Dr. Joseph Prendergast and l-arginine

In response to a discussion started by Track Your Plaque Member, Rich, on the Member Forum, I tracked down Dr. Joseph Prendergast, who had posted a video on his unique experiences, both personal and professional, with l-arginine.

Dr. Prendergast describes some of this in a brief webcast. Here, I quote Rich:

“This 90-second video by a Palo Alto physician (internal/endocrine, diabetes specialist) will totally blow your mind.

http://enews.endocrinemetabolic.com/2007/08/16-12-years.html

You will see in the link below that he reversed his personal atherosclerotic disease, diagnosed in abdominal aorta at age 37—completely reversed. He's now much older."

http://www.endocrinemetabolic.com/about/press/larginine.pdf



I contacted Dr. Prendergast to find out more.

Dr. Joseph Predergast is founder of the Endocrine Metabolic Medical Center in Palo Alto, California, focused on providing care for people with diabetes. In addition to the website, he provides Blogs and newsletters, though most of his conversation is about diabetes issues. Dr. Predergast’s website is located at http://www.endocrinemetabolic.com.

I asked Dr. Prendergast several questions about his l-arginine experience. His brief answers are below.



1) What dose of l-arginine have you employed in your patients and why this dose?

The dose is 3 - 6 grams as suggested by the Stanford Cardiovascular Research Department Chairman John Cooke. http://med.stanford.edu/profiles/John_Cooke/

2) I gather that you have preference for specific preparations of l-arginine. Can you say why some preparations seem superior to others in your experience?

I started with pharmaceutical l-arginine from the pharmacy. I gradually began to add components that would augment the power of the l-arginine and have gone through 12–15 different products. I have completely reversed my own very severe atherosclerosis discovered at age 37 and there has been less than 0.05% cardiovascular disease in my endocrine practice in almost 17 years. Both my exams were evaluated with CT technology. I am now using ProArgi9 Plus that includes several anti-aging components and will likely never switch. http://www.synergyworldwide.com/synergycorp/home.aspx

3) Are you employing any other unique practices in your patients to reduce cardiovascular events?

Withdrawing as many prescription drugs as possible.




Interesting. Of course, I also advocate l-arginine as a facilitator of atherosclerotic plaque regression, though I am not as ebullient about its use as Dr. Prendergast.

Instead, I see l-arginine as a method that yields forced normalization of “endothelial dysfunction,” the abnormal constriction and other effects that develop when abnormal lipoproteins and unhealthy food by-products are present in the circulation. Endothelial dysfunction is an inevitable accompaniment of plaque.

However, unlike Dr. Predergast’s experience, despite our use of doses higher than he uses, I have never seen plaque regression just using l-arginine alone. Nonetheless, it’s good to hear that others are seeing at least some positive effects.

By the way, we have also had some positive posts on our Forum about the ProArgi9 product he uses.

Comments (21) -

  • DietKing2

    9/7/2007 5:58:00 PM |

    Dr. Davis,
    Thanks for putting up this information and for bringing this doctor into full view for me--I'm always seeking out better and newer ways to prevent any kind of heart problems from manifesting themselves in the first place!

    This information/news is very exciting and encouraging!

    Thank you again!
    Adam

  • Warren

    9/9/2007 5:08:00 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    The product Dr. Prendergast endorses is made by a company he works for and is also sold by his clinic, and lists at $97 for a 30-gram supply.  So following Track Your Plaque principles, this would cost almost $200 a month.  Do you think the claimed improvements in this l-arginine product really justify this huge expense?

  • Warren

    9/9/2007 6:55:00 AM |

    I'd like to correct my earlier comment - the product has 30 "servings" that deliver 5 grams of l-arginine each.  In Track Your Plaque, you recommend 5 to 6 grams twice daily, so this would last 15 days.

  • Dr. Davis

    9/9/2007 1:37:00 PM |

    Hi, Warren-

    As often happens, it is difficult to separate marketing from fact.

    I am personally skeptical that this product offers any specific advantage unless they produce specific data to prove it. I hope my questions to Dr. Prendergast do NOT come across as an endorsement. It was simply providing some information from an interesting perspective, in this case dug up by a Track Your Plaque Member.

    For these reasons, one of the tools we're working on is the Track Your Plaque Marketplace, a place on the Track Your Plaque website that will allow both us and you to post your comments, experiences--both good and bad, and sort of WIKI-like collective experience and wisdom. We're also trying to arrange the possibility of free samples for trying some of the products.

