Report from Washington II

Today's discussions at the Society for Cardiovascular Computed Tomography (SCCT) focused on atherosclerotic "plaque characterization".

As CT scanners get better and better at imaging the various components of plaque, some fascinating issues emerge:

--CT heart scans provide insights into what exactly is contained in an individual's atherosclerotic plaque that are not often provided even during heart catheterization. In other words, CT heart scanning is, in many instances, superior to heart catheterization, since it provides images of the artery wall, not just the internal contents.

--Progression (i.e., increase) in heart scan score is a powerful predicter of heart attack risk. Dr. Matthew Budoff of UCLA argued persuasively that the annual rate of increase in score is probably the most accurate measure of risk available, superior to cholesterol and calculated measures like the Framingham risk score.

--Coronary calcium scoring remains the best method to gauge total plaque throughout the entire coronary tree. In a person free of symptoms, the risk of a cardiac "event" (heart attack, death, procedures) is low and additional imaging (like CT angiography) is generally unnecessary.


Dr. Budoff, among the true thought leaders in CT heart scanning, also recounted his perspective on the history of heart scans. He noted that the questions asked through the years have evolved:




1995-2000 Should we do coronary calcium scans?

2000-2002 Do high or low risk patients benefit from coronary calcium scoring?

2003-2004 What is the better scanner, EBT or MDCT?

2006 How often should we perform coronary calcium imaging?


I believe that Dr. Budoff summarizes wonderfully where the Track Your Plaque programs fits into the overall scheme of things: Serial (repeated)CT heart scans to gauge progression or reversal is the wave of the future. We shouldn't just be interested in identifying persons at risk for heart attack. We should also be interested in showing the person at risk exactly how to reduce or eliminate that risk.

Report from Washington





I'm presently attending the Society for Cardiovascular Computed Tomography meetings in Washington, DC, along with 500 of my colleagues. It's exciting to see how interest in CT scanning for heart disease has balloonned in the past couple of years.

Several trends are noticeable today, based on the content and tone of the discussions:

--CT scanning of the heart, and imaging in general, is just getting started. In other words, the capabilities for CT scanners and other devices to detect heart disease (coronary and otherwise) are where the gasoline engine was in the 19th century. Scanning is getting faster, easier, safer, and more precise. Just as few people in 1905 could have predicted that automobiles would be computer-enhanced, high-speed, ubiquitous devices with several per household, the potential for CT imaging for heart disease is truly in its infancy.

--CT coronary angiography (so-called "64-slice CT scans") are not screening tests for hidden coronary disease in people without symptoms. I was grateful that this point has been made and reiterated by several speakers, as this is consistent with our views. Simple CT heart scans for coronary calcium scoring, in contrast, are screening tests. When the radiation exposure of CT angiograms are reduced to tolerable levels, then they may be used as screening tests. We are probably 3-4 years away from this point.

--Both stress testing and heart catheterizations will be partially replaced by CT scanning. In particular, over the next decade, you will see a dramatic drop in unnecessary catheterizations, i.e,, far less people saying "I had a heart cath but they told me that it was normal."


There has been heavy focus on applications of CT scanning for acute settings, particularly the emergency room and hospitals.

What has surprised me is that there is virtually no conversation whatsoever about the preventive uses of CT heart scanning. So far, only Dr. Daniel Berman of UCLA has shown that he has "seen the light": CT scans are a crucial tool for identification of early coronary plaque, and this tells us whether prevention is necessary and with what intensity.

There has been, however, no discussion at all about quantification of plaque in a program of reversal. Perhaps that should come as no surprise, given the imaging-technology focus of this convention. For most of my colleagues, prevention is also not terribly interesting. Identification and treatment of acute disease like impending heart attack is.

Of course, applying the information from your CT heart scan to empower you in a program and reversal is what the Track Your Plaque program is all about. I hope you see the light. I admit that it's not always easy to follow what we are advocating here. Perhaps not too different than telling someone in his horse-drawn buggy that one day he'll be driving a sleek car with onboard computerized mapping, air-conditioning, and micro-chips to modulate engine performance. He's probably tell us we're nuts.

I'll continue to update if any news relevant to our interests crops up in these meetings.

What about the Track Your Plaque failures?

I’d love to tell you that the Track Your Plaque program track record is of 100% success. It’s not.

It is very successful. But we’ve had some people who have failed and failed BIG. These are the people who've undergone bypass surgery, received one or more stents, or had heart attacks. Lesser failures are the people who’ve had large, undesirable increases in heart scan scores of >30% in one year. (The expected rate of increase in your heart scan score without preventive efforts is 30% per year, on average.)

