-3. However, the whole lytic issue is truly nutty. Lytics are destructive. While warfarin (I'm no fan, either, and I put all interested warfarin-taking patients on K1 and K2 supplements if the warfarin can't be avoided, e.g., chronic pulmonary emboli, left ventricular thrombi, prosthetic heart valve--these people have no choice) prevents propagation of blood clot, it is NOT a blood clot dissolver. Lytic agents ARE. In other words, the little protective blood clot in the tiny defect in your middle cerebral artery that would have healed itself without consequence becomes a cerebral bleed. I know--I've seen it happen several times in the "old days" when lytics were popular. It even happens with the smaller doses used for localized clot dissolution introduced via specific delivery into the thrombus.

    Unfortunately, I don't have an answer on how to manage the acquired disorder of blood coagulation that accompanies aging. However, omega-3s are a big part of the solution.

  • Anonymous

    12/19/2007 2:49:00 PM |

    For the record, here's a summary of the argument for nattokinase, as promoted by Holsworth. If all of this turns out to be true, would you still be against use of nattokinase?

    Dr. Holsworth describes the actions of nattokinase as “Nurturing Nature”. The most therapeutic perspective property of NK is the indirect effect.
    1) inhibits PAI-1 (plasminogen activation inhibitor-1)
    2) upregulates individual’s own tissue plasminogen activator (tPA) anti-clotting mechanism
    3) converts endogenous pro-urokinase to urokinase
    4) has small anti-platelet activity – similar to garlic or onions
    Lyses cross-linked or dysfunctional fibrin. NK is 6 times more efficient than our own plasmin, but does not compete with cleavage of fibrinogen, so doesn’t attack anything that isn’t dysfunctional. Fibrin is the single-most causative agent that makes blood thick.
    -No direct tPA activity – no direct competition in clotting
    -No degradation of albumin by NK
    -Said to act like an Angiotensin Converting Enzyme inhibitor ACEi). Keeps angiotensin II down and in rat studies, thins the neo-intimal layer of inflamed blood vessels. He is not impressed with the clinical studies suggesting the ACEi effect; but clinically, it works as an anti-hypertensive medicine . He does find that people on antihypertensives decrease the amount of high blood pressure medication or eliminate them all together in 7 – 14 days.
    Dr Holsworth cautions that individuals on high blood pressure medicines, closely monitor their blood pressure and notify their primary care physician about any lowering of their blood pressure.
    Dr. Holsworth has seen significant decreases of 10-20 points of systolic and diastolic blood pressures within 7 days of starting nattokinase.
    -Linked to circadian rhythm. PAI-1 inhibits the ability to create plasmin. Clots occur early in the a.m. predominantly and, therefore, increase the stroke or heart attack incidence.
    Breaking down existing clots…
    NK has only slight or limited Pac Man capabilities to “eat away” directlyat existing clots, but rather “nurtures nature” by enhancing our own endogenous pro-fibrinolytic system. Small direct effect of less than 10% efficacy similar to plasmin where it works directly on a clot – Pac Man style. It will not break loose a clot.

    What is an ideal thyrombolyic agent?
    • Rapid – NK is effective within 4 hours PO (oral) administration and has significant fibrinolytic activity in blood vs. tPA which has that 3-hour grace period to initiate…so there is only one hour differential in ischemia situation. Additionally, tPA has short duration of effectiveness and must be taken intravenously..
    • Duration – maintain patency of vasculature – no early reclusions.
    • Sustained duration of action - half-life of NK is 8 – 12 hours. After tPA administration, patients are at an increased risk for the next 14 – 48 hours where patients are susceptible and have an increased thrombophilic state secondary to tPA IV (as in rebound effect).
    • Specific - no shotgun effect of cleaving any and all fibrin in the body… Specific or targeted…that’s what NK does with cross-linked fibrin.
    • Thrombosis–specific…doesn’t adversely affect coagulation factors or the coagulation cascade
    • Upregulates body’s own plasminogen system.
    • Low risk of hemorrhage - isolated cases of epistaxis (nose bleeds) – compounded by 4 – 5 other anti-platelet agents…garlic ginkgo, fish oil. Reduce intake.
    • Absence of systemic side effects.
    • Caution – if on antihypertensives, check blood pressure in 7 – 10 days. NK can quickly correct the body’s Hemorheology. Blood pressure medicines may have to be titrated down so individual is not over-medicated or discontinue use.
    • -Low cost
    • Per oral (P.O.) convenience (as opposed to IV).

  • Anonymous

    12/22/2007 3:24:00 PM |

    I should have mentioned that the above Holsworth summary is from Jackie on the www.afibbers.net forum.

    I guess I'm also interested in what Dr. Davis has to say about the use of nattokinase to treat fibroids, as exemplified by Fibrovan (www.fibrovan.com). Are all the testimonies faked? Or will all the patients soon die of some sort of internal bleeding?

  • Dr. Davis

    12/23/2007 12:31:00 AM |

    The data I've looked at re: nattokinase has been proprietary, generated clearly by a manufacturer. Until some real science emerges, even modest, to support this otherwise counterintuitive strategy, it remains something that has no value for our plaque reducing focus. The disease is not thrombus or clot; the disease is atherosclerosis. Clot develops when heart attack occurs. It makes no sense to take a lytic agent that dissolves clotes continuously. Unless I am missing something here, nattokinase remains squarely in the nonsense column.

  • Anonymous

    2/24/2008 2:38:00 PM |

    My wife has enometriosis with disabling pain and the treaments that the doctors have been giving seems to only make it wrose. I found aFibrovan on the internet stating that it would reduce the symptoms within in weeks with no side effects.

    Is this fibrovan similar to the scams in which you speak or does it have merit for endo an treatment?

  • Anonymous

    3/2/2008 2:33:00 PM |

    Thank you Dr. Davis for your comments re:  nattokinase.  As you know, the testimonials (at the product sites) are pretty amazing.  As my holistic MD is suggesting UFE or myomectomy, I'm thinking about trying one of the fibrovan, neprinol "fibroid dissolvers"!  I'm also taking codliver oil, turmeric and a pile of herbs to support liver function.  are all those testimonials lies?  maybe if we had an economic system based on love and caring instead of profit, we wouldn't be asking this question.  thank you again for your knowledge and care-it's clear that you do. lynn

  • Anonymous

    3/9/2008 12:18:00 AM |

    I don't have a heart problem.  I have had debilitating muculoskeletal pain for over 8 years.  Last week Friday, 3/7/08, I began taking a large dose of nattokinase.  Results were evident in fewer than 4 hours and continue today, 8 days later.  I am able to function without my usual pain medication and the adhesions and hypertone in my muscle tissue continue to decrease daily.  Do you have any ideas why?

    Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    3/19/2008 3:24:00 PM |

    I have spoken with my doctor who states that NK is being used currently in Germany to treat DVT's, clots, etc., and two of her heart patients also take it, one for over two years now (from Germany himself) and another woman for the past six months, both have improved health.  I also have many friends who have used NK to dissolve their DVT's who no issues what so ever, and with doctors involvement watching the progress.  Why is none of this ever talked about?  I haven't heard one report of a person dying from NK.  SH

  • Rett

    4/15/2008 3:31:00 PM |

    I an interested to know why you think, that if nattokinase were dangerous in that it may dissolve clots too quickly or inappropriately, how come users of natto do not report excessive bruising?

  • Anonymous

    4/17/2008 8:04:00 PM |

    As if conventional medicine is so great.  The United States spends more on health care than any other nation, yet as a recent study revealed we are dead last in outcomes.  I went to FIVE (5) physicians (PCP, ortho, GYN, etc.) over a 3.5-month period with left leg pain and swelling, and stated several times with these symptoms and the fact I'm on estrogen I think this is a DVT.  Response?  "Oh, no that's normal as we age.  Our veins become less efficient" (oh, please...what a crock)  The sixth physician, a pulmonologist, ordered an ultrasound that revealed an extensive proximal DVT.  If conventional medicine is so charming, please explain to me why it is so d*** incompetent.  A friend of mine went for a mammogram.  "We see something suspicious."  Pathology after biopsy-indeterminate x3, then "you've got lymphoma".  An oncologist was wanting to start chemo right away.  A PET scan and numerous labs were all NORMAL!!!  No cancer.  How pathetic.  How many people are receiving chemotherapy who never had cancer in the first place?  Perhaps Dr. Davis you need to open your mind!!  Most sincerely!

  • Anonymous

    4/18/2008 1:33:00 PM |

    I started taking Nattokinase for a DVT.  I was initially taking 2,000 FU per day then bumped it to 6,000.  Recent labs and ultrasound show IT IS WORKING!!  Fibrin degradation products are high and the ultrasound shows a resolving clot just weeks after diagnosis.  (Natto was started in the past 3 weeks; the higher dose within the last week.)  We've been using rat poison (Coumadin) since the early 1950s.  The hair thinning/loss, bloating, headache, etc. that accompanies Coumadin are known side effects though most doctors will tell patients they are not.  Are we to believe that in 60 years we can't come up with anything better to offer than Coumadin?  Studies have undeniably shown that after one year of "treatment" with Coumadin, more than 24 percent of people STILL HAVE residual clot.  Coumadin, of course, does not dissolve clots.  It only prevents new ones from forming and impacts the clotting cascade to enable the body to absorb the clot.  Nattokinase is a viable, effective alternative.  The real reason it is not studied in America is because it is a naturally-occurring substance that cannot be patented,i.e., no drug company can profit.  The Japanese people are the healthiest people on the face of the earth.  How thoughtful of Japan Air Lines to include natto in their snacks on their LONG-HAUL flights.  Obviously, they are proactive in their healthcare and attempts to prevent clots.  Just as American medical practitioners laugh at Nattokinase, I recall a time when we laughed at those cars called Toyotas.  No one is laughing now at the quality and high integrity of this company.  Now as then, perhaps we should stop criticizing and start emulating.

  • Anonymous

    4/18/2008 1:37:00 PM |

    Dr. Davis-you should be upfront about the fact that Coumadin is one of the top 10 reasons for emergency room visits in the United States.

  • Anonymous

    6/21/2008 2:39:00 AM |

    I like the saying "If all you have is a hammer, everyting you see is a nail".  I have seen many doctors on various occasions, lost a tooth because the dentist only had a hammer.  Now I have s second tooth that feels funny, and it will not be treated by a dentist.

    I started taking nattokinase a few days ago, 5000FU per pill once a day.  I do feel something different happening, but can't quite put my finger on it.  But it's not a feeling of being better.  As of now, I am feeling a bit numbness in both arms, and a location between the shoulder blades hurts a bit and changes in area now and then.

  • Dr. William Davis

    7/8/2008 3:47:00 AM |

    Looking back over these posts accumulating over the past several months, I note that some readers have interpreted my criticisms of the junk science behind nattokinase as an indirect endorsement of warfarin.

    That is plain wrong.

    I criticize nattokinase for making extravagant claims with virtually no real data in humans. If fibrinolysis truly developed with nattokinase, we would expect several deaths for every 100 people who take it, because that is the experience with any agent causing lysis of clots.

    If I advocate anything, it is truth. Be aware that, whether it's a drug manufacturer, a food manufacturer, or a supplement manufacturer, they are willing takers of your money.

    There are truly effective, powerful supplements out there. Nattokinase is not one of them.

  • Oswald

    7/12/2008 3:04:00 PM |

    This is an interesting debate on a couple of levels:

    (1) The assertion that "all" fibrolytic substances are broken down by the stomach environment. That should be all *known* substances. Just because you have always seen only white swans doesn't mean there aren't any black swans (see the philosopher Karl Popper to learn about being a real scientist).

    (2) Anecdotal evidence from myself. I try to be objective. I can't say anything about the anticoagulant effects of Nattokinase, but so far as I can tell it has some anti-inflammatory effect. I have monitored this in my own health.

    Of course we all need to proceed carefully when new substances are touted as having fabulous effects.
    Snake oil is ever present. We should also remember that most Doctors are not trained to be scientists, they seldom understand how science should proceed. So very often they retreat into dogma and blanket assertions. It wasn't so long ago that saying stomach ulcers were caused by bacteria would have caused a Doctor to be derided as a fool. Science and knowledge proceeds by conjecture and refutation, and while we do have to be careful of Snake oil, we also have to be aware that accepted dogma is often wrong.

  • Anonymous

    8/4/2008 6:07:00 AM |

    "If fibrinolysis truly developed with nattokinase, we would expect several deaths for every 100 people who take it, because that is the experience with any agent causing lysis of clots." - Dr. Davis

    Makes perfect sense, that as a oral thrombolytic agent, nattokinase very likely is a "scam."

    But, nattokinase's efficacy as an oral anticoagulant is not out of the question by the limited empirical evidence that exists.  Nattokinase begs to be studied in that regard, and should be before being totally declared a "scam."

    Would not nattokinase qualify as an important part of the TYP protocol if it does indeed prove to be an effective alternative for all thoughs people taking warfarin?

  • Gene

    8/22/2008 8:50:00 PM |

    I take it you disapprove of NK.
    Thank you for your insights.  It may or may not be that your paradigm colored your opinion, as it does with all of us, I suppose.  
    NK is an over-the-counter substance and, if taken on its face value, according to your analysis, it should be removed from the stores, as it is monkeying with primal forces.
    Therefore, either someone is asleep at the switch or the risk is not as purported (the risk of being ripped off is another department.)
    I think the scientific method is over-used as a sword and shield, yet doctors rely on their own experience all the time, even disagreeing with reports. My view there is no report not telling me to not eat wood screws.
    More real information is needed, but the drug companies, unlike what is suggested, will not be happy to find a cheap, generic solution to anything. though the president may use the solution. It is just the way reality has been organized.
    What is needed is a useful government, but we all know that is a wasted thought.
    Foreign research should not be put aside, not because to do so is some sort of racism, but because it may be balanced.
    Clearly, NK does something. We can't just throw our hands up and deny anecdotal experience, often quoted by intrigued doctors, and call people nuts. That may be sort of true, but it is a meaningless as blatant advocacy. Thus, we must wait and look for research, probably out of Japan.
    In the meantime, natto is OK if you add cinnamon. Forget that soy stuff.  Do this, and it is anti-inflammatory, too.
    Me, I am a fan of Serrapeptase and have not found much to dissuade me.

  • Anonymous

    9/8/2008 6:31:00 PM |

    Hello Dr. Davis

    While your credentials speak for themselves, I would submit that you simply do not have the nutritional background to support many of your claims re: Nattokinase. I base this on the typical Medical curriculum that includes on average a whopping equivalent of a weekend course at best... I suggest you look at the coagulation pathways that Nattokinase acts within and then you might be entitled to having an opinion that comes from reality and not your personal dogma.

  • Ryan W.

    10/5/2008 8:02:00 AM |

    Another fibrinolytic enzyme, serrapeptase, (which is also a serine protease) which is larger than nattokinase and also absorbed by the gut (if coated to pass through the stomach) is capable of breaking up bacterial biofilms, enhancing the effectiveness of antibiotics, and removing persistent bacterial infections.

    Serrapeptase is also used commonly as a painkiller and anti-inflammatory in Germany with no marked ill effects. The fact that it has fibrinolytic activity, is absorbed gastrointestinaly and still is safe makes me question your catagorical statements about nattokinase.

    I don't suppose you can cite any peer reviewed in vitro research that actually supports your view?

    The safety of natto aside for a moment, personally what I wonder is whether Natto's beneficial effects are from nattokinase or from a different serine protease found in natto.

    ----
    Because the control of the invasion of host cells by Listeria could potentially hinder its spread in the infected host, we have examined the effects of a protease treatment on the ability of L. monocytogenes to form biofilms and to invade tissues. We have chosen serratiopeptidase (SPEP), an extracellular metalloprotease produced by Serratia marcescens that is already widely used as an anti-inflammatory agent, and has been shown to modulate adhesin expression and to induce antibiotic sensitivity in other bacteria. Treatment of L. monocytogenes with sublethal concentrations of SPEP reduced their ability to form biofilms and to invade host cells.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18479885?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    CONCLUSIONS: Serratiopeptidase was effective for eradicating infection caused by biofilm-forming bacteria in this experimental animal model. The antibiofilm property of the enzyme may enhance antibiotic efficacy in the treatment of staphylococcal infections.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16757752?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

    Among the different mechanisms of bacterial resistance to antimicrobial agents that have been studied, biofilm formation is one of the most widespread. This mechanism is frequently the cause of failure in the treatment of prosthetic device infections, and several attempts have been made to develop molecules and protocols that are able to inhibit biofilm-embedded bacteria. We present data suggesting the possibility that proteolytic enzymes could significantly enhance the activities of antibiotics against biofilms. Antibiotic susceptibility tests on both planktonic and sessile cultures, studies on the dynamics of colonization of 10 biofilm-forming isolates, and then bioluminescence and scanning electron microscopy under seven different experimental conditions showed that serratiopeptidase greatly enhances the activity of ofloxacin on sessile cultures and can inhibit biofilm formation.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8109925?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum


    These results indicated QK-1 was a plasmin-like serine protease and QK-2 a subtilisin family serine protease.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14984705?ordinalpos=13&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

  • Dan

    10/8/2008 2:45:00 PM |

    "I don't have a heart problem. I have had debilitating muculoskeletal pain for over 8 years. Last week Friday, 3/7/08, I began taking a large dose of nattokinase. Results were evident in fewer than 4 hours and continue today, 8 days later. I am able to function without my usual pain medication and the adhesions and hypertone in my muscle tissue continue to decrease daily. Do you have any ideas why?"

    Dr. Davis,

    I have been taking NK since I wrote the quote, above.  In the past 6 months I have continued to experience improvement in my condition.

    I am a massage therapist, having worked on 1000's of clients, many with similar, but less severe, symptoms as mine.  I have never seen, nor experienced such a dramatic improvement in tissue health except with one client who began treatment with quinolin(many years ago), an anomoly to me at that time.

    I was a mechanical engineer, before head injury led to my physical dysfunction.  It is common, in every field of knowledge, for us to limit our options for problem solutions due to unfounded beliefs, often out of convenience, fear or ignorance.