    As always, we are not selling the products, but directing people to the places they are available.

  • Rich

    9/10/2007 1:39:00 AM |

    Hi Dr. Davis and Warren:

    FYI, Dr. Cooke of Stanford told me earier this year that he has "backed away" from the arginine endorsements and he wishes to revise his 2002 book on the subject.

    I made another comment in the Advanced Discussion board today about Dr. Prendergast, if anyone is interested.

  • Rich

    9/15/2007 2:21:00 AM |

    Apologies for all the comments:

    I looked at the ingredients in the expensive arginine product that Dr. Prendergast endorses. It has a few extra good things -- that don't justify the price -- but are useful:

    Arginine 5g
    Citrulline - "Proprietary" - I estimate 0.5g
    D3 powder - 2500 IU (may not absorb per Dr. Davis's recommendations on oil-solubility)
    Ribose - "Proprietary" - I estimate 1g -- not enough to do anything
    K2 - 20 mcg (not enough)
    B6, B12, Folic -- small amounts
    Grape stuff - "Proprietary" - maybe 50 mg or so of polyphenols

  • Anonymous

    9/19/2007 3:29:00 AM |

    I'm baffled. After reading your book and researching
    the net on l arginine I sent away for Now Sports l-arginine powder (100% pure free form).
    I just received  it today and on the suggested usage table it states "Do not use if you have established
    coronary artery disease".
    Why would they say that ?
    Love your blog
    Gene Mc

  • Dr. Davis

    9/19/2007 12:08:00 PM |

    Hi, Gene--

    The only reason I know of was a study that suggested heightened risk of death if l-arginine is taken after a heart attack.

    In my view, the study was flawed since it is alone in show this effect, the numbers were small, and the majority of the deaths in the group taking arginine had stopped taking it months earlier when the deaths occurred.

  • Jim

    3/14/2008 3:27:00 PM |

    Hello all, I'm a new blogger here. Let's start off with a bang! The comments about ProArgin9 are fairly amusing, it's basically a hugely-overpriced elemental l-arginine powder with a couple added nutrients one could easily improve upon for a much cheaper price.  Don't believe the ads on this one, the hype is almost as bad as the statin ads.

  • Jim

    3/14/2008 3:37:00 PM |

    This is new blogger "Jim" again. A few additional comments of mine on arginine supplementation in general... The point isn't that arginine in itself will cure all that ails you (in fact, users looking for quick dramatic results with arginine for problems such as male ED will be disappointed), but that it is one fairly inexpensive strategy that can, importantly, improve the arginine:ADMA ratio favorably, which is important for optimal nitric oxide production. If you're not familiar with ADMA, look at some of the clinical studies on this risk factor, and you'll be better able to appreciate some of the logic behind supplemental arginine.

  • Dietrick

    10/12/2008 9:53:00 AM |

    My wife and I have used L-Arginine for years and now work with several scientist to actually measure the effect we felt using it, and have developed our own mix.

    Dr. Allen and Dr. Pendergast are making missleading claims. Dr. Allen is not even a real doctor and neither of them ever provided ANY data to support their missleading claims.

    L-Arginen ONLY works well in the right dosis, attached to a slow carb and mixed with equal amounts of L-Licine and some other ingredients, those I will list on my web site.
    When taken in the right dosis, at the right time, the right way intake of L-Arginine DOES work well. There can be no doubt about it. BUT Synergy World Wide and other companies who got their stuff from Dr. Allen or made something of their own trying to clone hers, failed to do any DOUBLE BLIND STUDIES, not even a small one!
    And the price of $97 is a HUGE RIP OFF.
    At best the stuff ONLY cost about 12 bucks per kilo to make. To sell it in these low dosis and with sucralose  or what ever artificial dioxin based sweetener is criminal!
    DO NOT BUY IT FROM DR. ALLEN OR SYNERGY, if you do you waste your money.
    I and am NOT selling it in the US. I only sell it in Europe. At least for now, untill we have done our own double blind and can verify.

  • Realta

    9/12/2009 9:47:47 AM |

    Hi I am fascinated by this article. I have a friend who recently had a test done by synergy doctor selling proargi9 and guess what it said her blood pressure was normal (she's 58) her heart was perfcet but her arteries were those of 80 yr old female. So she was put on very high and very costly doses of proargi9. Also on the subject of arginine. My daughter took some (not proargi9) arginine in june and ended up in hospital after passing out. Her blood pressure had dropped severely.
    She was also put on drip for dehydration.
    I believe that arginine is banned in canada - any comments??