What can we learn from those failures? There were several characteristics that stand out among this small group:

· Non-compliance--meaning they just didn’t stick with it. They started out right but then rapidly lost interest in maintaining all the pieces of the program and neglected their fish oil, niacin, gain weight, etc. Matthew did this and ended up with three stents to his left anterior descending. His slow start was due to skepticism that the program worked and just plain forgetfulness.

· Extreme stress--One of our earliest failures was a 38-year old man whose heart scan score doubled in one year, despite doing everything right. But three family members, all close to him, died within the space of six months, including his mother and a brother. I regard this as one of those instances in which we were powerless, unfortunately, though it is a graphic example of the power of unresolved stress and grief.

· Having a “better way”--These are the couple of people who were convinced that they had a better way to control their heart scan score. David firmly believed that his two dozen supplements and exercise program would drop his score. Instead, they permitted a 42% increase. Lee relied exclusively on chelation, along with several supplements of his own design. Lee had three-vessel bypass surgery.

· Starting too late--Gerome started with a score of 1179, but also was having chest pressure with emotional stress. His stress test was abnormal, with the entire upper half of his heart not receiving blood with exercise on a stress nuclear study (“anterior ischemia”). Gerome received four bypass grafts. Unfortunately, Gerome never really had a chance to engage in the Track Your Plaque program, since his health and safety were in jeopardy as soon as he started.

Have we had any big failures of people who did everything right, were compliant, were not subject to extreme stress (more than just job stress, or financial worries), didn’t neglect the basic requirements of the Track Your Plaque program, and had sufficient time (at least 6 months to 1 year)? No, thankfully, we have not.

No one who has stuck to the program has had a big failure.

Be smarter than your cardiologist

“Do you need a stent?”

Sad to say, but that sentence condenses the wisdom of over 90% of practicing cardiologists.

Prevention of heart disease means take Lipitor or some other statin and cutting the saturated fat in your diet. That’s it. Maybe throw in exercise.

Regression of coronary plaque? That phrase has only entered the conversation since the AstraZeneca-supported trial of Crestor succeeded in achieving 8% regression of plaque (Track Your Plaque Members: See News) as demonstrated by intracoronary ultrasound.



In other words, in the minds of my colleagues, it can’t be true until a drug company tells them it’s true. It’s beyond me why this brainwashing of otherwise intelligent people has occurred, but it is blatantly evident in practice.

Fish oil is another example. The spectacular benefits of fish oil have been known for 20 years. But only recently has it become a “mainstream” practice to recommend fish oil, largely because a drug manufacturer has put a preparation through the rigors of FDA approval (Omacor) and is now marketing directly to physicians. All of a sudden, fish oil is a good thing? No, it’s just achieved legitimacy in the eyes of practitioners because it graces marketing literature.

If you’re reading this, you’re likely interested in coronary plaque regression using the only tool available for you to measure, track, and regress coronary plaque: CT heart scans. Intracoronary ultrasound will achieve the same goal, but it is an invasive procedure performed at heart catheterization, involves threading a wire and imaging probe all the way down the artery, involves real risk of tearing the inner lining of the artery, and is costly (around $14,000-$20,000 for the entire package). Do it every year? That’d be nuts.

If you’re thinking about coronary plaque regression, using fish oil, concerned about patterns like low HDL and small LDL, aware of the vitamin D deficiency issue as a coronary risk factor, etc., you are far more aware than the vast majority of practicing cardiologists. They are interested in what new brand of anti-coagulant to use during their heart catheterization (because the product representative gushes about the new agent—only $1200 a dose!). Or, they are interested in gaining the procedural skills to put in a new device like a biventricular pacemaker. Regress/reverse coronary plaque? What for?

You already know that a conversation about coronary plaque reversal will not be obtained in your cardiologist’s office. Your family practice doctor or internist? Fat chance! Knee arthritis, pap smears, pneumovax inoculations, sore throats, gout, back pain—they’re spread far too thin to know anything more than the most superficial amount about coronary plaque control. Most know nothing.

That’s where we come in. That’s our mission: Educate people about the extraordinary tools that you have available to you, all in the cause of control or reversal of coronary plaque.

Why am I here?

Frank came to the office for an opinion, sent by his (proactive) family physician.

"I really don't know why I'm here, to be honest."

Two years earlier, Frank had a heart attack, survived and received two stents to his circumflex coronary artery. He now took Zocor and his LDL cholesterol was a reasonably favorable 89 mg, total cholesterol 183 mg.