    NK has allowed me to end my slow slide into physical pain and oblivion after more than 8 years of extensive, and intensive treatment(s) that had only succeeded in slowing my slide.  It has allowed me to return to massage practice, part time, to begin reconnecting with my family after years of isolation, and has given me reason to think that a return to engineering practice may one day be possible, too.

    That is a big claim, I realize, but it represents a careful evaluation of objective evidence of the beneficial action of NK in the human body, something I haven't found anywhere, to date. I don't know what makes NK work, but for people with hardened myofacsia, it improves their response to therapy, resulting in reduced pain and improved function in a much shorter time than is typical.  It's effects are obvious to palpation in less than 4hours.

    You have reason to question NK for lack of solid evidence. I don't expect my claim to change your position.  But I can tell you that my claim is solidly objective, the results are more repeatable than most medical claims, rising very near the level of empirical certainty.

    I hope this discussion leads others to unexpected solutions, as it has me.

  • Anonymous

    10/14/2008 5:59:00 PM |

    What the good Doctor unfortunately overlooks, is that most serious Nattokinase supplements are enteric coated tablets, and quite easily pass the acid barrier of the stomach, he also fails to mention that not all of Nattokinase, even in a non enteric protected form, is destroyed by stomach acid. For example , a diet rich in Natto, isn't suffering 100% lost to stomach acid, but rather a mere percentage, as with most any strict exclusive diet of one particular thing.

  • rudy

    11/19/2008 8:43:00 PM |

    i am taking natto 100mg primarily to make blood harder to clot, i have observed three things; 1) it is pretty potent, even with 100mg (2000FU), i had a bleeding in the gum is harder to clot, 2) my blood pressure have dropped about 8 points both high and low side, 3) like DAN, my myfascial pain is lessen ever since taking natto, at first i thought it was because of MSM, but actually it was natto that reduced my pain

    however, my father died from cerebal bleeding after he was given thrombolytic in ER for his heart attack, so i certainly do appreciate Dr.Davis point of view that sometimes clots are useful, and if you overdo it and use too much anticongulate agent (such as natto) it may have negative side effects one has to be careful

  • Anonymous

    12/3/2008 11:05:00 AM |

    By calling Nattokinase a "scam", one implies that current medical treatment is superior or less dangerous.  It encourages people on Coumadin to continue this dangerous drug, which has led to untold morbidity and mortality--and we won't go into the manufacturing debacles from China.  We really should not be comparing Coumadin/Warfarin (a product of the laboratory) with Nattokinase.  Coumadin and Warfarin do NOT dissolve blood clots. They simply prevent them from enlarging/prevent new clots, while the clots (hopefully) stabilize and do not embolize.  After stabilization of a clot against the vessel wall, one must exercise to increase plasmin in the blood in order to significantly affect breakdown.  Doctors DO NOT inform patients that Coumadin is not a fibrinolytic.  Most patients on Coumadin believe that Coumadin is breaking down their clots. Nattokinase supports the plasmin realm, working the way the body naturally does, to gradually break down clot constituents--no emboli are created.  ("-ase" indicates enzyme)  Some other enzymes and enzyme products can have anti-inflammatory properties, such as those naturally occuring in foods, those in the famous Wobenzym, and those in a number of digestive enzyme products absorbed through the gut.  Inflammation is a key factor in preventing aberrant clots.  But taking laboratory products, rather than foods or food derivatives, is what gets us in trouble.  We do not have the full knowledge of synergy in foods and conventional doctors tend to dismiss, rather than respect, what is unknown.  Synergy is why eating "live" food is so important.  I will stand by Hippocrates--"Let your food be your medicine and your medicine your food."  Treatments derived from foods (which have been alive) are safer than and, in the long term, superior to isolated, fractionated, or synthetic drugs.  Enzymes decrease inflammation because they allow it to resolve--breaking down the barriers in the circulatory and interstitial spaces, so that waste products can leave and nutrition can enter.  This may be why folks report effects on fibroids, muscle pain, and fatigue with enzymes such as Nattokinase and Wobenzym.  It supports the normal, continuous break-down/re-build process at work in the body.  Synthetic drugs target isolated effects (clots) from a bigger problem (inflammation) and fail to address root causes.  Enzymes have a more comprehensive effect--they also aid digestion, so that food does not putrefy, ferment, become rancid--absorption of which also causes inflammation and other undesirable effects on health.  We have 3 paths in the body that cause blood to clot and just one (plasmin) to break down clots. That speaks to the wisdom of the Creator--given a good, low inflammation diet of fresh foods with enzymes, clotting would not occur abnormally.  Bleeding (from injury), not aberrant clotting, would be the primary concern for us if we followed a healthy lifestyle.  With aging, there is more tendency to clotting--this parallels digestive problems (stomach, liver, gall bladder, pancreas, intestinal tract).  Conventional Doctors give acid preventer drugs, such as the purple pill, and antacids.  Natural doctors address healing of ulcers and leaky gut, if necessary, and give enzymes and hydrochloric acid supplements (HCl production declines by 1/2 by the time we reach 50--it's the lactic acid from food fermentation that typically causes heartburn).  One cannot   knowledgeably discuss whole foods or whole food derived supplements with a medical-style mindset--foods/phytonutrients are far more complex than synthetic drugs, and have  synergistic, protective effects that haven't been duplicated in the laboratory. Nattokinase is currently being researched for use in atrial fibrillation.

  • Anonymous

    12/10/2008 3:20:00 AM |

    I know someone who has essential thrombocytosis and her platelets were on a steady path upward until she started taking nattokinase with doctor supervision of her platelets.  They are now on a steady path downward and have already dropped by almost 400 in the last 2 months.  I'm not sure the risks are any moreso than taking a chemotherapy drug for the rest of your life which was the alternative. Anecdotal evidence should not be ignored.

  • lmontgom

    1/12/2009 4:11:00 AM |

    Nattokinase has been a miracle for me. I could barely walk or sleep because of chronic, pervasive pain in both my legs. My doctor x-rayed hips and knees, recommended replacements. She sent me to an orthopedist who asked if my knees and hips hurt. My "No" caused him to send me away. I asked for physical therapy. That helped little. Reading on the vitacost site, I found a comment on natto kinase that caused me to drive to my local health food store, buy some and take it immediately. By Day 2, my legs hurt much less. by Day 4, they stopped hurting. That was about 2 months ago, and the experience continues. In addition, occasional numbesses in my hands ceased. I urge Dr. Davis to look at the effects we are experiencing and find research telling him why it works. I know nothing about thrombolytics but am grateful that I have nattokinase and can walk!

  • Red Beard

    1/29/2009 5:35:00 PM |

    Everyone seems to be missing the most important argument against the effectiveness of nattokinase:  it is a protein enzyme, and there is not a single protein in this universe that can be taken up by our GI tract in its whole and active form.  Look at it this way:  there are a few rare diseases in which a person is unable to make some important enzyme on their own.  If enzyme replacement therapy is an option, this is always done intravenously, because we've known for a long time that you cannot introduce an enzyme in pill form and have it be functional in the blood stream.  If you could, enzyme replacement pills would be a multi-billion dollar industry!

    Yes, nattokinase may have all the effects that have been described vs. clotting, but this is only if you add it DIRECTLY to the blood.  The research that has been done that everyone quotes was not done by having people take this enzyme orally then examining their clotting function.  They either took blood out of a person and added it, or gave it to animals intravenously.  

    Secondly, even IF it was true that an enzyme like nattokinase could be orally active--which is impossible--its fibrinolytic properties would make it MORE DANGEROUS than aspirin in terms of serious side effects.

  • Karen

    2/10/2009 3:09:00 PM |

    and the alternative is coumadan (warfarin) WHICH IS RAT POISON. You are so wrong doctor.

  • Anonymous

    2/15/2009 1:50:00 PM |

    Nattokinase taken orally works, yoiu can find a lot of research on pubmed.
    Maybe stomach environment transforms it in something different, but what if that something is active against blood clotting?

  • Anonymous

    2/23/2009 6:41:00 PM |

    I have noted that NattoKinase as an oral blood thinner is asserted to be a scam here and the rationalisation for this is that there was no reliable research done to back it for what it is purported to do, right?.

    If I advocate anything, it is truth. Be aware that, whether it's a drug manufacturer, a food manufacturer, or a supplement manufacturer, they are willing takers of your money.

    Quote:
    "There are truly effective, powerful supplements out there. Nattokinase is not one of them."
    Dr.Davis

    Well what do you call asserting a negative (its a scam) without empirical research to back the assertion? Do we have the pot calling the kettle black?

    Apparently the research has proceeded to an empirical stage.
    A research summary can be seen here:
    http://www.xymogen.com/drr/RR-012-1104-07.pdf

    Excerpt from link;

    Research
    Two human trials and 17 other studies have been done
    on nattokinase. In a placebo-controlled study done by
    Dr. Sumi in which dogs were induced to have blood
    clots, oral administration of nattokinase (1 gm nattokinase
    as four 250 mg capsules) resulted in angiograms
    showing normal circulation and dissolution of the clot
    within five hours of treatment. In contrast, blood clots
    in the dogs receiving only a placebo did not show any
    signs of dissolution during the 18 hours following treatment.4
    Japanese researchers who studied nattokinase's ability
    to dissolve a thrombus in the carotid arteries of rats
    found that those given nattokinase regained 62% of
    blood flow, whereas those treated with plasmin regained only 15.8%.5
    Researchers from Oklahoma State University,Miyazaki Medical College and JCR Pharmaceuticals
    conducted a human study on 12 healthy volunteers (6 men and 6 women; ages 21-55 years). Before breakfast,each of the volunteers was given 200 grams of the food natto. Then, through a series of blood tests, the researchers tracked the fibrinolytic activity. On average, the volunteers' ELT (a measure of how long it takes to dissolve a blood clot) dropped by 48% within two hours of treatment. This heightened ability to dissolve blood clots was retained for 2 to 8 hours. In order to provide
    a control for the study, the same amount of boiled soybeans
    (non-fermented)was consumed by
    the volunteers. The same tests for fibrinolytic activity did
    not show any significant changes.6

    In recent years, several clinical trials on animals and humans have confirmed this action. A Wister rat study demonstrated on average a 12.7% decline in systolic blood pressure within two hours of a single administration of test extract directly into the
    peritoneum of the rats. These same researchers also confirmed the presence of angiotensin converting enzyme (ACE) inhibitors within the test extract of natto.7 The same extract was then tested on hypertensive human volunteers who took 30 grams of the extract for four consecutive days. In four out of five volunteers, the systolic blood pressure dropped an average of 10.9% and the diastolic dropped 9.7%.7,8

  • Anonymous

    3/2/2009 8:16:00 PM |

    During my last blood test, my C-Reactive Protein Test came out high (3.6) My doctor suggested nattokinase to see if that would reduce the inflammation.  After taking the nattokinase for a month I retested my CRP and the reading was 1.4.  Also, as a side note, I had continuous problems with a hemmroid which has disappeared.  I don't know if this was the nattokinase or not, but I wasn't taking anything else at the time.

  • FunkOdyssey

    3/3/2009 9:23:00 PM |

    You are incorrect in your assertion that nattokinase cannot be absorbed intact across the gut mucosa, and this is supported by published data in contrast to your opinion.  Its effects in humans after oral administration include a reduction of blood pressure:

    Hypertens Res. 2008 Aug;31(8):1583-8.

        Effects of nattokinase on blood pressure: a randomized, controlled trial.
        Kim JY, Gum SN, Paik JK, Lim HH, Kim KC, Ogasawara K, Inoue K, Park S, Jang Y, Lee JH.

        Yonsei University Research Institute of Science for Aging, Department of Food and Nutrition, College of Human Ecology, Yonsei University, and Department of Family Medicine, Mizmedi Hospital, Seoul, Korea.

        The objective of this study was to examine the effects of nattokinase supplementation on blood pressure in subjects with pre-hypertension or stage 1 hypertension. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, 86 participants ranging from 20 to 80 years of age with an initial untreated systolic blood pressure (SBP) of 130 to 159 mmHg received nattokinase (2,000 FU/capsule) or a placebo capsule for 8 weeks. Seventy-three subjects completed the protocol. Compared with the control group, the net changes in SBP and diastolic blood pressure (DBP) were -5.55 mmHg (95% confidence interval [CI], -10.5 to -0.57 mmHg; p<0.05) and -2.84 mmHg (CI, -5.33 to -0.33 mmHg; p<0.05), respectively, after the 8-week intervention. The corresponding net change in renin activity was -1.17 ng/mL/h for the nattokinase group compared with the control group (p<0.05). In conclusion, nattokinase supplementation resulted in a reduction in SBP and DBP. These findings suggest that increased intake of nattokinase may play an important role in preventing and treating hypertension.

        PMID: 18971533

    Some evidence of the fact that nattokinase is an orally effective fibrinolytic agent in humans that can be dangerous when used improperly:

    Intern Med. 2008;47(5):467-9. Epub 2008 Mar 3.
        Cerebellar hemorrhage provoked by combined use of nattokinase and aspirin in a patient with cerebral microbleeds.
        Chang YY, Liu JS, Lai SL, Wu HS, Lan MY.

        Department of Neurology, Chang Gung Memorial Hospital-Kaohsiung Medical Center, Chang Gung University College of Medicine, Kaohsiung, Taiwan.

        Nattokinase is used as a health-promoting medicine for preventing thrombosis due to its fibrinolytic activity. Cerebral microbleed is remnant of blood extravasations from the damaged vessels related to cerebral microangiopathies. We report a patient, having used aspirin for secondary stroke prevention, who had an acute cerebellar hemorrhage after taking nattokinase 400 mg daily for 7 consecutive days. In addition to the hemorrhagic lesion, multiple microbleeds were demonstrated on brain MR images. We suggest that nattokinase may increase risk of intracerebral hemorrhage in patients who have bleeding-prone cerebral microangiopathy and are receiving other antithrombotic agent at the same time.

        PMID: 18310985

    It seems nattokinase should be contraindicated in certain high risk populations and should not be combined with other antithrombotic agents.

  • Anonymous

    3/9/2009 9:58:00 PM |

    I am curious about your blanket statement that fibrinolytics are dangerous. Many plants contain significant amounts of proteases that are fibrinolytic; these survive the acid of the stomach, and a portion is absorbed into the blood. Bromelain from pineapple is one prominent example; kiwis also contain a similar protease. These have been used in large doses for decades with few side effects.

  • DVT research

    3/20/2009 8:25:00 PM |

    Sumi's work was a great start, but now there is some momentum and the recent human trials are very interesting.

    Dr. Davis seems to have been a bit prejudicial. Some clinical MDs are very linear thinkers. Dr. Davis, I hope will open his mind.

  • Anonymous

    3/23/2009 5:05:00 PM |

    The nattokinase bottle states not to take it with any type of blood thinning medication or anticoagulant.  Aspirin of itself can cause a brain bleed

  • Jonathan Byron

    4/3/2009 12:59:00 PM |

    Blanket assumptions that proteolytic enzymes simply cannot be absorbed should be reconsidered.

    Here a study that found that orally administered bromelain enzyme is absorbed into the blood intact.

    Intestinal absorption of undegraded proteins in men: presence of bromelain in plasma after oral intake.


    Here are the conclusions of another review on bromelain:
    Bromelain, a standardized complex of proteases from the pineapple plant, is absorbed unchanged from the intestine of animals at a rate of 40%; in animal experiments it was found to have primarily anti-edema, antiinflammatory, and coagulation-inhibiting effects. These effects are due to an enhancement of the serum fibrinolytic activity and inhibition of the fibrinogen synthesis, as well as a direct degradation of fibrin and fibrinogen."

    On the pharmacology of bromelain

  • joker247

    4/5/2009 6:34:00 PM |

    just a comment on surviving stomach acid - I have UC, so I don't take blood thinners (if I started bleeding internally, where would you put the tourniquet?)
    However I do take an anti-inflammatory called ASACOL which has a polymeric coating that only dissolves in an alkaline environment so that the active ingredient gets where it needs to go, the colon. Unless this coating process is patented, it seems that it IS possible to have an active ingredient survive stomach acid. I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon of sensationalized products - as a former chemist I have a bit of wisdom in that regard - but if you really want to get something past the upper digestive tract it seems quite possible.

  • Anonymous

    4/8/2009 6:20:00 PM |

    My opinion is its all about the money  If you are protecting the Drug Companies,than only 3 people know about it. You,.the Drug Companies, and GOD. Every drug made has killed more people than it has cured. Eternity is a very long time I wish you the best

  • Anonymous

    4/14/2009 4:25:00 PM |

    April 14, 2009 Tues. I am 80 year of age, I have been eating fresh made Natto every day for the past 6 years.  My neuclear stress test has shown that I have a 52% blood flow thru my left ventricle of my heart, which I have been told by my doctor is very exceptional and good. Blood pressure rarely above 120/80 Natto is good for you, eat it.  These scientific guys are wrong quite often????

  • Anonymous

    5/3/2009 7:31:00 AM |

    I spent 25 years in medicine. I used to be somewhat close-minded or skeptical to some things so far as natural supplements were concerned.

    I feel that Dr. Davis is obviously close minded and speaks more like someone who is backed by Big Pharma.

    Dr. Davis -- There IS research out there and proven studies advocating the use and effectiveness of nattokinase. You just do not want to hear it for whatever reason.

    Here is a brief article written by pharmacist Dave Foreman who is an RPh, ND and well known author, lecturer and radio host:

    "In 1980, Doctor Hiroyuki Sumi was in the middle of searching for a natural agent that had thrombolytic effects (able to break up blood clots). The enzyme he was looking for would be able to dissolve the clots associated with heart attacks and stroke. After testing over 100 natural foods as potential clot busters, Dr Sumi accidentally found what he was looking for when Natto was dropped onto artificial thrombus (fibrin) in a Petri dish. The thrombus around the Natto dissolved gradually and had completely dissolved within 18 hours. Dr Sumi named the newly discovered enzyme "nattokinase", which means "enzyme in natto".