  • Tommy

    9/14/2009 7:06:40 AM |

    I am a 42 year old male who has been taking a mixture of Pro-Argi9 plus, Mistica and Core Greens for over 6 weeks.
    The reason I started on this is because I am a care-giver for my mother.  She is 75 years old and has suffered a stroke in 2004, followed by a triple by-pass surgery in 2006, has type 2 diabeties and anemia, osteoporsis, arthitis, and had both hip restructuring and replacement surgery as well as a broken wrist in  2008.  I wanted to enable her to recover easier, and I wouldn't give her any more "medicine" to take without trying it myself.  The difference for both of us has been amazing.  Not only has my mother's rehabilitation been quicker than before, she is also benefiting from eyesight improvement and her blood pressure is "perfect" as quoted from her personal physician.
    The effects on myself have been almost as drastict.  I have more energy and feeling better and healthier than when I was 20.
    I have also seen some great results in others including personal friends who have started taking the above on my recommendation.
    I researched the net pretty well before I started and don't take my mother's health lightly.  If you are able to show certified medical data to back up your statements, then I am happy to stop taking it and will let others know the same.

    With regards to the price, the products produced by Synergy Worldwide are the only ones available with the stated ingredients etc that I have been able to source.  I have seen the tablet and capsule forms and believe me, on a cost per recommendended doseage, the Synergy product is far more economical.  
    In any circumstances, with the amount of money I've seen women spend on dying their hair with caustic chemicals, or men put over the bar or into their "wheels", the cost of 30 scoops at Synergy's recommended dosage, equates to $25.00 per week, less than the cost of a week's worth of cappacinos. Very well worth it for my health.

    Regards
    Tom

  • Dusty

    5/24/2010 4:44:39 PM |

    After reviewing the article from Dr. Prendergast I decided to try His Proargi9 Plus having been diagnose with Atherosclerosis about two years ago. I am on no medication but I get angina after long walks.

    I started with one scope per day and increase to two scopes per day. I noticed after 5min I would start feeling angina it would go away after a few minutes. Is this normal? with this product.

  • Anonymous

    5/26/2010 11:56:19 PM |

    I would really like to try l-arginine but wonder if there are any contra-indications if a person is taking plavix???  I am also taking lipitor.  I had a triple by-pass 7 years ago and a stent last November. I am 63 years old and lead a healthy lifestyle (regular exercise & healthy diet & meditation).  My doctors don't know anything about this alternative and cannot advise me much.  Is it safe for me to take this????  Also, Herbal life makes a product (Niteworks).  Do you have an opinion on this product??
    Kristin Ann

  • Peter

    6/3/2010 8:29:24 AM |

    Hi guys,
    I've taken ProArgi9plus for 4 months and feel heaps better. My angina has gone and my thrombisis pain is nearly gone as well.
    I have 2 friends. One has had 4 major heart attacks and a 6 bypass op. The other one has had 5 bypass and 3 heart attacks since plus 5 stents. They wanted to do more bypass ops but he said no.
    Both have spoken to Dr Prendergast and taken as per his instructions. Both have changed dramatically over a period of time. Both look like they did years ago and seem to have their lives back. As for the price... I think it's cheaper then a funeral. I don't fancy looking up through the dirt any time soon.

    Peter
    PS If you 'd like to speak to the guy who had 6 bypass I know he's happily talk to anyone as he feels so good.

  • Peter

    6/3/2010 8:37:07 AM |

    Hi Guys,
    Just to start I have to say I sell ProArgi9.
    The reason I do is because I have 2 friends who both should be dead. One in Western Australia has had 4 major heart attacks and then a 6 bypass op. Ended up in an electric wheelchair. Could hardly walk anymore.
    The other guy is from Sydney Australia and had 5 bypass 8 years ago, several heart attacks since and 4 stents. Finally told him he needed 4 more bypasses.
    Both went on the arginine on high dose after talking to Dr Prendergast. Both are now in amazing health. The Sydney guy has just spent 2 weeks traveling across the US learning more about clinical hypnotherapy.

    The WA guy just a couple of months ago traveled around Aus. I've know the WA guy for 30 years and the other one for approx 20 years so I knew them when they were healthy and also when they were sick.

    Hope this info helps in your decision making.
    Peter

    PS if you'd like to talk to one of them I think I could arrange it.

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 9:13:58 PM |

    Dr. Joseph Predergast is founder of the Endocrine Metabolic Medical Center in Palo Alto, California, focused on providing care for people with diabetes.