"I walk with my wife every other day. I've been avoiding fish fries. You'll never see me eat fast food."

Frank was correct: If we were going to engage in the conventional approach to coronary disease, Frank was on the right track. We would have postponed his next heart attack or procedure by a couple of years. Stroke, aneurysm, and other atherosclerotic manifestations would be set back, likewise, a few years.

Would Frank have profound control over his disease? Absolutely not. In fact, his disease had probably advanced a huge amount just in the two years since his stents were placed and he was on his "prevention" program. Without his current effort, his coronary plaque would be expected to grow 30% per year. On Zocor and his modest lifestyle efforts, plaque growth was probably in the 14-28% per year range.

So I explained the unique Track Your Plaque approach to Frank. First, we start with a CT heart scan to establish where he was starting. Although he had two stents in his circumflex artery, we still had two other arteries (LAD, right coronary) to score and track.

We then attempt to identify all hidden causes of his heart disease and then correct them.

Of course, Frank had multiple hidden causes:

--HDL too low at 38 mg/dl
--Small LDL-severe, in fact, with 95% of all LDL particles in the small category
--Triglycerides too high
--Excesses of several triglyceride-containing particles (VLDL, IDL)
--Pre-diabetes--Frank had both a borderline high blood sugar and a high insulin level. This is a sure-fire stimulus to coronary plaque growth.
--A severe deficiency of vitamin D (<20 ng/ml)
--An excessivelyhigh blood pressure during exercise--With a blood pressure of 190/102 on the treadmill.

There were others(!), but that was the bulk of the causes behind Frank's coronary disease.

Once Frank recognized that there was indeed a huge panel of hidden causes for heart disease, not just too much fat in his diet and LDL cholesterol, he jumped into the program head first.

The message: The conventional approach is absurdly oversimplified, a certain path to failure for the majority of people. Even if you don't have known coronary disease like Frank, but just have a heart scan score >zero, the same principles apply to you.

Catheterization to “define coronary anatomy”

Gary is an avid jogger. On an average day, he runs 5-6 miles at a good clip. On two occasions recently, however, Gary experienced an ache in his left shoulder at mile 4. It was a toothache-like feeling, but he kept on going without difficulty.

Gary also had a heart scan score of 370.

Upon hearing of Gary’s score and his shoulder sensation, the cardiologist who saw him advised a heart catheterization “to define coronary anatomy”. (This is a real incident.)


What exactly does that mean? Why would Gary’s cardiologist need to define it?

In my view, this is an absurd notion. No one needs to “define coronary anatomy”. This catch-all phrase is commonly used to justify heart procedures. I believe what the cardiologist is saying is that it’s the easiest (for the cardiologist) and perhaps most generously reimbursed method to determine whether Gary’s symptoms are warning of an impending heart attack or not.

The problem is that the question can also be answered quite well by doing a stress test. Though not perfect diagnostic tests, stress tests are useful when symptoms are present that are doubtful in nature. Gary’s left shoulder ache could have been related to his heart, but the likelihood was that it was not. A stress test would have answered the diagnostic question quite adequately.

Instead, this man was subjected to an invasive test that was likely unnecessary. This happens dozens, if not hundreds, of times per day just around here. Nationwide, it is an epidemic of malpractice.

There are, indeed, times when a person should proceed directly to a heart catheterization. This is commonly and appropriately performed when a person develops unstable heart symptoms, such as chest discomfort or breathlessness at rest while not doing anything physical, or if the frequency is increasing, or if a stress test shows an important abnormality. There is no question that heart procedures can be lifesaving at times.

The problem is that thousands of people every year are scared into these procedures inappropriately. Beware!

It doesn't matter what I eat!

"How are your food choices?" I asked.

"What does it matter, doc? I take Lipitor. Doesn't that take care of it? I eat what I want!"

So declared Matthew. What he "wanted" was pretty much the diet of a teenager: pizza, cheeseburgers, soft drinks, snacks. His "beer belly" (visceral fat) gave it away. So did his blood work that showed flagrant lipoprotein abnormalities--small LDL, an HDL of 37 mg, and a severe after-eating flood of fat represented by increased "intermediate-density lipoprotein" (IDL).

Like many people, Matthew had been persuaded (or chose to believe) that LDL cholesterol was the sole cause for heart disease. Lipitor was therefore was all he needed. It must be great--how else could they afford all those slick TV commercials?

Well, it is definitely not true. In fact, with the persistence of Matthew's abnormal lipoprotein patterns, we should expect his heart scan score to continue to grow by 30%--the very same rate of increase as if he were taking nothing.