    To understand the importance of this discovery, let's go back to biology class for a second. Blood clots form when strands of protein called fibrin accumulate in a blood vessel. In the heart, blood clots cause blockage of blood flow to muscle tissue. If blood flow is blocked, the oxygen supply to that tissue is cut off and it eventually dies. This can result in angina and heart attacks. Clots in chambers of the heart can mobilize to the brain. In the brain, blood clots also block blood and oxygen from reaching necessary areas, which can result in senility and/or stroke.

    For many, Nattokinase may be the biggest discovery for natural approaches to cardiovascular health. But what is Nattokinase? Nattokinase is a potent fibrinolytic (breaks down fibrin) enzyme extracted and purified from a traditional Japanese food called Natto. Natto is a cheese-like food and is produced by a specific fermentation process of soybeans. Natto has been used in Japan for over 1,000 years for cardiovascular support and to lower blood pressure. Natto is the only preparation that contains the remarkable nattokinase enzyme with fibrin-dissolving properties.

    Why is Nattokinase so important? The enzyme is capable of breaking down and dissolving blood clots formed in a vessel or heart chamber and can enhance the body's natural ability to fight clotting of the blood. Unlike the class of medications called antithrombin, Nattokinase produces a prolonged action (lasting from 8 - 12 hours) in preventing coagulation of blood and dissolving existing clots.

    As a pharmacist and ND, I think that this discovery is and should be considered a major discovery for those concerned with cardiovascular health issues and general overall health. I come from a family history of cardiovascular disease and have started using Nattokinase personally to help prevent circulatory episodes in the future.

    Beyond the more obvious uses mentioned above, Nattokinase has shown to provide other health benefits. Here is a small list of some of the other potential health benefits of Nattokinase:

    Hemorrhoids and varicose veins
    Diabetes (caused by pancreatic dysfunction)
    Senile dementia
    Fibromyalgia
    Muscle spasms
    Poor healing
    Chronic inflammation

    I believe in using Nattokinase in combination with other enzymes. I believe in using balance and enzymes are no exception to this philosophy. Enzymes support many different facets of health and in this case, Nattokinase is the one to use for cardiovascular health. Regretfully, for those of us who are healthy, it is hard to notice any changes, but with the science behind Nattokinase, you can get piece of mind knowing that you are doing something proactive to help your cardiovascular health.

    Nattokinase is extremely important for circulation and circulatory disorders. If you look at the physiology of the body and understand how Nattokinase works, you can easily understand why this may be a supplement that even the healthiest of people would want to use.

    Finally, the one concern many natural health enthusiasts have is about safety. When looking for a quality Nattokinase, you need to look for one with the vitamin K removed. Natto contains the highest concentration of Vitamin K known in food. Significant amounts of Vitamin K2 are produced during the fermentation process of Nattokinase. By removing most or all of the Vitamin K2 you will eliminate any potential adverse drug interactions with warfarin (Coumadin), a Vitamin K antagonist pharmacological agent typically used an anticoagulant."

    I seriously hope that Dr. Davis will drop the attitude towards nattokinase and open his mind to the PROOF that IS out there supporting the use and  effectiveness of nattokinase.

    Making false statements such as calling nattokinase "a scam" makes people even more leery of doctors in this day and age. Rightfully so.

    Big Pharma has so many Dr's. blinded (or in their hip pockets) in this day and age and I feel that this may also be the case with Dr. Davis.

    I too made mistakes in putting too much faith in alopathic medicine and my own training. That all changed when I developed many significant health issues and was at one time on a dozen different prescription meds daily.

    No longer. I take natural supplements and my health is greatly improved. I'm on only 2 or 3 medications per day. Modern pharmaceutical agents almost cost me my life!

    Let's wake up people. Prescription medications and ignorance are the real killers!

  • Anonymous

    5/3/2009 7:39:00 AM |

    Dr. Davis - I encourage you to do some research on Dr. Stephen Sinatra. He is a board certified Cardiologist and nationally known speaker and best selling author.

    Dr. Sinatra advocates the use of Nattokinase and has switched many of his patients to taking it as opposed to harmful pharmaceuticals.

    Yes, there is the need for coumadin in some cases - but Dr. Sinatra has wondeful success with patients taking nattokinase!

    You owe it to yourself to check out Dr. Sinatra and what he has to say about Natto. There are enough documented studies that promote the safety and effectiveness of nattokinase.

    I hope you too will come to the realization that Nattokinase is not a scam and does in fact work!

  • Anonymous

    5/5/2009 12:10:00 AM |

    I have fibroids and a cyst on my only ovary-I have never had children and I want to. Can Nattokinase help me? What affect will 100 mg 2000 FU do for me or to me? I want real help because I am running out of options that will keep my fertility intact and rid some of these fibroids so they don't take over my uterus. PLEASE HELP!

  • Anonymous

    5/7/2009 5:04:00 PM |

    Anyone wondering if nattokinase can survive the gut and enter the bloodstream has only to search PubMed. Dr. Davis is incorrect in his assertion that nattokinase is rendered ineffective by transit through the gut. There are interesting studies suggesting that nattokinase can lower blood pressure and inhibit restenosis after angioplasty.

  • Anonymous

    5/21/2009 9:40:29 PM |

    Does anyone know, if when taking Nattokinase, a person can remain active in contact sports or does it thin the blood too much?

  • KRyan

    5/22/2009 5:12:44 PM |

    If your worried about stomach acid destroying nattokinase or any other acid sensitive supplement, just make sure your stomach acid is low. Take them on an empty stomach when there is no need for stomach acid. Take them with water to dilute the acid. I think you'll be surprised at how high the ph will go just from the water alone. (I wonder if people drink to many fluids with their meals and it hinders digestion or puts stress on the body to produce greater loads of acid) More info on stomach acid and reactions with food, supplements,enzymes etc http://www.care2.com/news/member/956805373/322081

  • terraoutwest

    5/28/2009 10:25:06 PM |

    Factor Five Leiden is my main problem, not the usual plaque and cholesterol type issues with blood clots. I recently had a minor heart attack where the blood clot developed in the heart itself (they think) and now I'm on warfarin 5mg. I'm an athlete and although I don't intend to "hurt myself, (who does?)the opportunity for bumps, bruises and scrapes is there. I really don't like the other side effects of warfarin either. I would really like to get away from the pharmaceuticals and on to something more natural with less (or no) side effects. Surely there is some other way to manage Factor Five patients who are otherwise quite healthy. And... I miss my leafy greens!  Any research out there on management of Factor Five without Coumadin?

  • Carla B

    6/4/2009 4:52:48 AM |

    To the person who posted anonymously on december 9, 2008. I am desperately looking for a natural way to treat my escalating thrombocytosis. Would love to talk to your friend. If you're still tuned into this post, please reach me at purpledots at pacbell dott net. I would be forever grateful.

  • Anonymous

    6/4/2009 5:18:50 AM |

    To the anonymous person who left the comment on December 9, 2008 with the friend who's thrombocytosis was improved with nattokinase: I'm desperately trying to find something natural to treat mine. If you're still tuned in to this post, please drop me a line at purpledots at pacbell dott net. I would be forever grateful.

  • Anonymous

    6/10/2009 2:39:19 PM |

    I have various fibroids - the biggest is the size of a canteloupe - or was - since taking Natto for 2 weeks - it is shrunk. I cannot say that it was the Natto for sure, but I changed nothing else.  

    Natto was easier for me to find that Nattokinase.  I have heard that Natto is not popular amongst Westerners but I have no problem with it.

    If it helps those willing to try - its texture is like a tin of baked beans mixed into a tablespoon of a beaten egg. While at the Asian supermarket - where I bought the Natto in the chilled storage section - I also bought a bottle of Chili Soy Sauce (from the Chinese section) and the Chili Soy Sauce is yummy with the Natto.  But then I do like Chili Soy Sauce.  Its worth trying. The Natto that is - add a sauce flavor you like, if it makes it more palatable to you.  The real Natto is way cheaper than the supplement, and in my view it is the supplement manufacturer's that are putting us off eating the cheaper, natural Natto by saying things like it is disgusting - but then some people don't like beaten egg.  PS there are many different types of Natto and I am working my way through.  I can't read Japanese - so all I can tell you is so far I like the ones in the Green wrapper and also the ones in the yellow wrapper.  They are stacked as three small trays each and I eat half a tray every 2 days.

  • Anonymous

    6/14/2009 4:33:21 PM |

    My father had a DVT 2 years ago.  He was started on heparin and then switched to coumadin and had complete resolution of his clots.  He didn't like the idea of being on warfarin for the rest of his life and switched to natto instead.  He had not been feeling well over the course of the past 3 weeks but didn't want to see his doctor until he collapsed at home and was rushed to the ED via ambulance.  He had numerous pumlmonary emboli as well as large clots in his pulmonary artery and the veins of both legs.  The doctors told him that he had probably been throwing clots for weeks if not months.  He is set to be released today and is already talking about when he can get off the warfarin and back on the natto.  I think this is clearly a failure of the natto to prevent and/or treat the clots.  I do not know if the warfarin would have prevented them or not, but due to the number of clots in multiple vessels I am pushing for him to continue the warfarin.  Warfarin certainly has side effects but it is the gold standard for preventing blood clots.  Unless there is a study natto is superior to warfarin then I wouldn't recommend using it.  BTW he had been taking natto for several years prior to his first DVT, so it didn't prevent that one either.

  • terraoutwest

    6/15/2009 2:46:58 PM |

    What about the earthworm based lumbrokinase? Anyone out there tried this?

    It sounds more disgusting than Natto, but I believe there have been more/better studies on it and has accepted as a better alternative (at least) by the Naturopathic doctors.

  • Anonymous

    7/6/2009 2:15:22 AM |

    Anonymous, June 14, 2009 :

    What brand name of Nattokinase did your father take? Be assured there are REPUTABLE brands out there, but also MANY FAKES!

    Just because a brand is cheap does not mean it is reputable. Many of the fakes out there claim to be reputable, and even provide you with a 'certificate', but in reality they have no active ingredients!

    A reputable brand would be (as an example) Allergy Research.

  • Anonymous

    7/6/2009 2:22:54 AM |

    terraoutwest  May 28, 2009

    Nattokinase might just be your ticket. It has virtually no side effect;, the 'real' stuff has no vitamin K in it, so it can be used with warfarin, but if you do it w/o warfarin, then you can eat and drink whatever you want to and however much you want to. The only thing you should not do is to take nattokinase together with other enzymes. Wait a couple hours between each.
    I have factor v leiden, and am on nattokinase since about eight years now. No clots.
    Cannot overdose on it either. Make sure you get a reputable brand.

  • Anonymous

    7/11/2009 4:00:19 AM |

    RE:"Everyone seems to be missing the most important argument against the effectiveness of nattokinase: it is a protein enzyme, and there is not a single protein in this universe that can be taken up by our GI tract in its whole and active form."

    Never say never, or should I regret having just violated that rule by saying never.

    Prions are a class of proteins that modify other proteins.  If taken orally, it will cause illness like mad cow disease.  It is believed that the prion modifies other proteins in the brain in a cascading fashion, eventually causing total cns dysfunction by converting increasing number of proteins into more prions.

    My point, saying all proteins can not survive low pH in the stomach is too broad of a statement to make.  I am afraid modern sciences is not yet able to explain all events that can take place in the body.

    Saying one should be skeptical of nattokinase is justifiable, but declaring nattokinase to be a scam is a claim that calls for more evidence, in my opinion.

    If I witness first hand cases in which natto proves to be effective, I will then become skeptical of the claim that nattokinase is a scam.

    I hope the same will be true for Dr. Davis.

  • Anonymous

    7/19/2009 11:49:43 PM |

    Nearly a year ago I could barely function due to endometriosis. I was working from home only a few hours a week because the pain was so bad. I just wanted to lay around and have someone put me out of my misery.

    I then began purchasing Fibrovan which has nattokinase in it. It didn't take long before I started noticing positive results. Little by little I started improving. The pain began lessening. My blood pressure improved.My energy improved. I was able to go for long walks and I'm back working full time outside the home, doing a very physically demanding job working in a hospital.

    A scam is something that is  fraudulent or deceptive. I in no way feel like I have been scammed. My health has improved and for that I am thankful.

  • citizen alan

    7/20/2009 5:08:10 PM |

    I think the work of Linus Pauling definitely indicates that EVERYONE on ANY sort of anti-coagulant should be supplementing with Vitamin C. My dad was taking aspirin (as a preventative) without letting me know and wound up with blood collecting in his eyes.  Permanently half-blind, a condition that I believe would have been totally avoidable had he also supplemented with at least 500 mg/day of Vitamin C.

  • Anonymous

    7/24/2009 6:30:18 PM |

    My husband and I eat natto, and while not Japanese, I have come to like it. We buy several packs and freeze them.

    We think natto tastes good with chopped green onions or chives, and/or some grated daikon radish, along with a bit of soy sauce.

    Sometimes we also mix natto with a bit of soy sauce, a very small amount of grated ginger, finely shredded radish leaves (leaves of the familiar small, red-skinned-white-inside radishes), and some of the dried fish flakes called "katsuobushi," which is available in small packets at Japanese food stores.

    If you eat natto along with rice, it will probably be easier to get down.

  • Anonymous

    8/5/2009 10:33:31 PM |

    Dr. Davis,

    I don't know if you are right or not on this matter.  If the stomach destroys Nattokinase, how then is there any effect, good or bad?  My wife has fibrosis in her bone marrow and we just discovered today that this substance may stop or reverse this activity.  The alternative is a steady downgrade and finally death.  I am concerned that she is on a baby aspirin along with her chemo as that might not be a good thing to take with this; we will be seeing the oncologist next week again and ask.  

    In any case, I appreciate your attempt to warn, and hope that whoever does not agree would be kind in their remarks and suggestions.  Thank you.

  • Anonymous

    8/12/2009 8:01:50 PM |

    My experience is only anecdotal. After going through a triple by-pass I was put on Plavix, aspirin, etc.  I din't experience the blotches (internal bleeding) that a co-worker who had a stent put in did.  

    But when I added NK about 5 months in I did experience them and consequently cut the Plavix rather than the NK.

    That was a couple years ago and still continue the NK. Wouldn't mind trying the Natto though I would have to go up to Tucson to get it.

    So it could have been just a coincidence but as an engineer I don't really believe in them or half the crap the medical community tries to foist off as fact.  No offense, Doc.  Smile

  • lmontgom

    8/19/2009 8:51:51 PM |

    Dr. Davis:
    Why have you been silent on nattokinase for so long?  I continue to derive great benefit from it.  I would not be walking today because of muscle weakness and pain were it not for nattokinase, which I buy from vitacost.com.

  • Anonymous

    9/8/2009 6:58:32 PM |

    VERY TELLING how Dr. Davis has disappeared, stopped replying when confronted with the double-blind studies that show he's wrong.

    I'm disappointed.  I was considering signing up for the Track Your Plaque program, but forget it.

    This guy has shown that if he's not selling it, he's not buying it either.

  • Fran

    9/22/2009 4:13:25 AM |

    I searched your blog for "serrapeptase", another supplement that claims to be a natural Chelation-Anti-Inflammatory. From serrapeptase info website: "Serrapeptase digests non-living tissue, blood clots, cysts, and arterial plaque and inflammation in all forms." Have you written any blogs about this product?

  • Anonymous

    9/26/2009 3:24:59 PM |

    lmontgom said...
    Dr. Davis:
    Why have you been silent on nattokinase for so long? I continue to derive great benefit from it. I would not be walking today because of muscle weakness and pain were it not for nattokinase, which I buy from vitacost.com

    Please tell me what brand name you bought, I want to be sure to get one that someone has experienced success with! i have always experienced heavy bleeding during menstration but 2 yrs ago it got worse, now I have been bleeding for 3 weeks VERY heavy, hemoglobin down (will need blood transfusion soon), i have fibroids and i have an ultra sound scheduled to see if the fibroids have increased in size, but the treatments that my dr has suggested are ablation or hysterectomy (have 2 children and although I don't currently want any more, not sure if i am ready to close that door, still in my 30s).  I've spoke to many women who have experienced this and am just appalled that some dr's i have seen sit so nonchalant while i explain what is happening as if flowing quarts of blood out of you is completly acceptable!!  Although I have read reviews where nattokinase has not worked for some people, I have not read any reviews where people have experienced negative side effects.  I will try nattokinase and post again, but again, what brand do you buy, I want a reputable brand?

  • Anonymous

    9/28/2009 3:54:08 PM |

    I am interested in NK. This forum has been on for over two years initiated by valid criticisms from Dr. Davis. The respondents are all intelligently fluid in their arguments. There is one thing missing.

    Dr. Davies mentioned side affects of good blood clots dissolving. I imagine anyone with these symptoms would be very miserable or dead and the diagnosis of cause very, very difficult. Of the previous respondents how many have suffered these symptoms? How would we ever know? Could everyone who is PRO NK assign a close relative to update this forum if something happens?

  • Anonymous

    10/1/2009 5:03:44 AM |

    As a mother of 3 adult sons, I have a dilemma! My youngest son (25 yrs) was recently diagnosed with a DVT in his leg. While my oldest son (today 34 yrs) had a blood cloth in his brain 6 yrs ago. Doctors then declared to be a "very rare" case and not to worry that it would happen again. Last Sept, he developed a DVT in his leg. He is now on Coumadin for life.

    I had contacted a Naturopath earlier (Feb 09) who told me that he has helped many patients with similar conditions with Nattokinase.
    As my boys are very young in age (tests do not show genes as both parents have no problems) I would really appreciate some feedback.

  • Tom

    10/19/2009 5:46:32 AM |

    To many people with so little grasp of basic physiology.

    1. Proteins are denatured in the stomach, not degraded. Degradation occurs in the small intestine and can not be avoided because this is also the purported  site of absorbtion.