  • HealthNut2

    3/14/2011 6:57:28 AM |

    Has anyone compared before and after CT Scans after using an L-Arginine/L-Citruline protocol?

  • Donna

    3/19/2011 7:19:34 AM |

    I have been on ProArgi-9 Plus since Dec 30th 2010 and have had some amazing health benefits from it. I am doing 4 scoops a day.
    I had suffered from dizzy feeling for the last 2 years where I felt like I was going to fall out of my chair. That feeling stopped the first day of taking ProArgi-9. I also have not had any hot flashes or restless leg symptoms since taking it.
    I have vascular diease. I have a stint in my left cartoid, my right cartoid is closed. And I have had a balloon angioplasty on my aorta 3times. I am 54 years old female.
    I plan on taking ProArgi-9 for the rest of my life. After all what is your health worth? I will find a way to pay for it. I am worth it. Smile

  • Anonymous

    3/28/2011 3:36:41 AM |

    Further to my comments of my two friends who got better on ProArginine. One has proof from to 2 angio-grams one year apart.

    He makes enormous amounts of ADMA (been tested) and had to take between 30 to 40 grams of pure arginine a day. Thats up to 8 scoops a day. He had 4 stents blocked and had been told he had to have the bypasses or die within a month or two.

    One year later his cardiologist said he may feel well but he still needed the opperation. He had another angio-gram. His blocked stents were totally clear. He can run and play with his grandchildren again for the first time in years.

    My oppinion derived from testing over 200 people using the BPro machine (which is 99.1% as accurate as an angiogram)is that the synthetic versions I.e. cheap arginines do not work anywhere as well as plant derived products.
    Also people taking arginine hcl mostly didn't improve. Some did Smile

    Argine hcl is arginine attached to hydrochloric acid. Many people don't react well to this. Those that do need to take a higher dose to get the same effects as those taking a pure arginine.

    BTW Before using and recommending arginine to my clients I contacted quite a few companies and none of them would tell me how they sourced their arginine and if it was synthetic, soy based or or what. Synergy was the only one who did so. Theirs comes from organically grown tapioca or sugar cane.

    I would never use or recommend soy based products as 90% of the worlds soy is now genetically modified and how do you know if what is being used is GM safe or not.

    Hope this helps anyone trying to decide what to do.

    Get yourself a high grade pure arginine that is plany based.

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Real men don't eat carbs

Real men don't eat carbs

Real men don't eat carbs. At least they don't eat them without eventually paying the price.

How do carbohydrates, especially those contained in "healthy whole grains," impair maleness? Several ways:

--Consume carbohydrates, especially the exceptional glucose-increasing amylopectin A from wheat, and visceral fat grows. Visceral fat increases estrogen levels; estrogen, in effect, opposes the masculinizing effects of testosterone. Overweight males typically have low testosterone and high estrogen, a cause for depression, emotionality, weight gain, and low libido.

--Sugar-provoking carbohydrates like wheat cause visceral fat to accumulate which, in turn, triggers prolactin to be released. Increased prolactin in a male causes growth of breasts: "man boobs,""man cans," "moobs," etc. This is why male breast reduction surgery is booming at double-digit growth rates. In cities like LA, you can see billboards advertising male breast reduction surgery.

--Carbohydrates increase visceral fat that sets the stage for postprandial abnormalities, i.e., markedly increased and persistent lipoproteins, like chylomicron remnants and VLDL particles, that impair endothelial function literally within minutes to hours of ingestion. Impaired endothelial function underlies erectile dysfunction. This is why Internet spammers so enthusiastically send you offers for discounted Viagra.

--Carbohydrates increase blood sugar which provokes the process of glycation, glucose modification of proteins, that also contributes to endothelial dysfunction followed by erectile dysfunction.

Real men therefore avoid carbs.
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CT scans and radiation exposure

CT scans and radiation exposure



The NY Times ran an article called

With Rise in Radiation Exposure, Experts Urge Caution on Tests at

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/19/health/19cons.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&adxnnlx=1182254102-vQpytpx6W/Z9gvAaNPDZvA



“This is an absolutely sentinel event, a wake-up call,” said Dr. Fred A. Mettler Jr., principal investigator for the study, by the National Council on Radiation Protection. “Medical exposure now dwarfs that of all other sources.”


Where do CT heart scans fall?