Specifically, Lipitor and drugs like it do not:

--Raise HDL.

--Correct or reduce the proportion of small LDL.

--Block after-eating flood of fat, nor do they accelerate clearance of unhealthy fats persisting in the bloodstream after eating.


Yes, what you eat does have real consequences, even if you take a statin drugs. In fact, the foods you ingest have a remarkably rapid and dramatic effect on what your blood contains. Any diabetic who checks his/her blood sugar knows this. They eat a slice of whole wheat toast and watch their blood sugar skyrocket.

Mind what you eat. Make it enjoyable, of course. But drugs do not provide impunity.

People with higher scores need to try harder

Sam is a 69-year retired physician. He was thoroughly enjoying retirement: golf, travelling, going out to dinner two or three times a week, spending weekends with his grandchildren. His lifestyle tended towards overindulgence, but he managed to stay fit and trim. At 6 ft 1 inch, he weighed 194 lbs and could still run 3 miles without too much difficulty. Not as good as his marathon-running days, but still not too bad for 69.

Sam's heart scan score in 2003 was a concerning 1983--extensive plaque. His doctor wasn't much help in interpreting the scan and so Sam simply chose to ignore it.

A chance conversation with a physician friend 18 months later made Sam think that perhaps this shouldn't be ignored. That's when he came to my office.




I find that sometimes the best way to motivate someone to take action is to demonstrate just how fast plaque grows if action isn't taken. So I advised Sam to get another scan first, since 18 months had passed. His score: 2441, or a 23% increase.




Sam was now starting to catch on. We made several changes in his prevention program (starting from virtually nothing). He did undergo a stress nuclear (thallium type) of test, which he passed without difficulty--normal blood flow in all heart territories despite the extensive plaque.

But, for some reason, Sam simply allowed himself to drift back to old habits: poor choices in food, overindulging in hard liquor, missing his fish oil and other supplements, and his medication, sometimes up to several days a week.

Sam started having unusual feelings in his chest. He described a sort of nervousness along with skipped heart beats. So we repeated a stress test. This time, a large area of reduced blood flow in the front of his heart ("anterior left ventricle") was detected. Sam ended up receiving three stents in a difficult procedure.

The moral: If you're starting out with a lower heart scan score of, say, 100 or 200, maybe you'll get by without trying too hard--maybe. But if your score is higher, say, several hundred or in the thousands, you got to try harder.

You're starting later in the process. Your disease will allow you very little slack. Let your guard down and it will get you. Control over your plaque is, indeed, very possible--we do it all the time. Score reduction is also possible. But your effort must be more serious and consistent.

Money can't buy health

Fallen Enron CEO, Kenneth Lay, was pronounced dead early this a.m. after suffering a heart attack.

Mr. Lay apparently had no history of heart disease and there's been no indication that symptoms provided any warning. His death was therefore classified as "sudden cardiac death".


Yet here's a man previously worth hundreds of millions of dollars with access to any test or medical system he desired--many times over. Even more recently, with his wealth reduced following his legal troubles, he and his wife managed to put away $4 million dollars to ensure an income from the interest through annuities, untouchable by the courts.

Detecting Mr. Lay's heart disease would have cost him around a few hundred dollars or whatever it costs for a CT heart scan in his city. This would have alerted his (hopefully knowledgeable) doctor that he was a time-bomb. Pile on all the stress he'd been suffering, whether deserved or no, and the diagnosis would have required little thought.

Instead, Mr. Lay has joined the thousands of Americans who will die this year because of failing to get a simple, 30-second test that costs one-tenth the cost of a stress test. Mr. Lay wasn't as lucky as former President Bill Clinton, whose doctors likewise blundered their way through and missed obvious levels of heart disease.

All Mr. Lay needed was better information: get a heart scan, then follow a program of prevention like the Track Your Plaque program. You may not have hundreds of millions of dollars, but you have the information on how to not follow in Ken Lay's footsteps. Track Your Plaque--and stay alive.

What's important, what's not in your plaque-control program

Sometimes it's hard to know what is really important in your plaque-control or plaque-reducing efforts.

There are, indeed, crucial make-it-or-break-it factors that are necessary to gain control over plaque. If you hope to stack the odds of reducing your heart scan score as much as possible in your favor, then fish oil, vitamin D, 60-60-60 in the way of standard lipids, elimination of small LDL, etc. -- all the elements of the Track Your Plaque program--are necessary.

But there's lots of things that sidetrack people. I spend much of my day fielding questions from patients about all the things that either provide very little benefit for plaque control, or provide none at all.