    2. Intact proteins can not be absorbed. If intact proteins could be absorbed, pretty much all food would be 100% fatal.

    3. If Nattokinase did even half of what is claimed, Dr. Davis is quite right, it would kill you.


    I think most of the miracle cures being claimed by other commentors are either placebo, or missattributed. (I might point out that, in most cases described, the symptoms alleviated could have resulted from a severe vitamin K deficiency, and might be alleviated by the fact that these crude isolates of natto CONTAIN VITAMIN K)




    Nattokinase is produced and market heavily by the same guys who sell you trypsin and chymotrypsin pills in the form of wobenzyme with the claim that those enzymes are able to have a systemic effect.  Clearly the naturally occurring enzyme trypsin (which functions to lyse proteins in the small intestine) could not possibly leave the small intestine without killing you.


    I had a dog once that had a intestinal defect that did allow intact proteins be absorbed from its intestine. Obviously this dog didn't live very long. Think massive fluid imbalances and kidney failure.

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/19/2009 10:04:18 PM |

    Hi, Tom--

    Excellent points.

    The fanaticism that surrounds this absurd approach continues to astound.

  • Anonymous

    10/20/2009 10:52:51 PM |

    From one who has taken nattokinase for a couple of years I find your comments while logically consistent - wrong.

    Nattokinase blew out my arteriosclerosis as evidenced by the elasticity of my blood vessels, reduced my BP. and appears to have cleared out my blood debris. It doesn't replace fish oil, so I will take both - intemittently.

  • Anonymous

    10/22/2009 2:51:32 PM |

    So, how do you research the companies, marketing Nattokinase, to know if the ingredients are real or not?

  • Anonymous

    10/26/2009 1:02:17 AM |

    There is research the supports the concept that the human GI tract can absorb intact proteins:

    http://ajpgi.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/273/1/G139

    http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146%2Fannurev.nu.08.070188.001553

  • Tom

    10/26/2009 6:06:40 AM |

    That first link is only pseudo science done on a small scale by scientific guns for hire, (note that the institute La Fey specializing in being contracted by private R&D entities, and also observe that each author has published about 1 dubious article in just about every field).

    The second only involves trace absorption of 2-3 residue peptides, with some exceptions due to the role of erythrocytes as antigen presenting cells.  It is possible that this mechanism would allow an ingested peptide to be presented intact or in fragments to the immune system with immunomodulating effects(as is clearly the case with certain foodborne allergies and conditions). It is possible that these enzyme products might produce a beneficial effect through that or other unknown mechanisms, but the makers of these products do not make that claim, perhaps due to its complexity. Rather, they invariably make simple, easily marketed claims.


    But that is besides the point,
    those who market and promote Nattokinase and other "enzyme" healing products deceptively make claims that are unsupported, contradictory, and physiologically unfeasible.   One should always be wary of any product, natural or otherwise that makes broad unsupported claims as to how and what it does.

  • lmontgom

    10/26/2009 7:15:16 PM |

    Everyone -- users, researchers, docs -- should remember that each human body is unique.  For those of us who have used nattokinase and say it works (meaning it stops the pain, in my case), who are you to say that we should discontinue it?  I will order natto itself just to be sure nothing has happened in the processing of nattokinase that changes its impact in the body.  Until then, I will use what works for me and trust that Dr. Davis and the rest of the nay-sayers would do the same.

  • Anonymous

    10/29/2009 5:30:58 PM |

    Dear Doc -
    if NK is a scam like you say, then how can it be dangerous?  since a scam is afterall a fake.    yet you say the people who eat the food get some kind of benefit and no ill effects?    

    this does not make any sense.

  • Anonymous

    10/29/2009 11:14:55 PM |

    Not sure what you mean by "pseudoscience" in terms of bromelain absorption (the protein in question my posting of 10/25).  

    This would no doubt come as a surprise to Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, who states:  "Orally administered bromelain is absorbed intact through the intestine. Because of its proteolytic activity, about 50% of bromelain is rapidly complexed with an antiproteinase, namely alpha-2-macroglobulin (AMG). Proteolytic activity is maintained within this protective molecule, but reduced. In a recent human study, plasma half-life was determined to be 6-9 hours. Orally administered bromelain is absorbed at a rate of 40% in animal studies."

    I would also remind you that cyclosporine is an 11 polypeptide molecule that is administered orally.


    Thrombolysis is a natural occuring event.  All blood clots secrete thrombolysins. The question is now much, how its mediated, etc.  It's like saying no one should take Coumadin or Lovenox, because they would all become hemophiliacs and bleed to death.

    I would agree that the story on nattokinase is not complete.  But calling it a "scam" is merely the obverse of calling it a "miracle drug."

  • Tom

    10/30/2009 4:09:16 AM |

    Seriously? You refute me refuting your paper by citing a source which cites the same fake research paper? It is pseudoscience because all the names associated with the paper are people are hired to write whatever paper/conclusion you want. BTW, the paper only goes so far as to say that over a 48 hour period 10.8 micrograms were in the ENTIRE plasma. May I offer you a book titled "How To Lie With Statistics"?


    For a much more in depth study of bromelian absorption look for a 1971 study published in the Japanese Journal of Pharmacology titled Gastrointestinal Absorption And Anti Inflammatory Effect of Bromelian. That study was done in dogs, but they found the half life of intravenous bromelian was only about one hour. They also found that less than .052% of a intraduodenal dose of labeled bromelian was absorbed "intact" based on the assumption that radioactive proteins of similar mass and isoelectric point found in the plasma were in fact bromelian. Their immunological assays detected that the actual amount of bromelian was MUCH less.  The absorption you quote, 40%, is absurd.

    Also, cyclosporine is only 11 residues long, cyclic, and composed of D-amino acids not normally encountered in nature.  11 is much smaller than 275 for nattokinase.  Yes some proteins can be absorbed, like botulin toxin (on a nanogram scale), but not the huge amounts claimed by the natto guys.

  • Anonymous

    11/4/2009 1:24:26 PM |

    Why would someone buy supplements? The whole supplement industry kinda' confuses me over all. Nattou is delicious... just eat nattou. There are lots of foods that have vitamins and nutritional value that you can receive if you just eat a varied diet. As long as you're eating a variety of healthy foods, taking supplements is a big fat waste of money!

  • Chris33780

    11/11/2009 9:29:45 AM |

    Dr Davis said: "The data I've looked at re: nattokinase has been proprietary, generated clearly by a manufacturer. Until some real science emerges, even modest, to support this otherwise counterintuitive strategy, it remains something that has no value for our plaque reducing focus."

    Why would the FDA bother with producing real science on something they cannot patent and gain a return on their investment? I am not going to fall for criticism of the effectiveness of a substance just because money cannot be made by the FDA. The people I hear putting nattokinase down want proof by FDA approval, and this would only happen if it could be patentable, which a natural substance cannot be.

  • Dr. William Davis

    11/11/2009 1:07:21 PM |

    Earth to Chris:

    The FDA does NOT generate data to support or refute any drug or supplement. They are only a regulating agency.

  • Anonymous

    11/22/2009 2:39:06 AM |

    I am just starting to look into this issue having recently been diagnosed with a DVT.

    I appreciate that Dr. Davis has taken the time to explain why he refutes certain natto claims.  I am squarely in the camp of proof via empirical evidence; even more so when people stand to profit from a mere suggestion that something benefits you in a particular way.

  • Anonymous

    12/1/2009 4:48:30 AM |

    Here's the problem with blasting nattokinase based on stomach acid acidity or fear of indiscriminate breakdown of "good" clots as an unwanted side effect: this kind of Western, Descartian thinking when applied to the complex human body so often proves to be simply wrong. There are studies that show vitamin B2 promotes cancer growth, for example, but others that show increased vitamin C counteracts that effect. Perhaps the Japanese who ingest more nattokinase and have fewer fractures benefit from it in ways that are similar to users of whole herbs who do better than those who use just the "active ingredient" isolated from the same herbs. "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio..." I eat Natto miso and LOVE it. It tastes great in soup or rice and veggies. I've gone out of my way to find it via internet/mail order after our co-op stopped carrying it. I feel great after I eat it. I also tried buying a bottle of nattokinase and found that my trigeminal neuralgia gets worse after taking it, or seems to. I've only tried it a very few times so perhaps it was coincidental. (When you have something this painful you don't play around with trying things that seem to make it worse.) I also notice bromelain makes it worse, and from what I've read that, too, is fibrinolytic, right? And that one has a lot of research showing it somehow survives the stomach acid, doesn't it? I'm going from memory of quickly scanned articles, there, so may be all wrong. A final thought: I've heard that vegans have substantially less stomach acid than meat eaters. Have there been any studies on this? My intuition is there is probably something to this, and the difference may be quite significant. My wife and I often think our desire for sugar after protein is out of a need to generate more acid than we tend to produce normally. Just some thoughts to encourage a less "know-it-all" attitude so common among doctors trained in the USA and other Western cultures. I almost think sometimes it is a personality trait that is a prerequisite for getting through Med schools here, having a mind that quickly closes.

  • Trey

    12/5/2009 7:41:22 PM |

    Dr. Davis...isn't it true that you as a physician are bound by the laws of the medical community and face a severe fine or possibly loss of license for recommending anything out of conventional treatment? The same treatments such as the same thing we have done tirelessly for years for cancer treatment (Chemotherapy) amd that also as a doctor going through medical school Doctors are taught very little about nutrition?

  • Anonymous

    12/14/2009 10:08:31 PM |

    Could the proliferation of various electromagnetic-radiation-producing technologies within the last century (electricity/electrical power lines, radio, radar, cell phone and wifi towers and antennas) be the underlying mechanism behind the increased risk of heart attacks and strokes in industrialized nations, more so than diet?

    I ask because I've read several articles which seem to indicate that calcium metabolism is affected by these exposures to electromagnetic/radiofreqency/microwave radiation. Specifically, calcium's 'efflux' - its movement into and out of cells - is affected by these exposures.

    http://electromagnetichealth.org/electromagnetic-health-blog/the-cell-phone-and-the-role-of-calcium/

  • ron

    12/30/2009 2:49:14 PM |

    I have had two heart attacks, the last one after a quintuple bypass. Unfortunately, no tests are done as to the bodies rejection factor of sutures used in bypass surgery, resulting in two of the bypass grafts failing (disintegrating) and the remaining grafts heavily crusted by the bodies rejection mechanisms. I am still strong and active, plavix and aspirin daily with BP meds. During a recent angiogram, the Dr. tore the saphenous vein graft to my rt. cor. art. causing a large thrombus. Hence the present meds. Anyone used NK in this instance.
    I know it sounds scary, but I have no chest pain, exercise daily BP 120/60 HR 60. Any other input would be appreciated.
    Ron

  • Anonymous

    12/30/2009 6:42:47 PM |

    The real scam is American medicine that has for years led people to believe it is about "health" and "care".  In reality, it is about money.  Follow the money, you'll always find the answer.  Big Pharma is big business, plain and simple.  Most doctors don't give a hoot about their patients.  With Big Pharma rewarding doctors for prescribing their drugs, doctors have lost credibility in favor of montary persuasion.  It's no longer what's best for the patient, but what profits the practitioner.

  • Anonymous

    1/4/2010 2:09:54 AM |

    Dr. Davis, by not publishing one's comments you likely think nattokinase will lose credibility.  Regardless of what Big Pharma-rewarded MDs think in this country, nattokinase works.  However, I understand the tenacles of Big Pharma reach far and wide and why you would be afraid to publish my comment clearly showing NK worked.  U.S. medicine is gravely lacking in many ways.  I dare you to publish my prior comment regarding how four (count 'em 4) MDs couldn't diagnose the obvious >2 ft. clot in my left leg despite my emphatically telling them it was a clot.  Indeed and in fact, many practitioners have egos that arrive 20 minutes before they do!  I suppose you think the American people should have confidence in a system controlled by drug companies.  You have immensely increased my respect for the Japanese where research is not sponsored by Big Pharma.  Instead of criticizing the Japanese and Nattokinase, perhaps you should start emulating!!

  • Holly

    1/10/2010 4:24:46 AM |

    I am a patient who has antiphospholipid syndrome.  I also have low factor VIII levels. Before this was diagnosed, in 2008, I suffered over 5 strokes (only 1 left me with some small permanent damage, luckily) and countless tia's (am in my 50's and there was no other medical reason for me to be having stroke/tia).
    Because of the low factor VIII levels, my hematologist explained I was not a candidate for warfarin, however we tried heparin injections for 4 months.  My body could not tolerate them, it was explained to me that there was nothing which could be done for me.  (yes, I did have a second opinion).  
    Several months later I was introduced to nattokinase at Allergy Research Group.  After much research, started taking 400 mg. daily, divided.  This was 2 years ago.  Since that time I have had one tia.  My hematologist is familiar with nattokinase, but will not support it, so I have had to leave her.  However I am working with my internist who does support it and gives me the proper blood tests; everything is in order.
    Allergy Research Group addresses the question of stomach acid you bring up; they have printed much with the limited research which has been able to be done.  Before closing your book completely on this subject, perhaps you might look a bit further - many people are being helped by this where no other help is available.  
    Natto is not a scam.  It IS important to get quality product and there ARE inferior products out there.  It is always vital to study carefully when one is venturing into any alternative health remedy and remember that someone is ready to take your money all too easily.  It is just as vital to remember that western medicine, as marvelous as it is, does not have all the answers.  All too often doctors can be very closed minded without doing proper research.

  • Anonymous

    1/29/2010 3:39:51 AM |

    A very interesting thread for sure.

    I had Massive PE last year.  It stemmed from walking pneumonia (treated as adult onset asthma)
    PE never showed up on scans as no contrast was used.  
    They even did a heart cath on me while I had massive PE and could hardly breath (they thought I was nervous)  Major Pulmonary HTN and Massive PE found a week later at a University clinic via spiral CT.
    I could not walk 10 feet, they just said "You out of shape" hehe I'm 40 and play singles comp. tennis.  

    I did have very high CRP >10 and high D-dimer but they failed to connect the dots.  

    Anyway after IV abs, heparin then later coumadin (I declined surgery
    ) My CRP went down to near normal levels.   My clots were thought to be from chronic infection and resulting inflammation.

    I don't take natto (yet) but there seems to be quite a bit of anecdotal and some scientific evidence (Airline study)

    The problem I see is
    1. How does it interact with ASA?
    2. How does it interact with warfarin?
    3. How much is enough?
    4. How often?

    I agree with the good Dr. Davis on most of the points.  But its very difficult to call anything "Snake Oil" without knowing the true mechanism of action.  

    There are many medications that have been studied and are currently being prescribed in which the mechanism of actions is "unknown".  The studies show that it had a repeatable effect and that it improved the condition being tested for but the "how it works" is not known.  These are not snake oil because we do not know how it works.  Its because they have been found to show a positive response above what is found with placebo.


    There is enough anecdotal evidence on Natto for scientific studies to be done.  This is how many drugs are finally tested.  Where do you think we got antibiotics?  People have been taking natural things way before we had science.  Many of these have been tested.

    Natto is one that has not been.

    I would love to see some real studies on it.  

    A more interesting question is not if it is or not is snake oil but why has this not been studied?

    The assumption of its destruction in the stomach implies that one knows its mechanism.  After studies are done we will know.  It may be it works but in a totally different way than DR. Davis envisioned.  

    So I am not sure why he is so quick to label it as a scam when he simply does not have enough information to say one way or another.

    It may be true that the drug companies can't make a profit on it but why can't some of these well to do Vitamin companies fund the research?  The money has to come from somewhere.  I don't expect big pharm to foot the bill but someone should.

    From what evidence is available it all points to something more than a placebo effect.  Animal studies and one human study point to something real happening.
    I have yet to read any studies stating that there is no effect.

    Without seeing studies to the contrary I think Dr. Davis is just using his intuition.  Not saying his educated guess is wrong just saying its just a guess with some holes in it.

  • Anonymous

    1/31/2010 3:59:26 AM |

    I've had many a spirited discussion with MDs and PhDs about whether enzymes taken orally can go systemic.  All I can say is that there are a lot of MDs and PhDs who believe that enzymes cannot and do not go systemic.  HOWEVER, there are other MDs and PhDs who vehemently disagree and there are studies from reputable investigators that support the belief that enzymes can enter the blood stream intact or at least in some fashion where they can can be proteolytic or fibrolytic.  

    So, it's easy to stop all argument about the efficacy of an enzyme like nattokinase if you believe it can't work because it can't get into the blood.  I mean, honestly, there is nothing left to discuss, right?  And that seems to be Dr. Davis's basic position and Dr. Davis is clearly with the majority of doctors who hold this position.  

    However, if you accept the possibility that some enzymes CAN enter the blood stream, then you must then discuss what they might accomplish, for good or for bad, while in the blood.  And that leads to a discussion of WHICH enzymes might work best, and WHAT they might accomplish, and WHAT dosages work . . . a whole host of follow on questions that, presently, have few answers.

    That leaves all of us who'd like to know real answers sort of in the dark.  We are left with anecdotal testimonials, some who had good experiences and some who had adverse reactions.  That still doesn't give intellectual warm fuzzies.  However, if does suggest that if something MIGHT work and has few contraindications, that one might want to give it a try.

    As Dr. Davis clearly knows, logic is not controlling in science.  Science is complete with theories that are logically sound and later completely discredited as simply wrong despite the logic.  

    Logically, one has to allow that enzymes may be able to enter the blood system and may have curative effects -- until the theory is totally discredited -- even if you don't really know how it works.