Let's first take a look at exposure measured for different sorts of tests:



Typical effective radiation dose values

Computed tomography Milliseverts (mSv)

Head CT 1 – 2 mSv
Pelvis CT 3 – 4 mSv
Chest CT 5 – 7 mSv
Abdomen CT 5 – 7 mSv
Abdomen/pelvis CT 8 – 11 mSv
Coronary CT angiography 5 – 12 mSv

Non-CT Milliseverts (mSv)

Hand radiograph Less than 0.1 mSv
Chest radiograph Less than 0.1 mSv
Mammogram 0.3 – 0.6 mSv
Barium enema exam 3 – 6 mSv
Coronary angiogram 5 – 10 mSv
Sestamibi myocardial perfusion (per injection) 6 – 9 mSv
Thallium myocardial perfusion (per injection) 26 – 35 mSv

Source: Cynthia H. McCullough, Ph.D., Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN


If you have a heart scan on an EBT device, then your exposure is 0.5-0.6 mSv, roughly the same as a mammogram or several standard chest x-rays.

A heart scan on a 16- or 64-slice multidetector device, your exposure is around 1.0-2.0 mSv, about the same as 2-3 mammograms, though dose can vary with this technology depending on how it is performed (gated to the EKG, device settings, etc.)

CT coronary angiography presents a different story. This is where radiation really escalates and puts the radiation exposure issue in the spotlight. As Dr. Cynthia McCullough's chart shows above, the radiation exposure with CT coronary angiograms is 5-12 mSv, the equivalent of 100 chest x-rays or 20 mammograms. Now that's a problem.

The exposure is about the same for a pelvic or abdominal CT. The problem is that some centers are using CT coronary angiograms as screening procedures and even advocating their use annually. This is where the alarm needs to be sounded. These tests, as wonderful as the information and image quality can be, are not screening tests. Just like a pelvic CT, they are diagnostic tests done for legimate medical questions. They are not screening tests to be applied broadly and used year after year.

Always be mindful of your radiation exposure, as the NY Times article rightly advises. However, don't be so frightened that you are kept from obtaining truly useful information from, for instance, a CT heart scan (not angiography) at a modest radiation cost.



Detail on radiation exposure with CT coronary angiograms on multidetector devices can be found at Hausleiter J, Meyer T, Hadamitzyky M et al. Radiation Dose Estimates From Cardiac Multislice Computed Tomography in Daily Practice: Impact of Different Scanning Protocols on Effective Dose Estimates. Circulation 2006;113:1305-1310, one of several studies on this issue.

Comments (8) -

  • Anonymous

    6/20/2007 1:13:00 AM |

    I had a calcium score scan on a 64-slice machine at the Morristown Hospital in New Jersey. No contrast was injected. The technician did three separate scans that included the lung, even thought I didn't for a lung scan. I wonder why three scans were taken. Does it mean that I had three times the radiation?

  • Dr. Davis

    6/20/2007 1:22:00 AM |

    Hi,
    Of course I can't comment specifically on what was done, but it is common practice to perform 1) a "scout" film for the technologist to identify the location of important "landmarks" like the sternum and the top and bottom of the heart to minimize the window of exposure, and 2) lung imaging as a routine part of  heart imaging, not necessarily an additional scan.

    If an additional and unrequested lung scan was performed, you may want to call and ask why this policy is in operation.

  • Anonymous

    6/21/2007 4:35:00 AM |

    What do you feel about yearly nuclear stress tests for people with CAD?  The radiation exposure seems high and the ability of a stress test to pick subtle changes in flow is low.  In the absence of symptoms it would appear that the common practice of nuclear stress tests for people with CAD is a questionable practice.

  • Dr. Davis

    6/21/2007 12:14:00 PM |

    I agree. The radiation is excessive. I tend to follow that route only when nothing else is possible. An alternative for stress testing is stress echocardiogram in its various forms, none of which involve radiation. They still suffer the other pitfalls of stress testing, of course, but do not involve radiation.

  • Mike

    12/20/2008 11:40:00 AM |

    I just launched a webiste that may answer some of your questions.  www.xrayrisk.com. It allows you to calculate your cancer risk based on studies you have had and answers some faq on radiation exposure and cancer.

  • Anonymous

    12/6/2009 12:52:26 AM |

    There are several ways to estimate your cancer risk - the best site for background information is probably the Image Gently campaign.

    The American College of Radiology has similar information pages for patients and the general public.

    To track your exposure, as Mike said there's the xrayrisk website.
    There's also a program for the iphone called Radiation Passport that tracks all of your radiation exposure and gives you the associated risk of developing cancer from your radiation exposure.