Among the things that we have found to be too weak or useless for plaque control, or are "non-issues", include:

--Caffeine--Go ahead and enjoy a couple cups a day (though not a pot). The effect is too trivial to make much difference.

--Hawthorne--Yes, it may dilate coronary arteries modestly, but not enough to make any difference.

--Garlic--with the possible exception of a specific preparation called Aged Garlic Extract (an acqueous, non-oil-based, extract from Kyolic), garlic's effects are too tiny to help, e.g., drop in blood pressure 1-2 points. Use it, but don't expect much. Aged Garlic Extract may be an exception, in that a single study from UCLA suggested specific effects on slowing coronary plaque growth. We await more info on this.

--Anti-oxidants--There is no shortage of extravagant claims about the benefits of anti-oxidants. Unfortunately, there's very little human exerience with pine bark extract, pycnogenol, grapeseed extract, and so on. Is the purported benefit from anti-oxidation or through some other means, e.g., enhancement of nitric oxide synthase? No data.

--Policosanol--If you've followed the Track Your Plaque Special Reports, you already know what a disappointment this agent has been, despite the too-good-to-be-true clinical data. It doesn't work.

--"No-flush niacin"--Unfortunately, no flush, no effect. This high-priced supplement is still sold widely in the U.S. despite its complete lack of efficacy. It does not work in humans. (It works great in rats!)

Track Your Plaque continues to try to be the arbiter of truth in what works, what doesn't in truly stopping or reversing your coronary plaque. The proof positive? Stopping or dropping your heart scan score.
Food sources of vitamin K2: Reprint

Food sources of vitamin K2: Reprint

For some reason, my December, 2007, Heart Scan Blog post, Food sources of vitamin K2, has been receiving a lot of traffic.

I therefore reprint the vitamin K2 post below.





Vitamin K2 is emerging as an exciting player in the control and possible regression of coronary atherosclerotic plaque. Only about 10% of dietary vitamin K intake is in the K2 form, the other 90% being the more common K1.

The ideal source of K2 is natto, the unpalatable, gooey, slimy mass of fermented soybeans that Japanese eat and has been held responsible for substantial decreases in osteoporosis and bone fractures of aging. Natto has an ammonia-like bouquet, in addition to its phlegmy consistency that makes it virtually inedible to anyone but native Japanese.

I say that the conversation on vitamin K2 is emerging because of a number of uncertainties: What form of vitamin K2 is best (so-called MK-4 vs. MK7 vs. MK-9, all of which vary in structure and duration of action in human blood)? What dose is required for bone benefits vs. other benefits outside of bone health? Why would humans have developed a need for a nutrient that is created through fermentation with only small quantities in meats and other non-fermented foods?

Much of the developing research on vit K2 is coming from the laboratories of Drs. Vermeer, Geleijnse, and Schurgers at the University of Maastricht in the Netherlands, along with several laboratories in Japan, the champions of K2.

MK-7 and MK-8,9,10 come from bacterial fermentation, whether in natto, cheese, or in your intestinal tract; MK-4 is naturally synthesized by animals from vitamin K1. While natto is the richest source of the MK-7 form, egg yolks and fermented cheeses are the richest sources of the MK-4 form.

Chicken contains about 8 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving; beef contains about 1 mcg. Egg yolks contain 31 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving (app. 6 raw yolks). Hard cheeses contain about 5 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving, about 70 mcg of MK-8,9; soft cheeses contain about 30% less. Natto contains about 1000 mcg of MK-7, 84 mcg MK-8, and no MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving.















Feta cheese

Thanks to the research efforts of the Dutch and Japanese groups, several phenomena surrounding vitamin K2 are clear, even well-established fact:

--Vitamin K2 supplementation (via frequent natto consumption or pharmaceutical doses of K2) substantially improves bone health. While K2 by itself exerts significant bone density/strength increasing properties in dozens of studies, when combined with other bone health-promoting agents (e.g., vitamin D3, prescription drugs like Fosamax and calcitonin), an exaggerated synergy of bone health-promoting effects develop.



--The MK-4 form of vitamin K2 is short-lived, lasting only 3-4 hours in the body. The MK-7 form, in contrast, the form in natto, lasts several days. MK-7 and MK-8-10 are extremely well absorbed, virtually complete.

--Bone health benefits have been shown for both the MK-7 and MK-4 forms.

--Coumadin (warfarin) blocks all forms of vitamin K.





Interestingly, farm-raised meats and eggs do not differ from factory farm-raised foods in K2 content. (But please do not regard this as an endorsement of factory farm foods.)