  • stevensgarethb

    2/8/2010 11:57:22 PM |

    300 years ago if you were ill you would go to the local barbers where they would take some blood with an unclean instrument and infect you with a nasty disease. They would then send you home with some medication which did not work and was highly dangerous causing other medical conditions to arise. It is different today. Now the only thing that has changed is that you go to a nice new hospital to get infected and given medication that is dangerous and does not work and causes other medical conditionsSmile

    I am taking Neprinol which contains Nattokinase and Serrapeptase and it worked within several hours taken orally. I  use Neprinol as a replacement for Fragmin which I had already been taking for 6 months.  The alternative would have been Coumadin (Warfarin). It is all very well knocking Nattokinase but what alternative is there?
    I tried to stop taking fragmin but within half a day my symptoms came back.  Since taking Neprinol my symptoms have not returned and I am  experiencing no side effects apart from increased energy. I am cycling uphill 8 gears higher than before and not getting tired. Previously I had been admitted to hospital 5 times with chest pain, the first time I had an MI and the other times were at a different hospital who did not have a clue.  I did not appreciate being given a drug which made my condition worse.  I am from a highly technical background and could tell that the cardiac department had no expertise in understanding how the body works. It is obvious to me that medical staff are "non technical" so they can never work out what is wrong with someone.
    I decided to self diagnose and self prescribe and that was the best decision I ever made. I understand my condition now and how to treat it which is great.  I have also discovered a rare genetic link in my family and hope to connect with a University who are researching this subject.  I hope to start golf again when the weather improves and cycle along some mountain routes to improve my fitness.


    If doctors were paid by results... we would save an awful lot of money!

  • Anonymous

    2/18/2010 10:40:33 PM |

    I had a documented >2 foot long blood clot.  There is no denying the existence of this clot.  (THERE IS ALSO NO DENYING THE RESOLUTION OF THIS CLOT BY CURRENT ULTRASOUND!)  I went on one week of Lovenox and had serial ultrasounds on my left leg for  months.  The clot remained.  I started Nattokinase 15,000 FUs per capsule (4x/day).  Eighteen months later when another ultrasound was done, I was called back to the facility because they thought they had done the wrong leg or the test was done incorrectly by the tech.  Why?  BECAUSE THERE WAS NO CLOT FOUND.  The radiologist repeatedly stated I had to be incorrect in what I was taking, that it had to be Coumadin [note:  Coumadin prevents additional clots--it does not lyse clots].  HE WAS INCORRECT.  I definitely know what I take--it was, is and continues to be Nattokinase.  Nattokinase got rid of my clot, plain and simple.  If conventional providers do not want to believe it, I don't care.  If it can work for a >2 foot long clot, it likely works for other clots.  That said, I am a healthcare professional and fact is conventional medicine cares about nothing other than money.  Healthcare is "sick" care because that's where the money is made.  An epidemic of good health is the last thing Big Pharma wants!  If something can be effective without requiring frequent labs and doctor visits, obviously it would cut into the "take" on the part of MDs and other providers.  The system itself is sick!  Just as we laughed at those "funny-looking" Japanese cars in the 1970s and 1980s, it was those "funny" cars that gained the majority market share.  The Japanese healthcare system is much more efficient than the U.S. system.  Since it is care-driven versus our money-driven system, I believe it has more credibility.  I believe Dr. Sumi's research and will not have confidence in our system until such time research is objective and not controlled by big pharma.

  • Anonymous

    2/21/2010 3:02:13 AM |

    I just read this from Tom's post and found he countradicts himself:
    Tom said:
    It is possible that these enzyme products might produce a beneficial effect through that or other unknown mechanisms, but the makers of these products do not make that claim, perhaps due to its complexity. Rather, they invariably make simple, easily marketed claims.

    One should always be wary of any product, natural or otherwise that makes broad unsupported claims as to how and what it does." end quote

    Does this apply to Avandia too?

    I stated taking NK a month ago because I was having heart pain, nothing terribly serious as doctors never find any problems with my heart. After a few weeks I have not had any heart pains, and feel better, sleep better, etc.  I attribute it to the NK, and will continue to take it. My dad had heart problems so I am aware that I must prevent the same.  Taking anything else would be contrary to what works.  It is clear that Dr. Davis doesn't have a cure for heart disease and therefore can make no claims that NK does not work.  You can't have it both ways chum.
    The scam is the drug cartels, not natural products that work.

  • Dottie

    2/23/2010 10:46:17 PM |

    I haven't seen anything about Nattokinase being used to dissolve scar tissue in the stomach, for which I was referred.  Anyone heard of this?

  • Anonymous

    3/1/2010 12:39:41 AM |

    Please, people, stop falling into the trap of thinking that every study abstracted in PubMed is of good quality, let alone "proof."  I have to constantly caution myself against this, especially when all I am looking at is an abstract (and I would venture to say that less than 1% of the abstract readers bother to obtain the full article, and even if they do they probably don't rally understand much of what they are reading).

    And remember that the "pro supplement" research is just as prone to bias (often economically-motivated) as the pharma studies, and MORE prone to low quality.  Big Pharma and the Supplement industry BOTH have the almighty dollar as their primary motivator, and your health as -- perhaps -- a secondary motivator.  Neither should be demonized any more than the other.

    I use multiple supplements, including some herbs, and multiple drugs.  And I know there are potential risks and benefits (including unknown properties and unknown interactions) with both.  I also knwo that just because something "works" for me and *seems* safe, that it won't necessarily work for everyone, and isn't necessarily safe for everyone.  And that long-term hidden unknown detriments or benefits (again, for both supplements and drugs) may lurk.

    I know this has been rambling, but the main takeaways are:
    (1) Drug vs. "natural" partisans, please wise up
    (2) Don't assume everything you read is accurate (even the relatively unbiased stuff) just because "there are some studies,"  and
    (3) For very serious consitions such as cardiovascular disease, cerebrovascular disease, and cancer, realize that you NEED a doctor.  That doesn't mean you can't shop around for a better one, or that you can't question everything they say.

    Let me finish by saying that I found a "5 star" customer review of nattokinase on a well-known supplement site chilling.  It was to the effect of, "My Dad died of an aneuryism and no one can explain why, so I'm taking nattokinase to make sure the same thing doesn't happen to me!  It's great!"  That's SCARY!!

    (sorry, no time to check for typos right now... -- gotta run)

  • Anonymous

    3/22/2010 9:10:18 PM |

    Dr. Davis. You say Nattokinase supplementation is a scam? Someone with your professional credentials ought to be a little more informed on the subject as well as sensitive to the needs of others.

    Capsules, pills and tablets can't be made to protect their contents in the stomach? Have you ever herd of enteric coated, time release, or sustained release meds and supplements?

    You've personally witnessed bleed out and death that you attribute to use of nattokinase and other such enzymes. Is this due to product abuse by users? Was it because of a combination of other medical factors resulting in complications? Where is the documentation of your findings? Where is the open mindedness and balance in your personal and professional position? I see scare tactics and ignorance in a condecending spirit.

    I have had 5 DVT's and 3 PE's in recent years with no diagnosis for the cause. I have been seen by dozens of doctors, had 4 trips to the emergency room, and racked up enough medical bills to put me in bankruptcy. I've been on a steady diet of low dose rat poisin (warfarin) and am reminded to flex my calves when standing or sitting. Yes, I just have to live with it, I'm told.

    What ar you going to do for me? You all had your shot. I'm saying to you - Don't be afraid to learn something new or investgate the untraditional. Do your homework first. Then maybe there will be more to your position on this subject than emotional reasoning and unsubstantiated events.

    To all those out there exploring the new wave of enzyme therapies, I say carry on. It is an amazing science and a very viable alternative.

  • Anonymous

    3/26/2010 5:28:54 PM |

    Dr. Davis, I am seriously disappointed in your comments that nattokinase is a scam.  You seem to be very misinformed or have not done your research.

    Any scam you mention does not have to do with Nattokinase itself but the way supplement companies are marketing NK as well as how they are packaging and encapsulating NK with other ingredients to make it seem like a multivitamin.  The supplement versions of NK are diluted considerably by supplement companies. I know this first hand as I have personally seen and taken probably the most purest and concentrated form of NK available.

    "Clot develops when heart attack occurs. It makes no sense to take a lytic agent that dissolves clotes continuously. Unless I am missing something here, nattokinase remains squarely in the nonsense column."

    You are definitely misinformed.  It's really sad that you feel this way seeing that many people will now be misinformed about the truth of NK and how it improves human health.  NK does not have to be taken as a hard capsule.  It does survive stomach acid. That being said, I can understand that you may not have access to all of the information or the pure form of Nattokinase as it is not readily available anywhere other than Japan and China.

    I would suggest that you refrain from calling NK a scam until you yourself have definitive proof.  Otherwise your opinion remains squarely in the nonsense-column.

  • Dr. Dawn

    3/29/2010 1:35:15 PM |

    Dr. Davis,
    This reminds me of the initial skepticism about fish oil--you reference it as if it was always accepted and promoted in the medical community. Now there is Lovasa-- $200/mo. vs. $20/mo. for fish oil. (I actually recommend Krill oil.)
    Enzymes, when used against inflammation instead of digestive purposes, are taken on an empty stomach and are  absorbed into the blood stream. The thrombolytic effect is not sudden and works peripheral to central on the clot, posing no risk of embolism. I introduced fish oil to the cardiology department at  University Hospital (Michigan) in 1993 following a patient's M.I.-- at that time they hadn't heard of using omega 3s, but at least they were open to functional foods, eventually making fish oil part of their cardiac protocol. The early days of introducing most functional foods to the medical community is like turning around a locomotive-- until the pharmaceutical companies find a way to patent them-- we can thank them for the high cost of "sickness mgt" instead of health care. Coumadin counters K2, so while people have been guided to prevent clots (it does not break down clots, only prevents new ones and enlargement of those  established), they've also been engineering hypertension and atherosclerosis in their bodies--not to mention the organ repercussions of Coumadin. Humility in the medical community with respect to historical wisdom would be a refreshing change-- and might have gone a long way to prevent the gradual replacement of health care with our costly system of "sickness management", as well as the recent push for a governmental takeover plan. Research continues: Nutrition Research. Volume 29, Issue 3, March 2009, Pages 190-196. The older article by Milner explains the clotting mechanism for laymen. Research shows that Nattokinase can suppress thickening of the intima following damage to the inside of a blood vessel. Nutrition. 2003 Mar;19(3):261-4
    Remember, many doctors have created many health problems over the years   because they made assumptions..... After all, K2 is in egg yolks and helps calcium reach the bones instead of depositing in arteries-- yet for years doctors advised patients to avoid eggs if they had cardiovascular disease-- more mythology debunked. Those same eggs provide choline, key to brain, liver, and who-knows-what-else. Tanning (sun or bed) has been decried, yet Hollick showed women who tan regularly have 25% higher bone density--and not the inferior bone resulting from so-called osteoporosis drugs-- check out the NY Times article from March 25th.   Vitamin D3 deficiency, due to seriously flawed advice, has contributed to untold diseases-- diabetes, MS, cardiovascular disease,  breast, prostate, and colon cancer--to name just a few. Let's remain humble about non-drug methods and not attribute  characteristics and side effects of synthetic pharmaceutical drugs to functional foods. We are still identifying the beneficial synergistic relationships within these foods that do not exist in synthetic, isolated chemical constituents of drugs.

  • Inquisitive

    4/7/2010 5:00:46 PM |

    I am a 49 year old white male with a high stress life.  I am overweight, have sleep apnea, an asymptomatic irregular heartbeat, bouts with depression and anxiety (for which I was prescribed Prozac), supposedly "pre-diabetic" and I have, what a shock, high blood pressure.  I am interested in the potential benefits of Nattokinase as a possible enhancement to or replacement for the precription meds I am taking for hypertension.  I have recently started taking some other supplements such as Vitamins D3, K2, Fish Oil, Resveratrol, CoQ10 etc.  Does anyone out there with an open mind and the intellect to back it up have any personal experience, reccomendations or advice for me?  Please respond if so!  Thank you!  I am intelligent and I spend lots of time reading and researching from various sources on the internet and frankly, I just don't know who to believe anymore.  I just want to be healthier!

  • Anonymous

    4/9/2010 6:15:01 AM |

    I just want to chime in here - I have been on nattokinase for the last 8 years.
    Before that, I was on Coumadin for over two years for a clot that went all the way from my calf to my belly button. I have Factor V Leiden, a genetic clotting condition.
    While on Coumadin, I had numerous side effects, including Post Phlebitic Syndrome (PPS).
    Since starting on nattokinase, I have not been bothered with ANY of the side effects I had with Coumadin. No more Ultram for PPS, no more worrying about (not) eating my greens, no more INRs - NOTHING! My blood pressure is a healthy 115/75 (I am around 60y/o).

    I swear by Nattokinase, but I also know that there are many 'fakes' out there that claim to be nattokinase, but in reality have no active ingredients. Buyer beware!
    Check out reputable brands like Allergy Research, or Pure Prescriptions, or check out Dr. Holsworth, the researcher of nattokinase. Contact him for other reputable brands.

  • madanthony

    4/10/2010 7:04:09 PM |

    There ARE studies showing oral nattokinase IS fibrinolytic (so obviously was absorbed despite stomach acid!).  Here's one.  (I am limitted by your size restrictions)

    Sumi, H. et al. "Enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in plasma by oral administration of nattokinase." Acta haematol 1990, 84: 139-43.
    Abstract
    The existence of a potent fibrinolytic enzyme (nattokinase, NK) in the traditional fermented food called 'natto', was reported by us previously. It was confirmed that oral administration of NK (or natto) produced a mild and frequent enhancement of the fibrinolytic activity in the plasma, as indicated by the fibrinolytic parameters, and the production of tissue plasminogen activator. NK capsules were also administered orally to dogs with experimentally induced thrombosis, and lysis of the thrombi was observed by angiography. The results obtained suggest that NK represents a possible drug for use not only in the treatment of embolism but also in the prevention of the disease, since NK has a proven safety and can be massproduced.

  • Ara

    4/13/2010 6:37:58 PM |

    So if nattokinnasse works for you. You are dismissed as a crazy -fanatic- person. So here I'm another "fanatic" person that has been taking fibrovan for over a year. My horrendous pelvic (menstrual) pain has improved more than half.
    So I guess it is over 12 months of the placebo effect.
    I read somewhere: First they ignore you then the ridicule you and finally they join you!
    Thank you Dr for at least not deleting the "freaks" posts.
    Anna

  • Anonymous

    4/25/2010 2:14:52 PM |

    I am 54 years old and have suffered from multiple fibroids and dangerous haeavy non-stop bleeding with clots in excess of 1 oz each. I started bleeding last July and by November 15 was close to hemmoraging. I was dangerously anemic for months. They wanted to give me a transfusion in the ER but I refused. I ended up with 10 days of fibrovera which did little except the clots decreased in size. My obgyn wanted to do a hysterectomy but I said no. He gave me 14 days more of fibrovera. Still bleeding I went online and ordered Fibrovan. I had previously taken a fibrinolytic mix with a lot of improvement but had stopped due to feeling better and the cost. After a week on Fibrovan I stopped bleeding for 4 months. I am now having  light manageable flow and will continue the Fibrovan. I would not be able to function otherwise. There are many more testimnials of the help it has been to other women who did not want to be cut on.
    Gail age 54 Texas

  • Tom

    4/25/2010 7:32:17 PM |

    That is ridiculous. Fibroids have nothing to do with fibrin, the words just sound similar. Nor would a purported fibrinolytic help to reduce uterine bleeding. In fact, if it did have fibrinolytic properties, it would increase bleeding.

    The makers of fibrovan and fibrovera (which are both practically identical) both make the absurd claim that nattokinase reduces fibroid size. Fibroids are a benign tumor and are effected by hormone levels. It is absurd to add the unsupported claim that nattokinase is able to shrink tumors and reduce bleeding because this would contradict the other unsupported claims made by pronattokinase commenters.


    It is shameful that supplement manufactures will create entire product lines simply because fibroid sounds like fibrin. I suggest we name this new fake medicine Homonymopathy.

  • Anonymous

    5/17/2010 2:56:11 AM |

    Nattokinase worked for me and I am living proof via ultrasounds.  Wake up folks!  If conventional medicine is so blasted great, then why are there currently mass tort actions regarding Avandia, Bextra, Vioxx, pain pumps used after shoulder surgery, Fleet's Phosphosoda used as a prep before colonoscopies that has put a number of people across our nation in renal failure requiring dialysis and transplants, nephrogenic fibrosing dermopathy as a result of gadolinium used for MRIs, etc., etc., etc.  I could go on and list at least 50 actions rights now for products made by Big Pharma and pushed by those who call themselve doctors (aka glorified drug pushers).  Our system is so broken, I wouldn't trust it to take care of a fruitfly!

  • Tom

    5/18/2010 9:39:02 AM |

    Supplements are just big pharm unregulated. That really turned out well for Europe and thalidomide.

    Also, natural does not equal non toxic. I'm acquainted with a patient who absolutely destroyed his liver on vitamin A and E to the point where he required a transplant.

  • ron

    5/18/2010 12:51:42 PM |

    I had bypass surgery 3 years ago after a heart attack. Five bypass grafts were performed. A year ago, I had another heart attack, the cause as indicated on the angiogram was that my body rejected the sutures used. Two of the bypass grafts fell off, and the others are full of crap at the suture that my body has deposited to counter what it feels is a foreign object. The point of this is that if a bypass is necessary, make sure the sutures used are compatible to your body and will not be rejected. there are several suture materials available from silk to propylene and many others. Question if they will work for you.
    All the best
    RB

  • Dave

    5/21/2010 2:51:10 AM |

    Dr. Davis and Tom,

    Fact: Clinical trials support the fact that oral NK mildly, but significantly, increases fibrnolytic activity in humans. I've personally witnessed this with myself.

    Fact: Clinical trials support the fact that NK lowers BP. I've personally witnessed this myself.

    Fact: Nattokinase lowers CRP levels. I've personally witnessed this myself.

    I realize that if any protease enzyme were directly injected into our blood stream, it would turn our veins and arteries into mush. Obviously, very little oral NK is absorbed, but enough to have an affect.

  • Anonymous

    6/1/2010 6:50:30 PM |

    Does anyone know if NK can be helpful in case of Protein C deficiency?
    I have 2 sons who have been diagnosed with 0.62 ratio of Protein C deficiency (genetically predisposed). It should read 0.70 to be normal range.

    In their case, they have to take Coumadin 10mg for life. Trying to avoid by all means.

    Please help.