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 6:33:12 PM |

    CT coronary angiography presents a different story. This is where radiation really escalates and puts the radiation exposure issue in the spotlight. As Dr. Cynthia McCullough's chart shows above, the radiation exposure with CT coronary angiograms is 5-12 mSv, the equivalent of 100 chest x-rays or 20 mammograms. Now that's a problem.

  • Medical CT

    11/29/2010 4:34:03 AM |

    The CT scanner was originally designed to take pictures of the brain. Now it is much more advanced and is used for taking pictures of virtually any part of the body.

    The scanner is particularly good at testing for bleeding in the brain, for aneurysms (when the wall of an artery swells up), brain tumours and brain damage. It can also find tumours and abscesses throughout the body and is used to assess types of lung disease.

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Spontaneous combustion, vampires, and goitrogens

Spontaneous combustion, vampires, and goitrogens

What do the following have in common:

Lima beans
Flaxseed
Broccoli
Cabbage
Kale
Soy
Millet
Sorghum?

They are all classified as goitrogens, or foods that have been shown to trigger goiter, or thyroid gland enlargement. Most of them do this either by blocking iodine uptake in the thyroid gland or by blocking the enzyme, thyroid peroxidase. This effect can lead to reduction in thyroid hormone output by the thyroid gland, which then triggers increased thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) by the pituitary; increased TSH acts as a growth factor on the thyroid, thus goiter.

Add to this list of goitrogens the flavonoid, quercertin, found in abundance in red wine, grapes, apples, capers, tomatoes, cherries, raspberries, teas, and onions. Most of us obtain around 30 mg per day from our diet. Quercetin, often touted as a healthy flavonoid alongside resveratrol (e.g., Yang JY et al 2008), has been shown to be associated with reduced risk for heart disease and cancer. Many people even take quercetin as a nutritional supplement.

Quercetin has also been identified as a goitrogen (Giuliani C et al 2008).

What to make of all this?

Most of these observations have been made in in vitro ("test tube") preparations or in mice. Rabbits who consume a cabbage-only diet can develop goiter.

How about humans? The few trials conducted in humans have shown little or no effect. In most instances, the adverse effects of goitrogens have been eliminated with supplemental iodine. In other words, goitrogens seem to exert their ill thyroid effects when iodine deficiency is present. Restore iodine . . . no more goitrogens (with rare exceptions).

Should we as humans adopt a diet that avoids apples, grapes, tomatoes, red wine, tea, onions, soy etc. on the small chance that we will develop goiter?

I believe that we should avoid these common food-sourced goitrogens with as much enthusiasm as we should be worried about spontaneous combustion of humans or the appearance of vampires on our front porches. We are as likely to suffer low thyroid activity from quercetin or other "goitrogens" as we are to experience the "mitochondrial explosions" that are purported to set innocent people afire.

Comments (17) -

  • Lena

    5/27/2009 12:12:26 AM |

    The advice given by thyroid docs, at least the kind that understand more about it than average and are willing to prescribe Armour, etc, is that you should reduce goitrogen intake while you are first starting treatment for hypothyroidism and/or iodine deficiency, then they're OK to have more of in your diet. The goitrogenic effect of most of them is minimised or negated by cooking anyway. Mine did advise that soy could be a bit more problematic and you should avoid consuming any within four hours of taking your thyroid medication, if you swallow the medication instead of taking it sublingually.

  • maxthedog

    5/27/2009 6:19:28 PM |

    Very interesting!  I was hoping you would follow up your iodine/goiter posts with something about goitrogens.  I'd like to read up on the human trials, if there's anything more than abstracts available.  Any urls handy?  Also, just wanted to say I really appreciate your blog, and thank you.

  • flit

    5/28/2009 2:34:37 AM |

    I have Hashimoto's thyroiditis and my endocrinologist (who is fantastic; she titrates my dose to my symptoms, and has me on Armor) has suggested that I want to take the following two precautions around goitrogens:

    a) Don't eat the "biggies" such as soy within four hours of taking my thyroid medication.

    b) Eat them moderately and fairly steadily; a serious pig-out on raw broccoli or edamame after weeks without may cause a swing, but a normal diet that includes them is no big deal.  This means that I actively want to include these things in my diet (which is good, because I both like them and they are good for me.)  If I keep the amount steady then we can just balance my dose against any goitrogenic effect they might have.

  • pooti

    5/28/2009 12:59:23 PM |

    My understanding of the cruciferous vegetable family is that their goitrogenic effect is negated or at least minimized by cooking or fermentation.