Another interesting fact: Since mammals synthesize a small quantity of Vit K2 forms from vitamin K1, then eating lots of green vegetables should provide substrate for some quantity of K2 conversion. However, work by Schurgers et al have shown that K1 absorption is poor, no more than 10%, but increases significantly when vegetables are eaten in the presence of oils. (Thus arguing that oils are meant to be part of the human diet. Does your olive oil or oil-based salad dressing represent fulfillment of some subconscious biologic imperative?)

If we believe the data of the Rotterdam Heart Study, then a threshold of 32.7 micrograms of K2 from cheese yields the reduction in cardiovascular events and aortic calcification.

It's all very, very interesting. My prediction is that abnormal (pathologic) calcium deposition will prove to be a basic process that parallels atherosclerotic plaque growth, and that manipulation of phenomena that impact on calcium depostion also impact on atherosclerotic plaque growth. Vitamins D3 and K2 provide potential potent means of at least partially normalizing these processes.

As the data matures, I am going to enjoy my gouda, Emmenthaler, Gruyere, and feta cheeses, along with a few egg yolks. I'm going to be certain to include healthy oils like olive and canola with my vegetables.


All images courtesy Wikipedia.

Copyright 2007 William Davis, MD

Comments (59) -

  • Chloe

    1/19/2010 3:11:02 AM |

    "Egg yolks contain 31 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving (app. 6 raw yolks)."

    Any data on the effect of cooking or methods of cooking that would affect the MK-4 in eggs?  Soft boiled, hard boiled, fried (I use coconut oil or butter)whole yolk like over easy, scrambled, in a quiche?  

    Any thoughts on other fermented foods and vitamin K--sauerkraut, kim chi, dill pickles?  

    And...I have the Thorne Vitamin K2 supplement that supplies vitamin K2 (menatetrenone) one drop equivalent to 1 mg (1250% %DV).  How number of drops daily?

    Thank you, Dr. Davis, for bumping this information to more current status.

  • Dexter

    1/19/2010 3:24:22 AM |

    Dr Davis,

    I have read on several blogs that
    canola oil...rapeseed oil...is one of the frankenfood oils to avoid
    along with corn oil, soybean oil,
    safflower oil because they are high in PUFA omega 6 and thus are pro inflamatory agents.
    Dr Kurt Harris at Paleonu.com is one who has written to avoid canola as well as flaxseed oil.

  • Ed

    1/19/2010 3:26:55 AM |

    I thought bone marrow had k2 in it? If so, this would have been a very appealing source to primitive man.

  • Dexter

    1/19/2010 3:28:06 AM |

    Dr Davis,

    I was under the impression that canola oil as well as flaxseed oil
    is to be avoided because of the high PUFAs Omega 6 FA.

    Dr Kurt Harris at paleonu.com has written to avoid those oils high in O-6s.

  • Stan (Heretic)

    1/19/2010 3:30:21 AM |

    Another beneficial effect of K2 is reversal of tooth decay and self-healing of broken teeth.   This is based on my personal observations.

  • Hillary

    1/19/2010 4:17:06 AM |

    An interesting study was published within the past several years, by Chris Masterjohn.  His study was to identify the "activator X" factor reported by Dr Weston Price in the early 20th century as being found in the butterfat, organs and fat of animals feeding on rapidly growing green grass (i.e. in the spring).  "X" was also found in fish roe and perhaps other seafood.  

    Dr Price believed the vitamin-like 'activator X' was critical for the body's utilization of minerals, prevention of tooth decay, brain function, protection against heart disease and so on. He was never able to identify this factor but did concentrate butterfat (from (spring) grassfed cows) into a butter oil which he gave to patients in his studies on various health issues, with reportedly excellent results.  At least one company today sells butter oil produced from grassfed cows under the same conditions and I know several people who are convinced this has helped keep their families healthy.

    For more than 60 years no one knew what activator X actually was until Masterjohn investigated it in detail.  It is his belief that activator X is vitamin K2.  His study (with references)can be found at: http://www.westonaprice.org/On-the-Trail-of-the-Elusive-X-Factor-A-Sixty-Two-Year-Old-Mystery-Finally-Solved.html#summary

    Hillary

  • pmpctek

    1/19/2010 4:23:45 AM |

    Don't forget butter fat is another very good source of vitamin K2 MK-4.

    Weston Price would argue that dairy fat and eggs from farm raised animals fed (K1 rich) fast-growing grass do have a higher K2 content when compared to grain-fed factory raised animals.  Much of modern animal feeds have high amounts of menadione (a K3 supplement) but the animal's ability to synthesis this to K2 is unknown.