  • Anonymous

    6/5/2010 11:38:56 AM |

    While barefoot on a ladder I slipped and fell to the next metal step. By the next day the entire arch of my foot was a deep purple with bruise. As witnessed in the office I showed my bruise, ate 100gm of fermented natto food and we watched as the next two days the bruise had cleared entirely. The only remnant was a small wound under the skin that was the source of the bruise/bleeding. It healed in what I would consider a normal period of time.

    Think of all the people on coumadin that would not be walking around with bruised arms or legs...etc

    Someone please explain if a bruise is a form of clotting or not.

    Perhaps in this economy of forced health care the government could spend some of that money on non pharmaceutical research as it might apply to the health of its citizens from eating food.

    I make my own natto, have been eating it weekly for the last 7 years. Soy sauce makes it better so does yogurt...I now am accustomed to eating it by itself. Thank you mother nature.

    A 52 year old believer.

  • Anonymous

    6/5/2010 11:57:24 AM |

    Same 52 year old believer from recent post.

    My wife was hit by an automobile while on her bicycle very recently. The ER sent her home with clean X-Rays for broken bones but advise on future possibility of finding damaged ligaments and or tendons in her leg where the bike frame contacted her.

    The folks at the ER said that day two would have more pain but day three would be the worse. They also advised that she should expect bruising on here entire leg area along with other areas that she was not aware of yet. (she used her arms when falling to protect her head)

    Within a few hours the large area of a bruise was showing. Again, roughly 100g of natto-the food, and the bruising has cleared the same evening. We are on day 4 and still no bruises. We can see an area under the skin where the tissue has been injured, perhaps a tear.....we are not medically trained. Her healing is progressing ahead of schedule as day two and three where better than day one.
    She was struck hard enough for the SUV to have a flat tire from the bicycle.
    I share these experiences to help show that...yes, there is an active ingredient in the natto and yes it gets past the stomach and does have an effect, if only in clearing a bruised area of the body.
    When I have a paper cut or small skin cut the blood is bright red, like I remember when I was very young. The blood also seems to be thinner but will coagulate easily when I apply pressure...as I always have done pre-natto. This from an ongoing, once a week usage.

  • Anonymous

    7/15/2010 4:36:01 PM |

    If what you say is true about stomache acid, then Plavix does not work either, nor does Asprin.

  • Anonymous

    7/17/2010 6:29:52 AM |

    1. If nattokinase worked as argued, then it should increase bruising, not decrease it.

    2. Plavix and asprin are both not enzymes.

  • Anonymous

    7/28/2010 5:09:52 AM |

    from pubmed.gov

    "Effects of nattokinase on blood pressure: a randomized, controlled trial.

    Kim JY, Gum SN, Paik JK, Lim HH, Kim KC, Ogasawara K, Inoue K, Park S, Jang Y, Lee JH.

    Yonsei University Research Institute of Science for Aging, Department of Food and Nutrition, College of Human Ecology, Yonsei University, and Department of Family Medicine, Mizmedi Hospital, Seoul, Korea.
    Abstract

    The objective of this study was to examine the effects of nattokinase supplementation on blood pressure in subjects with pre-hypertension or stage 1 hypertension. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial, 86 participants ranging from 20 to 80 years of age with an initial untreated systolic blood pressure (SBP) of 130 to 159 mmHg received nattokinase (2,000 FU/capsule) or a placebo capsule for 8 weeks. Seventy-three subjects completed the protocol. Compared with the control group, the net changes in SBP and diastolic blood pressure (DBP) were -5.55 mmHg (95% confidence interval [CI], -10.5 to -0.57 mmHg; p<0.05) and -2.84 mmHg (CI, -5.33 to -0.33 mmHg; p<0.05), respectively, after the 8-week intervention. The corresponding net change in renin activity was -1.17 ng/mL/h for the nattokinase group compared with the control group (p<0.05). In conclusion, nattokinase supplementation resulted in a reduction in SBP and DBP. These findings suggest that increased intake of nattokinase may play an important role in preventing and treating hypertension."

    PMID: 18971533 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]"

  • Robert

    8/5/2010 5:43:33 AM |

    Dr. David, check http://www.houston-enzymes.com/learn/articles/doctor-may-not-know.php which says that plant and microbe based enzymes do survive the stomach acid, it is  the animal based or pancreatic enzymes that do not. So please retract your statement on enzymes.

  • Robert

    8/5/2010 6:17:29 AM |

    The bruising anecdotes are interesting, hopefully some medical researchers will look into it. Natto the food supposedly contains vitamin K2 which helps with clotting and may help reduce additional bleeding.  It is not clear what the interplay is between Nattokinase and K2.

  • Knox

    8/7/2010 3:24:15 PM |

    Dr. Davis -
    I would be very interested in your thoughts on SOD and it's action on fibrosis.  Note the following study:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11134893

  • Anonymous

    8/8/2010 3:10:03 AM |

    I am thoroughly enjoying the debate on Nattokinase on this site, but one thing bothers me about Dr. Davis' claim that it is a scam.  Firstly, and foremost he claims that there is no way that it can survive the acidity of the stomach, even if it is enteric coated.  Secondly, he claims that it's anti-thrombolic properties are dangerous and can cause aneurysms in the brain.  I think he needs to pick a topic and stick with it.  If indeed, this product is a scam and does not survive the digestive process, then how can it be dangerous. Seems there needs to be more medically based research done on this enzyme before the word "scam" can be wholeheartedly used.

  • Anonymous

    8/10/2010 2:32:40 PM |

    I've been taking Nattokinase for 4 days now, I'm only 35 years old, but I can literally feel how it dramatically improves blood circulation in my body. The best way to prove or disprove something is to try. I have undiagnosed headaches which nobody can figure out for 13 years, I have chronic pain for 13 years daily non stop. My own theory (not supported by healthcare proffessionals) is that I had some kind on tiny aneurysm rupture or other kind of minor brain bleeding not big enough to show up in MRI but enough to somehow cause me this terrible chronic pain. It started as sudden worst headache you could possibly imagine, I almost lost consciousness. Something terrible must have happened. In any case if Nattokinase can help me it will be pretty major proof. It seems that it started to improve things already. The pain is not going away completely, but it started to disappear for like half a day ...

  • knox

    8/12/2010 4:27:33 PM |

    Anonymous from Aug 10 -

    I'm curious if you drink diet soft drinks or consume aspartame.  I used to have daily headaches and they stopped instantly when I stopped consuming aspartame.  It's a neurotoxin and it's deadly.

  • Anonymous

    8/30/2010 9:43:04 PM |

    I.m also interested into Nattokinase and fully agree with comment posted last August 10 by Anonimous:

    "... one thing bothers me about Dr. Davis' claim that [Nattokinase]is a scam. Firstly, and foremost he claims that there is no way that it can survive the acidity of the stomach, even if it is enteric coated. Secondly, he claims that it's anti-thrombolic properties are dangerous and can cause aneurysms in the brain. I think he needs to pick a topic and stick with it. If indeed, this product is a scam and does not survive the digestive process, then how can it be dangerous. Seems there needs to be more medically based research done on this enzyme before the word "scam" can be wholeheartedly used."

    Would like to know Dr.Davis answer

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:11:25 AM |

    Part 1
    For those who are searching for an answer to dissolving blood clots, I would love 2 share my success story.  In Oct 2009 I developed a freak blood clot after knee surgery.  I exercise almost every day and part of the regimen is cardio 5-7 days a week for 40 minutes @ a time. For a 40 year old male I was in peak condition.  My resting heart rate is excellent, blood pressure, cholesterol, weight, & BMI all perfect.  The week before my surgery I developed the H1N1 flu which put me in bed for a week and they had to push my knee surgery back.  So I went from super active to lying in bed for a week then having surgery and lying in bed again 2 recover.  Doctors tested for all diseases and genetic causes of blood clots and I had none of them.  They finally came to a conclusion that going from extreme activity to nothing could have been the only cause.  If I knew then what I know now I would have moved around more etc. but I had no clue?  I actually self diagnosed my own blood clot using web md and called my doctor.  He didn’t believe me so he said take an aspirin and come see him in the morning (3-4 days after surgery)  They put a Doppler on my leg found the blood clots & immediately rushed me to surgery to have a filter placed in my groin 2 prevent the clot from traveling 2 my heart.  They started giving me Heparin and then warfarin (coumidan) when I left the hospital.  They kept increasing my dose of warfarin since they could not get my PT level above 2 (they wanted it between 2-3) my level was 1.5-1.8.  I started getting terrible headaches, pain behind my eyes and after 6 weeks of this I developed horrible heartburn (I never was sensitive to ANY spicy food for my whole life) they wanted me to take 12mg of warfarin “rat poison” a day and I had enough.  None of my doctors wanted to discuss garlic, fish oil, or any of the other natural blood thinning methods.  They just wanted to give me one drug to cover the side effects of the other.  Since I normally eat mostly organic foods and am ultra healthy I had enough and decided to do my own research.  I read that Nattokinase would not only thin my blood, but unlike the “rat poison” it would actually dissolve the clot.  My doctor had told me that I would always have scars from blood clots and thus would need to take a baby aspirin for the rest of my life and go on warfarin whenever I had surgery in the future, because the “rat poison” only prevented future clots, but would not dissolve the clot.  So I found the best pharmaceutical grade Natto made by Allergy Research Group (I believe it is made in Japan) but was able to find in on Amazon.  I started taking 100mg a day and reduced my warfarin to 5mg & added 1 eight hour time released garlic pill.  Since my doctor could not measure my blood level (his devise only measured the amount of warfarin in my blood) I had to do this on my own and lied to my doctor about how much warfarin I was taking.  I had to judge my blood thickness by bruising and blood flow when pricked ( I know this sounds crazy but where I live I could not find a doctor that was willing to help me)  I knew that I had the filter in my leg as a back up, so that took some of the danger out of the equation.  After about a month of this I went to 200mg of Natto (one pill every 12 hours) and three eight hour time released garlic pills and stopped taking warfarin all together.  I did this for another 3 months.  PLEASE NOTE I UNDERSTAND WHAT I DID WAS DANGEROUS, SO I HOPE YOU CAN FIND A DOCTOR TO HELP WITH THIS PROCESS.
    to be continued...

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:12:50 AM |

    Part 1
    For those who are searching for an answer to dissolving blood clots, I would love 2 share my success story.  In Oct 2009 I developed a freak blood clot after knee surgery.  I exercise almost every day and part of the regimen is cardio 5-7 days a week for 40 minutes @ a time. For a 40 year old male I was in peak condition.  My resting heart rate is excellent, blood pressure, cholesterol, weight, & BMI all perfect.  The week before my surgery I developed the H1N1 flu which put me in bed for a week and they had to push my knee surgery back.  So I went from super active to lying in bed for a week then having surgery and lying in bed again 2 recover.  Doctors tested for all diseases and genetic causes of blood clots and I had none of them.  They finally came to a conclusion that going from extreme activity to nothing could have been the only cause.  If I knew then what I know now I would have moved around more etc. but I had no clue?  I actually self diagnosed my own blood clot using web md and called my doctor.  He didn’t believe me so he said take an aspirin and come see him in the morning (3-4 days after surgery)  They put a Doppler on my leg found the blood clots & immediately rushed me to surgery to have a filter placed in my groin 2 prevent the clot from traveling 2 my heart.  They started giving me Heparin and then warfarin (coumidan) when I left the hospital.  They kept increasing my dose of warfarin since they could not get my PT level above 2 (they wanted it between 2-3) my level was 1.5-1.8.  I started getting terrible headaches, pain behind my eyes and after 6 weeks of this I developed horrible heartburn (I never was sensitive to ANY spicy food for my whole life) they wanted me to take 12mg of warfarin “rat poison” a day and I had enough.  None of my doctors wanted to discuss garlic, fish oil, or any of the other natural blood thinning methods.  They just wanted to give me one drug to cover the side effects of the other.  Since I normally eat mostly organic foods and am ultra healthy I had enough and decided to do my own research.  I read that Nattokinase would not only thin my blood, but unlike the “rat poison” it would actually dissolve the clot.  My doctor had told me that I would always have scars from blood clots and thus would need to take a baby aspirin for the rest of my life and go on warfarin whenever I had surgery in the future, because the “rat poison” only prevented future clots, but would not dissolve the clot.  So I found the best pharmaceutical grade Natto made by Allergy Research Group (I believe it is made in Japan) but was able to find in on Amazon.  I started taking 100mg a day and reduced my warfarin to 5mg & added 1 eight hour time released garlic pill.  Since my doctor could not measure my blood level (his devise only measured the amount of warfarin in my blood) I had to do this on my own and lied to my doctor about how much warfarin I was taking.  I had to judge my blood thickness by bruising and blood flow when pricked ( I know this sounds crazy but where I live I could not find a doctor that was willing to help me)  I knew that I had the filter in my leg as a back up, so that took some of the danger out of the equation.  After about a month of this I went to 200mg of Natto (one pill every 12 hours) and three eight hour time released garlic pills and stopped taking warfarin all together.  I did this for another 3 months.  PLEASE NOTE I UNDERSTAND WHAT I DID WAS DANGEROUS, SO I HOPE YOU CAN FIND A DOCTOR TO HELP WITH THIS PROCESS.
    to be continued...

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:14:57 AM |

    Part 1
    For those who are searching for an answer to dissolving blood clots, I would love 2 share my success story.  In Oct 2009 I developed a freak blood clot after knee surgery.  I exercise almost every day and part of the regimen is cardio 5-7 days a week for 40 minutes @ a time. For a 40 year old male I was in peak condition.  My resting heart rate is excellent, blood pressure, cholesterol, weight, & BMI all perfect.  The week before my surgery I developed the H1N1 flu which put me in bed for a week and they had to push my knee surgery back.  So I went from super active to lying in bed for a week then having surgery and lying in bed again 2 recover.  Doctors tested for all diseases and genetic causes of blood clots and I had none of them.  They finally came to a conclusion that going from extreme activity to nothing could have been the only cause.  If I knew then what I know now I would have moved around more etc. but I had no clue?  I actually self diagnosed my own blood clot using web md and called my doctor.  He didn’t believe me so he said take an aspirin and come see him in the morning (3-4 days after surgery)  They put a Doppler on my leg found the blood clots & immediately rushed me to surgery to have a filter placed in my groin 2 prevent the clot from traveling 2 my heart.  They started giving me Heparin and then warfarin (coumidan) when I left the hospital.  They kept increasing my dose of warfarin since they could not get my PT level above 2 (they wanted it between 2-3) my level was 1.5-1.8.  I started getting terrible headaches, pain behind my eyes and after 6 weeks of this I developed horrible heartburn (I never was sensitive to ANY spicy food for my whole life) they wanted me to take 12mg of warfarin “rat poison” a day and I had enough.  None of my doctors wanted to discuss garlic, fish oil, or any of the other natural blood thinning methods.  They just wanted to give me one drug to cover the side effects of the other.  Since I normally eat mostly organic foods and am ultra healthy I had enough and decided to do my own research.  I read that Nattokinase would not only thin my blood, but unlike the “rat poison” it would actually dissolve the clot.  My doctor had told me that I would always have scars from blood clots and thus would need to take a baby aspirin for the rest of my life and go on warfarin whenever I had surgery in the future, because the “rat poison” only prevented future clots, but would not dissolve the clot.  So I found the best pharmaceutical grade Natto made by Allergy Research Group (I believe it is made in Japan) but was able to find in on Amazon.  I started taking 100mg a day and reduced my warfarin to 5mg & added 1 eight hour time released garlic pill.  Since my doctor could not measure my blood level (his devise only measured the amount of warfarin in my blood) I had to do this on my own and lied to my doctor about how much warfarin I was taking.  to be continued...

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:16:39 AM |

    Part 1
    For those who are searching for an answer to dissolving blood clots, I would love 2 share my success story.  In Oct 2009 I developed a freak blood clot after knee surgery.  I exercise almost every day and part of the regimen is cardio 5-7 days a week for 40 minutes @ a time. For a 40 year old male I was in peak condition.  My resting heart rate is excellent, blood pressure, cholesterol, weight, & BMI all perfect.  The week before my surgery I developed the H1N1 flu which put me in bed for a week and they had to push my knee surgery back.  So I went from super active to lying in bed for a week then having surgery and lying in bed again 2 recover.  Doctors tested for all diseases and genetic causes of blood clots and I had none of them.  They finally came to a conclusion that going from extreme activity to nothing could have been the only cause.  If I knew then what I know now I would have moved around more etc. but I had no clue?  I actually self diagnosed my own blood clot using web md and called my doctor.  He didn’t believe me so he said take an aspirin and come see him in the morning (3-4 days after surgery)  They put a Doppler on my leg found the blood clots & immediately rushed me to surgery to have a filter placed in my groin 2 prevent the clot from traveling 2 my heart.  They started giving me Heparin and then warfarin (coumidan) when I left the hospital.  They kept increasing my dose of warfarin since they could not get my PT level above 2 (they wanted it between 2-3) my level was 1.5-1.8.  I started getting terrible headaches, pain behind my eyes and after 6 weeks of this I developed horrible heartburn (I never was sensitive to ANY spicy food for my whole life) they wanted me to take 12mg of warfarin “rat poison” a day and I had enough.  None of my doctors wanted to discuss garlic, fish oil, or any of the other natural blood thinning methods.  They just wanted to give me one drug to cover the side effects of the other.  Since I normally eat mostly organic foods and am ultra healthy I had enough and decided to do my own research.  I read that Nattokinase would not only thin my blood, but unlike the “rat poison” it would actually dissolve the clot.  My doctor had told me that I would always have scars from blood clots and thus would need to take a baby aspirin for the rest of my life and go on warfarin whenever I had surgery in the future, because the “rat poison” only prevented future clots, but would not dissolve the clot.  So I found the best pharmaceutical grade Natto made by Allergy Research Group (I believe it is made in Japan) but was able to find in on Amazon.
    to be continued...