  • Anonymous

    5/28/2009 6:22:31 PM |

    Hi Dr Davis,

    FYI - in case you are not aware, the home testing kit shopping area is not working.  At least I've tried ordering with two different computers with out luck.

  • Dr. William Davis

    5/29/2009 1:24:18 AM |

    Flit--

    Thanks for your comments.

    I like option "b", the most practical and logical.

  • Dr. William Davis

    5/29/2009 1:26:01 AM |

    Anon--

    I believe that the lab test area should be working now.

    We are in the process of transferring all files over to a new website and servers. There may therefore be momentary glitches that shouldn't last more than a few minutes while the programmers make the switch.

    On the bright side, the new website will be more user-friendly.

  • Dr. William Davis

    5/29/2009 1:27:39 AM |

    Max--

    The easiest way is to just go to PubMed.gov and enter the relevant search terms.

    You will find oodles of studies, many in mice or in vitro preparations, a few in humans. You can specify which--mouse vs. human, for instance, in your choice of search terms.

  • kris

    5/29/2009 12:59:49 PM |

    The researchers claim that the findings provide little evidence that "in euthyroid, iodine-replete individuals, soy foods, or isoflavones adversely affect thyroid function."
    The researchers also stated that "there remains a theoretical concern based on in vitro and animal data that in individuals with compromised thyroid function and/or whose iodine intake is marginal soy foods may increase risk of developing clinical hypothyroidism. Therefore, it is important for soy food consumers to make sure their intake of iodine is adequate." They also claim that "some evidence suggests that soy foods, by inhibiting absorption, may increase the dose of thyroid hormone required by hypothyroid patients."

    This study is suggesting that soy is safe -- unless you have a thyroid condition, or iodine deficiency. It also suggests that soy foods can inhibit absorption of thyroid medication.
    The study doesn't address the fact that it's estimated that as much as one-fourth of the U.S. population is now iodine deficient, and that the number is on the rise. At the same time, many millions of Americans also have undiagnosed autoimmune thyroid disease. At minimum, if you accept the premise of this study, that means that more than 75 million Americans with iodine deficiency may be at risk of thyroid problems from soy consumption. If you include the up to 60 million Americans who have a diagnosed or undiagnosed thyroid condition, almost half of all Americans could be at risk of soy-related thyroid problems.

    It's also troubling to note that the author of this study -- and several other recent studies claiming soy is not a danger to the thyroid, is Mark Messina, PhD. Messina, though not a medical doctor, also goes by the name "Dr. Soy." Messina had been in charge of grant funding at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), where he oversaw a $3 million grant for soy studies. Soon after he left NIH, he was hired to serve on the scientific advisory boards of both the United Soybean Board, and international soy agribusiness Archer Daniels Midland. He still serves on both scientific advisory boards as a paid advisor. In addition to his work on these advisory boards, Messina is a consultant to the United Soybean Board and editor of its soy-related newsletter, and serves as a paid speaker and consultant to promote the positive benefits of soy for the United Soybean Board's "Soy Connection.". Messina has also published a number of books promoting soy. The "Political Friendster" website, which tracks corporate influence, has documented the close relationship between Messina and the various corporate players in the soy industry.

    the full 5 page article can be read at.
    http://thyroid.about.com/cs/soyinfo/a/soy.htm?nl=1

  • Anonymous

    5/30/2009 1:51:56 AM |

    Help, I am so confused!

    I have a goiter and nodules diagnosed via an ultrasound screen. I have an appt with my MD to take the next step to do lab etc. I am hoping the goiter is caused by iodine deficiency and not Hashimotos. I have been reading about supplementing with iodine but some folks say take lots (12+ mgs) others say taking more will exacerbate a hypothyroid condition. I have been taking kelp capsules 4 daily supplying 1600 mcg. I have been tempted to up the dose but don't want to mess things up. Should I wait until test results come back, then if it is negative for Hashi's go ahead and do mega doses? or should I not be afraid to supplement?

    Thanks for this blog, and thanks for all the intelligent comments through-out. I have learned so much.

    Laura in Arizona

  • Anonymous

    6/2/2009 12:49:52 PM |

    Hi again Dr Davis,

    I was the one that wrote earlier about having troubles ordering testing kits.  The system still is having trouble - at least with my computers, at home and work.  Thought you might want to know.  
    The error occurs after pressing the submit order button.  

    Below is a cut and paste of what the error says.  Hope this helps!    