    Price's analysis also showed that  a human intestine's ability to synthesis K1 to K2 is much less efficient compared to that of a ruminant's intestine.  I guess that also kind of explains why humans wouldn't do as well on a diet solely consisting of grass as that of a cow.

    http://www.westonaprice.org/On-the-Trail-of-the-Elusive-X-Factor-A-Sixty-Two-Year-Old-Mystery-Finally-Solved.html

    http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/06/vitamin-k2-menatetrenone-mk-4.html

  • Anonymous

    1/19/2010 4:35:50 AM |

    DH tried natto because he's intolerant of eggs, casein and a few other foods. He didn't care for it. How many servings of chicken does he need in a week? Would chicken broth have any?

  • LeenaS

    1/19/2010 5:55:08 AM |

    You did not mention butter as a decent K2-MK4 source. Why?

    Butter and cream are our greatest sources of K2, next to egg yolks.

    Thanks for the blog and regards,
    LeenaS

  • Vladimir

    1/19/2010 6:10:31 AM |

    Do you think it would be a good idea to take Vitamin K2 supplements?  Life Extension has one with 1mg MK-4, 100 mcg MK-7, and 1mg Vitamin K1.  Good idea, or premature?

  • Dr. William Davis

    1/19/2010 1:27:43 PM |

    I believe that the data on K2 are compelling. Does K2 supplementation , or at least weighing diet in favor of K2-containing foods, reduce cardiovascular risk or provide better atherosclerotic plaque control? While the circumstantial evidence suggests it will, we still lack the K2 vs. placebo trial that would prove the concept. Nonetheless, because of the data on bone health (which is quite confident), I personally believe there's nothing to lose. I personally supplement 1000 mcg per day.

  • Dr. William Davis

    1/19/2010 1:28:47 PM |

    Pmp and Leena--

    Thanks for reminding me about the butter.

  • Anonymous

    1/19/2010 2:51:58 PM |

    Observational studies have linked low intakes of vitamin K with osteoarthritis. No research yet as to whether this vitamin can be used to treat that disease, but I think there is some promise there. More natto, eggs, and leafy green veggies for me.

  • Phil

    1/19/2010 3:02:56 PM |

    Dr Davis,

    So glad to see your posting on Natto. Could please elaborate on the desirability of consumption of Natto by people who are on Warfarin therapy? You mention that Coumadin blocks all forms of Vit-K and I seem to have read that taking K2 while being on Warfarin is okay. Any pointers to published literature is welcome!

    Thanks,
    Phil

  • TheOtherKim

    1/19/2010 6:11:29 PM |

    I'll second Dexter's question.  I too, was under the impression that canola oil was not a "healthy" fat.

  • Jim

    1/19/2010 6:37:35 PM |

    Another Weston A Price article written by Chris Masterjohn is at

    http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/Cure-for-Cancer-Activator-X-May-Be-the-Missing-Link-1799.html.html

    Note the C(ancer) word in the link.

  • Katie

    1/20/2010 12:08:00 AM |

    Dr. Davis, I am heterozygous for Factor V Leiden.  I'm not on any anticoagulants, such as warfarin, and have not had any complications.  I am really interested in K2 supplementation because it seems to have so many health benefits, but have been nervous because of my blood clotting condition.  Do you know if K2 supplementation is safe in someone with one Factor V Leiden gene mutation?

  • Coach Jeff

    1/20/2010 3:05:30 AM |

    Could the atherosclerotic plaque found in Egyptian Mummies possibly have been a mere vitamin-k deficiency? I just never bought the theory that it was totally caused by their grain consumption.

  • Anonymous

    1/20/2010 3:21:08 PM |

    I am on warfarin since December for AFib/flutter which is OK now with sotalol.   I told the cardiologist I didn't like taking warfarin since it destroyed vit K.  He said no, it was the other way around, vit K destroys warfarin, and said "we want you to take vit K".  My INR stays low and they keep increasing the dose.   I believe that warfarin is a vit K antagonist, the more I take the more it will destroy the vit K.  

    I can feel it when I am arrhythmic, I weigh 115 lbs, am 62, female and have a low CHADS score, some borderline HBP for which I take norvasc. 15 years ago I had mitral valve repair for a flail leaflet.  How much should I argue with him?   I already have osteopenia.