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:18:58 AM |

    Part 1
    For those who are searching for an answer to dissolving blood clots, I would love 2 share my success story.  In Oct 2009 I developed a freak blood clot after knee surgery.  I exercise almost every day and part of the regimen is cardio 5-7 days a week for 40 minutes @ a time. For a 40 year old male I was in peak condition.  My resting heart rate is excellent, blood pressure, cholesterol, weight, & BMI all perfect.  The week before my surgery I developed the H1N1 flu which put me in bed for a week and they had to push my knee surgery back.  So I went from super active to lying in bed for a week then having surgery and lying in bed again 2 recover.  Doctors tested for all diseases and genetic causes of blood clots and I had none of them.  They finally came to a conclusion that going from extreme activity to nothing could have been the only cause.  If I knew then what I know now I would have moved around more etc. but I had no clue?  I actually self diagnosed my own blood clot using web md and called my doctor.  He didn’t believe me so he said take an aspirin and come see him in the morning (3-4 days after surgery)  They put a Doppler on my leg found the blood clots & immediately rushed me to surgery to have a filter placed in my groin 2 prevent the clot from traveling 2 my heart.  They started giving me Heparin and then warfarin (coumidan) when I left the hospital.  They kept increasing my dose of warfarin since they could not get my PT level above 2 (they wanted it between 2-3) my level was 1.5-1.8.  I started getting terrible headaches, pain behind my eyes and after 6 weeks of this I developed horrible heartburn (I never was sensitive to ANY spicy food for my whole life) they wanted me to take 12mg of warfarin “rat poison” a day and I had enough.  None of my doctors wanted to discuss garlic, fish oil, or any of the other natural blood thinning methods.  They just wanted to give me one drug to cover the side effects of the other.  Since I normally eat mostly organic foods and am ultra healthy I had enough and decided to do my own research.
    to be continued...

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:24:06 AM |

    PART 2 Sorry for multiple post the server was not working correctly...

    At the 6 month mark my doctor tested my blood clotting abilities and cleared me to stop taking Warfarin (not knowing I had been off it for a couple of months)  two weeks ago my doctor wanted me to get another Doppler on my leg to see how the blood clot scaring looked as I was going to have another surgery on the same knee (he wanted a before and after picture to see if any further clotting would cling to the scar tissue) The Doppler tech looked up and down my entire leg and could not find ANY evidence I ever had a blood clot.  Naturally I was vindicated and wanted to share my success story with my fellow bloggers that are tired of being pumped full of drugs so that big Pharma can make billions of dollars addicting us to pills.  I know traditional medicine needs to be used in some cases, but I am happy the blood thinning and clot removal can be done naturally.  Now I need to find a natural way to heal the heartburn that has been a part of my life, thanks to the “rat poison” my doctor forced down my throat.

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:25:51 AM |

    Part 3

    ... Sorry Dr. Davis, but I am LIVING PROOF that you are wrong.

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 1:52:07 AM |

    The weight of the anecdotal evidence favors natto and nattokinase.  How can Dr. Davis continue to deny it?  To the most recent courageous person who posted in 3 installments, more power to you.  you give us all courage.

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 1:55:45 AM |

    Part 2 (sorry for the multiple posts but the server was having problem.)

    At the 6 month mark my doctor tested my blood clotting abilities and cleared me to stop taking Warfarin (not knowing I had been off it for a couple of months)  two weeks ago my doctor wanted me to get another Doppler on my leg to see how the blood clot scaring looked as I was going to have another surgery on the same knee (he wanted a before and after picture to see if any further clotting would cling to the scar tissue) The Doppler tech looked up and down my entire leg and could not find ANY evidence I ever had a blood clot.  Naturally I was vindicated and wanted to share my success story with my fellow bloggers that are tired of being pumped full of drugs so that big Pharma can make billions of dollars addicting us to pills.  I know traditional medicine needs to be used in some cases, but I am happy the blood thinning and clot removal can be done naturally.  Now I need to find a natural way to heal the heartburn that has been a part of my life, thanks to the “rat poison” my doctor forced down my throat.
    2 b continued...closing statement

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 3:48:34 AM |

    Part 4 - I need to add something to my story.  When I used the word Natto in my story, I was referring to Nattokinase.  I should have used NK for a shorten version as Natto is obviously a different form. Sorry for that confusion and the fact that my posts came separately, but I wanted to explain my whole story to help others that are tired of watching our health and this world be destroyed by chemicals and greed.  

    I really think the United states will never have an honest government until they stop allowing Big Pharma, Oil companies, etc. to fund the campaigns of our politicians.  There should be no political parties only Americans that want to protect our health & environment.  Also the only religion that should be affiliated with government is the freedom to practice it.  Watching people treat others badly in the name of their God is probable what drives people to not believe in any God.  

    Peace to you all and good healthSmile

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 12:27:10 PM |

    Thanks, Anonymous, for the complete five-part story.  I agree with you on all points. I think we like-minded people need to band together to try to impact the upcoming election.  Any ideas?

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 3:03:58 PM |

    Thanks for taking interest in my Nattokinase story (i wish I could have used just one post, but it was too long)and it is great to hear others with  a similar mindset.  Unfortunately, I'm really not sure any vote will matter until we have political reform in this country.  It is laughable to think any politician in any party is going to vote for political reform, when you have separate parties that are both controlled by corporations (Big Pharma, Oil companies, Telecommunication,etc.) funding their campaigns.  The only answer I can see is that you have a number of candidates with NO party affiliation that are not allowed to advertise.  A government political site could have a web page for each qualified candidate (where they answer a uniform set of questions so citizens know the type of policies they support) & TV networks could be forced to donate one commercial for each candidate.  NO special interest, NO personal money could be used.  The small cost to set up a webpage would have to come out of our taxes so that it is kept none bias. I know my idea may sound strange, but without political reform our votes are really just a hope that the persons we put in office will not be influenced by the people funding the ridiculous spending they use to advertise themselves and that is not going to happen.

    Take careSmile

  • Anonymous

    9/1/2010 5:59:03 PM |

    I like the idea of a non-partisan, beyond-the-2-party-deadlock  website.  I see no movement toward a real solution to our problems.  On Diane Rehm's show this morning, I heard about something I knew had to exist -- the BigPharma campaign to take control of medical marijuana, including influencing legislation that is outlawing grow-your-own stuff. The per-capita prescription drug use in the US is 11+, while in the poorest states, it's as high as 17.  We are fat, unhealthy and uninformed, so much so that Fox leads viewership.  Amazing that my country could deteriorate so fast. Take a look at this story: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38727236/ns/health-forbescom

  • Anonymous

    9/2/2010 9:06:38 PM |

    One thing bothers me. FDA does not approve NK as a drug since it has not passed the required tests (clinical trials). On the other hand it is well known that going through the whole process of a certified clinical trial is lenghty and quite costly: only big farmaceutical industries could do it, as a long term investment. Since NK is a natural product, the returns out of such investment would represent for that company a net loss. So, there appear to be no solutions, other  than the organization of interested groups exchanging ideas and information in discussions, blogs [as the present one], ets., with moderators competent and sensible to the issues involved.  This in practice corresponds to a 'natural clinical trial' procedure. It may be objected that it might produce some increscious failures. But this is the case also among people accepting to take part in a certified trial. After all, what counts is the overall general outcome.

  • Anonymous

    9/4/2010 10:33:59 AM |

    Looks like Dr. Davis has been schooled here.  NK wins.

  • Anonymous

    9/22/2010 6:21:46 AM |

    Thanks for your 5 part story.  Hope you come back again to see this post.  It may sound counter-intuitive, but taking one tablespoon of Apple Cider Vinegar will get rid of your heartburn almost immediately.  People with heartburn actually need MORE acid in their stomachs.  Good luck.

  • Anonymous

    10/8/2010 1:40:01 PM |

    In the web several people claim urotherapy (drinking your own urine) is a panacea for a number of ailments (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_therapy ). Scientific literature does not back this claim but agrees that generally this practice is not harmful (97% of urine is water, it is sterile, and its components come out from a filtering process balancing our blood constituents). The low fraction of urea in it, which in large quantities is toxic, has no adverse effect.
    One of the components of urine is urokinase, which is a potent fibrinolytic. This "natural", costless therapy could represent a safe (since merely enhancing an existing physiological process) alternative to nattokinase. At least for those who claim its validity, disregarding Dr. Davis' opinion that it would be destroyed by the acidity of the stomach.
    I practice urotherapy with good results (better digestion, better sleep, no discomfort whatsoever).
    It should be avoided in certain circumstances (see reference above).

  • Anonymous

    10/15/2010 5:54:48 AM |

    I am so glad I found this thread. I have found in life that the truth is usually somewhere in the middle. I am going to try nattokinase. I think nattokinase probably works at least some of the time, probably because if taken properly, SOME of it does survive. But as somebody noted earlier, I also believe some of these people had a severe vitamin K deficiency which was really the problem. Also, I am going to get off of anything that is a blood thinner like Ginkgo, aspirin or anything else and I'm not going to exceed 2,000 FUs a day. The bottom line is, there are too many people claiming to does work and not enough people dying from any adverse effects to keep me from not at least approaching it with caution.

  • Anonymous

    10/30/2010 5:48:32 AM |

    Thanks for the apple cider vinegar suggestion,  I will give it a trySmile  

    Update on my Nattokinase success story;  I had another doppler done on my leg post ACL surgey and all is clearSmile  The Doppler Tech was amazed when he saw the before and after pictures and had me write down the name of my supplement.  He had NEVER seen blood clots completely disappear like the ones in my leg. It feels good 2 prove Dr. Davis WRONG.

  • Anonymous

    10/31/2010 7:04:14 AM |

    Dear Dr. Davis,

    I have read these comments and can tell you from personal experience that Natto is a much safer way to keep blood from becoming sticky and clotting than thinning the blood with strong pharmaceuticals like Coumadin (Warfarin).

    My Dad had heart surgery and a complication that almost killed him post-operatively - a blood clot that traveled to his lung. Thank God, my Mom's intuition and his attentive Heart Specialist for finding it finally.

    Heparin was used for that intense situation. Then he was to go on Coumadin for 6 months.  After 1 month he started to experience blood blotches all over his body after a shower.

    Something was clearly happening to his blood that was not healthy or normal from the medicine - Not to mention having to go for Blood Tests every 3 weeks to see that it's not TOO thin and Not being able to ever eat healthy quantities of Green foods that build the bodies immune and other systems.

    The doctor's took him off of the Coumadin after several months at our  request and put him on daily aspirin - also to thin the blood and prevent future clots.

    It took him almost a full year of being Coumadin free for his post-shower blood splotches to clear up.

    Ten years later, he developed two small clots in his leg below the knee. The doctor wanted to start up a Coumadin again even though my Dad could not tolerate it.

    He warned us the clots could break off and travel at any time. We saw an MD who was also an ND and well versed. He recommended Nattokinase.

    We used it for 3 month and the MRI showed the clots were stationary. We upgraded to Boluoke Lumbrokinase (Many times more effective) and it had been two years and he is healthy.

    No new clots. No aspirin (since it may conflict with Natto or Lumbro). We are down to 1 tablet a day for maintenance with other natural blood thinners like Fish Oil.

    When he skips the Lumbrokinase, he will get leg cramps from the PAD. When he takes it - there is a marked difference.

    Nattokinase and Lumbrokinase are not miracle cures. But they are not derived from what was intended to be a Poision (Coumadin). The liklihood of a deadly side-effect is slim as they are naturally derived and have been used by many people for a number of years in Japan, China and other countries.


    My Dad can eat healthy green vegetables and drink green drinks. People on Coumadin can't and fear they will die without it. He takes the Lumbrokinase (or Natto if we run out of it) in a dose the ND and research has helped us determine works for his condition.

    He doesn't have to have his blood drawn every three weeks. And there are not long-term side effects that we have seen for the past two years.

    In conclusion, with Nattokinase and Lumbrokinase is a viable alternative to medicines that have immediate and possibly serious long term negative effects - even with the positive effects they are prescribed for.

    All I can tell you is that my Dad has a better quality of life  - and isn't that what we see a Doctor for to begin with?

  • Anonymous

    10/31/2010 7:14:50 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    My Dad has been on Nattokinase, and then Boluoke Lumbrokinase for more than 2 years in response to two small blood clots below his kneee.

    He could not tolerate Coumadin - he had it more than fifteen years ago for a blood clot after heart surgery.  It gave him blood splotches all over his body after showering. He was only on it for 2 months. Instead he was on low dose aspirin and we saw an MD who is also an ND for a strong antioxidant and heart health program.

    We decided against the Coumadin and opted for the Nattokinase (3x day). The MRI showed the clots stayed the same size or were slightly smaller after 3 months. No new clots. We upgraded to Boluoke Lumbrokinase (3x day).

    It has been 2 years and no further clots. We are down to 1x a day on the Lumbrokinase.

    My Dad feels great, can eat greens make healthy green drinks and doesn't need to go for a blood test every 3 weeks for Coumadin.  If he skips the Lumbro, he will get a cramp in his legs from PAD - noticeable difference.

    Quality of Life is what it is about for my Dad. We've been through the surgery, drugs and side-effects.  

    With solid health research, consulting an experienced MD/ND and determination to find a solution that is not a long-term use of a strong pharmaceutical drug, we have a healthy program.

    Natto and Lumbro are not miracle cures. But they are giving my Dad the quality of life in his older years he could never have with the long term use of potent medications that interfere with the body's natural processes rather than work with it to strengthen it.

  • Anonymous

    10/31/2010 9:19:57 PM |

    Dr Davis:  What are your thoughts on enzymes such as Wobenzymor other enzyme products such as bromelein for myalgia pain?

  • buy jeans

    11/2/2010 7:42:31 PM |

    I have read his research. I stand by my opinion: Nattokinase is a scam. It is an utterly ridiculous notion that anyone should take oral thrombolytic agents to "prevent blood clots". Thrombolysis is a dangerous strategy, even if it worked in humans by the oral route. An agent that, if it worked, poses serious potential for severe side effects and death needs to be tested thoroughly first. It is plain idiocy to use this agent. It is not fish oil, it is not a vitamin, it is something entirely different that has no basis for use as a preventive. You're throwing your money away.

  • Bpb

    11/3/2010 11:51:49 AM |

    I posted a lengthy comment on November 1, where is it?  If you are going to have free speech then have it. If the moderator is going to choose what get's posted then let's bring back Hitler and burn all the books

  • xanax

    11/7/2010 1:34:10 PM |

    Problem is that it's even nuttier to be taking warfarin chronically, considering it's _known_ interaction with vitamin K

  • Anonymous

    11/7/2010 6:32:53 PM |

    The whole point of warfarin is in it's interaction with vitamin K, that is how it works. Also, warfarin is a nearly identical synthetic derivative of a naturally occuring myotoxin called dicoumarin, so warfarin is about as natural as most supplements being promoted as such. If you were really concerned, you could get the all natural version, dicoumarin.


    Warfarin is nasty stuff, which is why doctors carefully weigh the risks versus the benefits of it.


    If you only believe in testimonial evidence given on this blog by commenters, you can still prove to yourself nattokinase is a scam because there are people here shilling it here claiming it helped them clot as well as bust clots.

  • ardi

    11/11/2010 4:36:36 AM |

    You recommend vitamin K2 for people with heart disease because of its property to slow or reverse the process of calcification of the arteries.  However, vitamin K2 promotes the ability of blood to clot, which is especially dangerous for people with heart disease.  
    I am confused by this contradiction.

  • Anonymous

    11/27/2010 12:29:14 AM |

    Does he work for the pharma industry? Doctors are trained to prescribe drugs. Patients have become used to Placebo treatments. Hey! it's a win-win situation. For 5+ years, I worked for Pfizer in Groton, Connecticut and I have been deeply involved with their marketing strategies. Even if Natto were to work, or works, they will never allow it to be considered safe to use, unless regulated by the Pharma industry. Too much money to be lost here. Yes. This is the truth. Work in a pharma establishment, get involved with their tactics and assess yourself. The whole industry is like Amway (no doubt, there are absolute good things this industry has brought for humanity though). Food for thought - get the book "The Encyclopedia of Medical Breakthroughs and Forbidden Treatments" http://cancerdefeated.com/DIA/ or just Google it.

  • jack

    12/19/2010 11:21:25 PM |

    I don't see the answer to the question posted on November 10 ( i think) which said, You recommend vitamin K2 for people with heart disease because of its property to slow or reverse the process of calcification of the arteries. However, vitamin K2 promotes the ability of blood to clot, which is especially dangerous for people with heart disease.
    I am confused by this contradiction.

    I am lookin for the same answer.
    Thank you

  • jack

    12/19/2010 11:22:18 PM |

    You recommend vitamin K2 for people with heart disease because of its property to slow or reverse the process of calcification of the arteries. However, vitamin K2 promotes the ability of blood to clot, which is especially dangerous for people with heart disease.
    I am confused by this contradiction.

  • Anonymous

    12/20/2010 4:28:57 PM |

    I have read the 'for'/'against' arguments about using Nattokinase with interest. I was looking for some guidance on using this product, but instead have uncovered a 'minefield' of claim and counter-claim. Just who can you believe? Well, history is littered with disasters brought about by so-called 'safe' drugs, developed by the big pharmaceutical companies. So although, clinical trials do need to be carried out, they offer no guarantee of 100% safety or, the prevention of possible side-effects. I am also sceptical of anyone who dismisses something so readily. Keeping an open mind until proven otherwise seems a much more sensible approach, especially with so much positive anecdotal evidence being posted. There is much about the human body that even the most eminent MD does not fully understand. So discrediting Nattokinase without this complete knowledge is, at best foolish. Most people are simply looking for help at a time of concern over their health. Please remember this all you doctors out there and don't ridicule something until you know for sure. And, unless I've missed something - you don't!

  • Dr. William Davis

    12/21/2010 1:04:41 PM |

    Jack--

    K2 NORMALIZES clotting, it does NOT cause it.


    Anon-

    My thinking does not change on nattokinase. It still remains foolhardy to believe that, based on marketing claims and the flimsiest of evidence, that you would chance taking a "supplement" for a potentially life-threatening condition. It's not that I love the drugs; it's I like not dying to enrich some foolish supplement manufacturer who makes claims without evidence.