    Server Error in '/' Application.
    Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.
    Description: An unhandled exception occurred during the execution of the current web request. Please review the stack trace for more information about the error and where it originated in the code.

    Exception Details: System.Runtime.InteropServices.COMException: Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.

    Source Error:

    Line 146:
    Line 147:    Public Function ProcessCC(ByVal PaymentObject As PaymentObjCC) As ArrayList
    Line 148:        Dim pfpro As New PFPro
    Line 149:        Dim Response As String
    Line 150:        Dim pCtlx As Integer


    Source File: E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainApp_CodePayflowProPFProProcessor.vb    Line: 148

    Stack Trace:

    [COMException (0x80040154): Retrieving the COM class factory for component with CLSID {17B9BE57-09EA-11D5-897B-0010B5759DED} failed due to the following error: 80040154.]
       PayFlowPro.PFPro..ctor() +13
       PFProProcessor.ProcessCC(PaymentObjCC PaymentObject) in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainApp_CodePayflowProPFProProcessor.vb:148
       Checkout.CompleteOrderCC() in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainproductsCheckout.aspx.vb:970
       Checkout.btnSubmitOrder_Click(Object sender, EventArgs e) in E:inetpubwwwrootTYPTYP_MainproductsCheckout.aspx.vb:1113
       System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.OnClick(EventArgs e) +111
       System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +110
       System.Web.UI.WebControls.Button.System.Web.UI.IPostBackEventHandler.RaisePostBackEvent(String eventArgument) +10
       System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(IPostBackEventHandler sourceControl, String eventArgument) +13
       System.Web.UI.Page.RaisePostBackEvent(NameValueCollection postData) +36
       System.Web.UI.Page.ProcessRequestMain(Boolean includeStagesBeforeAsyncPoint, Boolean includeStagesAfterAsyncPoint) +1565


    Version Information: Microsoft .NET Framework Version:2.0.50727.3082; ASP.NET Version:2.0.50727.3082

  • Anonymous

    1/8/2010 6:28:02 PM |

    What a great resource!

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 3:41:19 PM |

    How about humans? The few trials conducted in humans have shown little or no effect. In most instances, the adverse effects of goitrogens have been eliminated with supplemental iodine. In other words, goitrogens seem to exert their ill thyroid effects when iodine deficiency is present. Restore iodine . . . no more goitrogens (with rare exceptions).

  • Lena

    1/21/2011 6:06:50 PM |

    ABOUT THE QUESRCETIN has also been identified as a goitrogen (Giuliani C et al 2008).

    WOW, this is the most detailed information I have seen so far  online about the Resveratrol and flavonoids being goitrogenic,

    I have been searching and searching, as I just had read briefly of an experiment with rats that showed Resveratrol (red wine + grape seeds extract) was causing the thyroid gland to enlarge
    I really appreciate you posting this info

    I have hypothyroidism, I take small doses of Armour and it really works great for me, and was taking Resveratrol too, (which by the way, it seemed to help me a lot, especially with giving strength and gloss to my hair)
    So when i heard about this experiment i was shocked. Then I found out that even all kind of fruits are goitrogenic (as you point out) and tea and greens and garlic and onion and potatoes and beans, but above all, fruit and grapes.

    Is so hopeless, I in fact, by fear, suspended the resveratrol, and now, and is funny, as now I am experiencing some minor hair loss, I am sure due to that I stopped taking this amazing supplement which was helping my hair to grow strongly

    So I am so confused, my doctor as most of doctors, do not have a clue, as there is no enough info about all this and also no willingness to look into this research as well

    He told me to stop taking it
    But as you point out, then we should also stop eating then, as it seems that for one reason or another ,, all food is goitrogenic, soy, brassica greens, all greens, and veggies and fruit and also chickens and animals that seems are fed with goitrogenic grass and seeds
    So what choice do we have?
    ALSO I found this experiment on same PubMed which seems contradictory, I am not a doctor but it seems that it helps to add iodide (which is in iodine)  to the thyroid???

    IS there any MD on this site who might throw some light on this???

    or anyone here who has read more on this quercetin or Resveratrol? or knows about where to find more info about real evidence that flavonoids really work that way in humans????
    (by the way thank you for posting the Giuliani experiment, was that on humans or rats?)

    Does anyone knows of a good medical website or any that provides more information about this confusing subject?
    Please, help, let me know,
    Thank you
    Nella

  • Lena

    1/21/2011 6:09:52 PM |

    OOPS
    about the QUERCETIN

    here is that experiment URL
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20151827

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