  • Harold

    12/26/2010 10:34:46 PM |

    All foods, (excepting undigestible minerals) are composed of CHO or carbohydrates, including protein which differs by carboxyl minerals in the CHO chain. So it was interesting that you point out no proteins nor enzymes pass through the intestine into the blood.

    However, breaking down nattokinase to its amino acids does provide the blocks to rebuild serine protease.

    "Serine proteases are inhibited by a diverse group of inhibitors, including synthetic chemical inhibitors for research or therapeutic purposes, and also natural proteinaceous inhibitors. One family of natural inhibitors called "serpins" (abbreviated from serine protease inhibitors) can form a covalent bond with the serine protease, inhibiting its function. The best-studied serpins are antithrombin and alpha 1-antitrypsin, studied for their role in coagulation/thrombosis and emphysema/A1AT, respectively. "
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serine_protease

    It's necessary to eat foods or the enzymes or proteins that can provide the amono acid materials to form enzymes the body uses for repair. The wonder is what other foods could offer the same as natto.

    If the argument is that no proteins or enzymes pass digestion, then it might be assumed that people are wasting time eating them, so fats and sugars are needed.

  • Anonymous

    1/1/2011 12:34:35 AM |

    I'm sure the FDA's sperm finds its way to that nice shiny skin of yours, so why wouldn't nattokinase do the same.

  • Anonymous

    1/11/2011 3:04:46 AM |

    I am done taking Warfarin. I do not want osteoporosis and am using Now Foods Natto-100mg,120 veg cap.

    I feel better than I did on the warfarin. My periods are much better and I do not have the clutching feeling in my chest that I had after being diagnosed with bi-lateral pulmonary embolisms.

    Thank God for Natto. Please research it more. It works.

  • Anonymous

    1/17/2011 5:35:04 AM |

    I had started taking vitamin K2 and notice that my bones are getting stronger (osteopenia) especially my jaw so less problems with my teeth.

    Secondly, I had some "spider veins" popping out on my legs (not severe) and they seem to have disappeared.

    Can someone out there tell me what this phenomena is? I knew about Vit K2 and bones, but spider veins??

  • Anonymous

    1/18/2011 3:31:59 PM |

    Dr. William Davis is either a narrow minded "know-it-all" or he (like many others in his profession) is having his pocket filled with blood money via Big Pharma.  

    I have documented my success story in my several part post and wanted to return to this forum to encourage others that there is hope beyond the rat poison known as Warfarin.  Nattokinase not only prevented further blood clots, but much to my Doctor & his Doppler Tech’s surprise, it COMPLETELY removed the blood clot without even a trace or scar.

    So Dr. Big Pharma can continue showing it’s true colors and bad mouth Nattokinase, & doctors can use medical terms to describe why it’s not possible for this substance to work and those who were willing to risk using a natural alternative to help with blood clots (LIKE MYSELF) can continue 2 prove how ignorant and WRONG they are.

    I will try to check back from time to time and continue my blood clot free success story.

    Good luck to the true believersSmile

  • Anonymous

    1/20/2011 6:45:33 AM |

    My mother who has been chronically ill and misgidanosed for decades began taking nattokinase as well as bolouke, rottozyme (spelling)..and several other supplements in October 2010 under the care of a naturopath physician.  The first in two decades she is showing improvement on multi-system levels!  I find it UTTERLY RIDICULOUS that dr's prescribe dangerous immune suppresents such as Remicade, Enbryl, my mothers were $1200 per pop, 2 hour infusion into her elbow that caused permanent nerve damage, dr's ignoring warning signes that are bioligic and made from mouse and hamster cell protiens, caused lesions in her brain and spinal, and that she was given Celebrex for more than a decade that was black box warned in 2001 and multiple lawsuits for causing strokes.  The proof is in the pudding for me.  My mother's health is improving, she is now walking, talking, showing interest, absolutly no negative side effects.

  • Anonymous

    1/20/2011 7:18:00 AM |

    And, Utterly ridiculous that most people are brainwashed to question natural, mother nature provided us with what we need...and brainwashed to totally trust taking man made synthetic chemicals and invasive surgeries as the only option, thinking them as superior & the only way.  My mother was too frail to endure any more synthetic chemicals that nearly killed her.  Wish I would have known about many of these  alternatives 20 years ago.  Another example, Artemisinin...been around for thousands of years, used to treat malaria and proven cancer cure for many types of cancer, even some strains resistant to chemo.  You won't hear about Artemisinin (the holly grail cure) until the UW professor who currently has a patent and developing a "sythetic version" so Pharma companies can market it. . .puts it on the market. totally true, google it.

  • Anonymous

    1/20/2011 7:39:47 AM |

    And I bet there are many out there who don't believe that parasites, fungus, mold, acidic high fat diet, skeletal structural issues and toxins are the cause for most all disease - and MDs will rarely if ever investigate and treat.  Nor believe that  natural mineral seasalt - the oldest antibiotic known to mankind, oil of oregano - thousands of uses for disease and parasite cures, chlorella, very popular and hightly used in Japan...ionic therapy...personally, I have taken niacin 500 mg every morning for circulation, have since my 20's. I knew somthing was wrong and kept getting poo-pood by dr's...unknown to me, I had congenital lyme, like my mother. For me, kept my blood from turning to syrup & ionic therapy totally helped me to regain my life, health & focus. Everyone is different, exposure, threshold levels..we should all be able to make informed decisions and choices about our health.  Medicare, like many insurance companies, do not pay for alternative medicine at this time...and times need to change. We are so behind the rest of the world.

  • Anonymous

    2/12/2011 6:55:42 PM |

    July 8 you stated there are some truly great supplements but NOT nattokinase. Why did you not name those supplements? Afraid that nattokinase or other healthy supplement would reduce your and big pharmas income?

  • Anonymous

    3/2/2011 5:51:46 PM |

    Fibrovan - I am a 46 yr old from Caddo Mills Tx.  For 2-3 yrs now I have had unbelievable heavy cycles and clots. A sonogram a year earlier revealed I had fibroids. My cycles were so bad, I had a hard time working. The sonogram at the hosp cost $500 w/insurance.  I am a single mom receiving no support and can not afford surgery. I am VERY skeptical and not an easy sell. I decided to try Fibrovan in desperation. I took it faithfully and am amazed at the results!!!! I am having a normal cycle, my stomach feels 'deflated' and I didn't think I was bloated before. I decided to google this product again to see if there were bad side effects.  I never believe these posts that are good and always think they must work for the company.  I AM TELLING YOU so far 100% satisfied !!!!!! Smile

  • Mark UK

    4/19/2011 8:43:40 AM |

    Hi Im Mark 53 years old and live in the UK, I've been in AF since March 2010 I've been on warfarin since June 2010 and have had a good INR of appox 2.5 and Im tested every week.
    2 weeks ago I went for an AF ablation at Harefield Hospital UK after getting myself in the right frame of mind about having the 5 hour ablation operation I was woken after 1 hour to be told they could not see if my LAA (left artial appendage) was clear of clots using an ultrasound device so I was put in a CT scanner only to be told my LAA was full of THROMBUS, so my doctors now want my INR to be 3.00 and I now have to wait 4 to 6 weeks to have another CT scan and hope the Thrombus has gone so I can have the Ablation and pray in the mean time I dont have a stroke or pulmonary embolism. I am concidering that if after the 6 week CT scan the Thrombus is still there that maybe my body needs the help of some nattokinase and less Warfarin if there is a balance to be found I will buy a Blood Testing CoaguChek XS PLUS system kit to test myself daily for my INR of my normal 2.5 level, because I feel to do nothing after my 6 weeks CT scan is maybe waiting time I may not have, I will leave more comments as time goes on and let you read what happens in the weeks to come, Kind regards Mark

  • ggaylmer

    4/26/2011 9:26:22 PM |

    I'm fed up reading opinions from "Anonymous".  Are they all the same person?  Why can't you give your name?  At least Dr Davis is not afraid to give his name.

  • Derek Weiss

    5/26/2011 1:33:05 PM |

    I've worked ER for fifteen years, and while I don't have data, only my observations, I'd have to say your statement is WAY over exaggerated.

  • John Doe

    6/16/2011 6:00:20 AM |

    ggaylmer - I don't know about others but I am the "Anonymous" that posted my multi-part success story and the reason I did not use my name is because I do not trust the power and corruption of Big Pharmaceutical companies.   You may find it hard to believe, but I feel there  is no difference between a multi-billion dollar company protecting it's interests and organized crime syndicates of old.

    I am still 100% clot free and now only use Nattokinase one week a month to make sure I stay that way.  Good Health to allSmile

  • Rick Parker

    7/4/2011 10:56:14 PM |

    I used nattokinase to dissolve some blood clots that I had. It cleared them up with no observed side effects, except that I bruised very easily.

  • John Francis

    7/16/2011 1:09:11 AM |

    Anyone out there have any experiance with using Cardiokinase?

  • Cassondra

    9/9/2011 10:06:12 AM |

    I'm grateful for Nattokinase NSK-SD and Cardiokinase. I had a large DVT stemming from behind my knee to mid-calf in 2006 that went away after taking Nattokinase. I did a blood panel not long after I was diagnosed with the DVT, and was additionally diagnosed with MTHFR (two genes) and Factor 5 Leiden (one gene). My Dr. said I would be a "warfarin-for-lifer" but I was only 23 years old when he said that. I'm not sure I'd be in such good condition today, at 28 years old, if I was still taking warfarin daily. It only took me 4 months of being on warfarin before I decided to educate myself about alternatives. During the 4 months being on warfarin, I felt sick much of the time. After taking Nattokinase for a couple months, I went back to the Dr and I no longer had a DVT. Some might deem me a "guinea pig" to this supplement and I'm okay with that. Nattokinase has helped me stay clot free since 2006, even during my pregnancies. I trust Nattokinase over the prescription options, based on the information I've gathered on all counts. The pros outweigh the cons, and it boils down to what *I* feel comfortable taking based on what I know.

  • Kay G

    10/6/2011 9:57:36 PM |

    Contrary to the negative belief that Nattokinase is only a scam, I must tell you that it SAVED MY life.  I read hoards and hoards of complaints here in the forum that there is NO scientific evidence that if taken oraly that it will be effective.  Well my proof is in MY own experience and that is as follows:  for several months I experienced heaviness in my legs and it became very painful for me to even move out of my drivers seat after my 40 minute drive from work each day.  Each time I pulled into my driveway I'd have to prepare myself for  the pain I knew I was about to endure just moving from my car to my front door.  Not exactly the way one wants to end their work day EVERY day.  But that's only the begining...soon I began experiencing an annoying numbness in my left leg when lying down and that same feeling in my left arm as well.  I would elevate my legs and at times that would help but I knew I had to do something more internally to help.  At the same time I began getting lesions on my legs and began to REALLY become afraid after reading the possible reasons for such on countless sites.  I ran across a site speaking of Natto and its ability to naturally disolve blood clots.  I had NO intention on taking Cumadin or Warifin after reading of its danger AND high costs.  I reseached Natto and decided that to order such from Japan or even CA would NOT be too wise as I had NO interest in worrying about the radiation that has taken place recently.  So I decided to take Nattokinase--its supplemental form.  PLEASE BELIEVE ME WHEN I TELL YOU THAT IN ONE MONTH AND A HALF  after taking it, I have had NOT even ONE of the problems described above.  I'd like to add that I am only 40 which tells me that part of my problem with my circulation had to be genetic...along with my sometimes poor eating habits AND the fact that I STAND for all  8 hours of my work shift there at the PO.  I stand by Nattokinase.  It has help me immensely.

  • vicola65

    3/11/2012 9:52:24 AM |

    I''m commenting on an older post from a woman with heavy menstrual bleeding and fibroids and am hoping that in nearly 3 years since her post she''s found relief but perhaps someone else experiencing the same symptoms may find this helpful. I take Doctors'' Best  serrapeptase and nattokinase, both enteric coated.  Here is how it all started.   I experienced prgressively heavy bleeding which basically took over my life, horrible pelvic pain 24/7, inexplicable bladder infections, constant back pain, borderline aneia and overall debilitating feeling of malaise for years.  My (now former) OBGYN treated individual symptoms as they came up, put me on additional estrogen therapy (!) and prescribed high iron pre-natal vitamins for anemia... basically wrote it off as some of the pain in my head and some attributed to my age (then early 40''s and otherwise appeared healthy).    I found that eliminating all red meat helped a bit but still ate soy-based protein and only wild-caught fish. A week after a ''normal'' annual exam,  in early 2010 I landed in the ER in indescribably agony.  After being pumped full of morphine to allow a scan was told of a ''mass'' on my left ovary.  In the next weeks that follwed it was determined that the mass obscured the ovary and it had to come out asap  to determine if it''s cancer,, given the size.  I was also put on vicodin for pain and for the first time in years had a pain free month .I went in calm just to get the ''thing'' out.   When I came out of surgery, my fantastic oncological surgeon gave me the good and the bad. The good turned out to be that he (laporoscopically) removed my ovary, the fallopian tube .and the tangerine-sized ovarian cyst which apparently grew inside the ovary and had smaller ones forming. The real (ha ha) problem turned out to be a stage iV  (!) endometriosis with ''substantial'' amount of endo scar tissue (YEARS!) which fused my many organs together. It took years t get to that point and the combination of symptoms made me a classic example of this disease.  The hour-lng surgery actually took two hours as my doc attempted to remove as much tissue as possible.  My recovery was great - 1 week back to work vs. 9 if operated old school. I happily waited for the feeling of pelvic ''heartburn'' pain  from before to disappear. Unfortunately, when it did not my new doc explained that I still have endetriosis, the remaining tissue produces exponentially more estrogen and causes it to spread.  She advised  Lupron shots to get that under control and to regulate the pain and avoid further disease advance.   I was devastated especially after learning about the med side effects.  
      Instead, I researched everything I could and decided to start fighting the estrogen attack through a strict ''endo'' diet which was close to how I ate already except no soy at all and, of course, gluten free.  To deal with the existing tissue and help the pain, I''ve been ordering Doctors Best Serrapeptase and Nattokinase and taking both (along with green tea extract) at least 1-2 hrs before food (they are also enteric caps), one nattokinase during the day and both at night.   I have for years taken K2/K1 supplement and 5K Vitamin D3 already.  In less than 2 weeks my pain, including back pain (from Tarlov cyst found during the CT scan pre-op), disappeared. That was about a year ago.  I''ve also added yarrow (hormone regulation) and chaste berry (to control bleeding) and am for the first time in the last decade living pain free and functioning normally.  Based on my experience I bought the same enzymes for my sister in law who suffered horribly from fibroids and she, within a month or two, felt considerably better.  Enteric caps are key. I take mine with a full 12 oz of water with a 1/2 tsp of  aluminum free baking soda.   I also noticed that my 25+ year old tendonitis in my elbows/wrists is completely gone, my knee joints feel as if I were in my 20''s.   I plan to continue my regimen until there is a need for something else. At 5'' 10", 135-140 lbs Imy blood pressure is ideal as is cholesterol. These enzymes and a tweaked diet are the only thing I''''ve changed.  I believe that they work as long as they are taken correctly - enteric caps on an empty stomach, otherwise they just work as potent digestive aids which is not a bad thing.  
    I could not be happier.

  • vicola65

    3/11/2012 10:17:22 AM |

    April, Thank you!   I just (overshared) by story as a response to an earlier post.   Big pharma is not always the answer, no matter how much one''s insurance covers.  In fact, I love having an effective solution or two without the added side-effects or dependency on my insurance in case of job loss.  Tow years ago, if someone told me that taking 400 mg liquid CoQ10 daily would wipe out out my migranes, be totally allergy free by drinking Gypsy Cold Care tea (b''bye $30 month/co-pay) and Serrapeptase/Nattokinase combo  would rid me of chronic pain and is likely dissolving my endo scars... well, I wouldn''t believe it either but there it is.

  • vicola65

    3/11/2012 11:06:31 AM |

    Kay,  I too have read every comment on this forum and vast majority of comments are pro NK SP, not against it.   One person complained about the anonimous posts but, honestly, if he/she does not understand that sharing medical issues on the internet is not a big deal that individual needs to learn a bit more on that topic and that''s not what''s important here.  I am a happy much healthier person having found these enzymes in early 2011. (When I posted I wrote about an ovarian cyst removal in 2011 though accidentally put 2010).  The ONLY point where I would agree with Dr. Davis is that just because something is ''natural'' that it is automatically safe. By the same token, however, just becuase something is natural it does not mean that a Big Pharma solution is more effective.  Curare, for example, is both natural and lethal.  Thankfully, these enzymes bought from reputable vendors (mine are from Doctors Best) are reasonably priced and work great.   Everyone''s bodies are different, many folks suffer from poor absorbtion of nutrients because they''ve spent years eating processed foods, bodies riddled with candida and/or yeast.  We need enzymes to digest properly. Everyone can benefit from these supplements in one way or another.  To get the full clot fight we do have to make a bit of effort but I cannot imagine living without them now.

  • Andrea

    12/11/2012 7:16:01 PM |

    God bless you and I pray Jesus will heal you

  • Bonita

    7/1/2014 11:32:04 PM |

    Due to a short course of Premarin (estrogen) to help with uterine fibroid symptoms in 2009, I ended up with a DVT that spread to my lungs within 2 months with barely any noticeable symptoms until my leg was hurting so bad that I ended up in the ER.  After almost 2 weeks in the hospital on Coumadin and Lovenox I went home and weaned myself off of the Coumadin and started nattokinase.   I took it for about 6 months and went off of it for a brief period until my symptoms returned in my leg.  I restarted it and then took it for another 9 months just to be sure and when I stopped taking it, there were no more symptoms.   So if nattokinase is a scam then why did my clots and symptoms go away and I've had no problems since then?  I would also at times add the serrapetase to the natto as well.   It did also help improve my fibroid symptoms as well.  The enzymes break down any fibrin and dissolves it.  Unlike Coumadin which prevents clotting...not a good thing if you get injured is it?

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