  • cete

    1/21/2010 4:50:19 AM |

    There was a study on low dose warfarin after coronary artery bypass to see if it helped prevent graft occlusion. It didn't. What they did find was a reduction in mortality after bypass with the warfarin, of about 30%. What I wonder is if adding more vitamin K as a supplement will make you more prone to clot. I worry that this could be a case where there is less calcium, but more clotting in the arteries with the extra vitamin k as one of those unintended consequences.

    I would like to here your thoughts about this.

  • Dr. William Davis

    1/21/2010 12:02:04 PM |

    Provided you are not taking warfarin (Coumadin), vitamin K2 supplementation or eating foods rich in K2 should NOT make your blood clot any more than normal.

    I tell my patients that taking vitamin K2 is no more likely to make your blood clot than filling your gas tank to the top makes your car go faster.

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    1/21/2010 4:50:04 PM |

    I just love my Natto and vitamin K2 supplement. Nothing clears my brain fog like Natto.

  • cete

    1/22/2010 4:59:28 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    Thanks for your answer. I take a lot supplements and over the years have added and dropped some due to changes in information about efficacy and safety. With my terribly high calcium score, 686- I have familial hypercholesterolemia, I have been interested in the Vitamin K2 supplements. What has held me back is the question of safety. Over the years some of trials of supplementation with vitamins and other natural compounds that seemed to make sense didn't turn out well clinically. Specifically, I was thinking of the failure of benefit from folic acid supplementation for elevated homocysteine and the problems associated with beta carotene in smokers.

    Perhaps it is time now for me to give the Vitamin K2 a try.

  • David Moss

    1/22/2010 9:29:09 PM |

    Great post, I'm always after information on K2 (although I read the article in its original form too!).

    Anyway I was interested to see feta in your list and photographed... I thought that feta being a basically unmatured cheese would be quite low (I used to eat tonnes of 18month-5 year matured cows cheese before I switched only to goat/sheep dairy, so I'd be interested if it was worthwhile eating feta for K2.

    I always wondered how much the amounts cited for "hard cheese" varied from cheese to cheese, and how much was from fermentation and how much from cheese being 80% butter.

  • Anonymous

    1/24/2010 6:35:38 PM |

    back in 2002, I had an angiogram due to a series of waring signals and family history. Turns out I had two blockages but somehow my heart had built its own pathways around hence no heat attack. The Surgeon said, he couldn't do much and I needed to get on medication as soon as possible. I won't bother with details but I did slowly make progress to be able to cycle and walk long distances but I always had jaw ache and tightness in my chest just after starting any exercise. I would stop catch my breath, wait for the pain to subside and neither symptom would show again until I went through a rest period.

    In Canada the max allowed K2 dose  is 120mcg. Having looked at the various studies, and mechanisms, I decided K2 was my best bet to see some improvement. I was taking 6 capsules of 120mcg MK4 per day. I felt a whole lot better. So, on a trip to the States, I purchased Life Extension "Super K" which is 1000mcg or 1grm of MK4 and mega-dosed for 6 weeks on 6grm/day.  I am back down to one capsule now but I no longer get ANY angina on changes to intensity of exercise. I played soccer in the summer. I even went Jogging in the first part of winter without any issues (heart at least, my lungs are way out of shape!)

    Is K2 in high dose safe? I have no idea, but I feel it has worked for me and like so many life style choices, that is a big element in one's well-being.

  • livesimply

    1/25/2010 2:29:26 AM |

    I am hypothyroid and avoid all soy; also gluten and casein sensitive so avoid gluten foods and dairy.  I do eat whole eggs regularly and leafy greens with hi-oleic safflower oil or avocado oil.  And since butter is mostly fat and very little casein I do have a fair amount of that, too.  Smile

    Should I therefore avoid the natto (soy) form of K2 and stick with MK-4 or MK-8?  

    Thanks--very interesting topic.

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  • Anonymous

    2/22/2010 4:36:52 PM |

    Great post, first of all!!!

    Second of all, I have a comment on this part of your post:

    "--The MK-4 form of vitamin K2 is short-lived, lasting only 3-4 hours in the body. The MK-7 form, in contrast, the form in natto, lasts several days. MK-7 and MK-8-10 are extremely well absorbed, virtually complete. "

    While this is true, it tells us nothing about which form is better for human physiology.  Although MK-4 disappears from the bloodstream rapidly, that could either be a good or bad thing.

    On the one hand, this could indicate that MK-4 is rapidly taken up by cells, and thus has a greater physiological absorption than MK-7.  MK-7 hangs around much longer in the bloodstream, but this could very well mean that MK-7 is NOT used by human cells very well.

    On the other hand, it could be that MK-4 is being rapidly removed and excreted from the bloodstream.

    I suspect that the more likely scenario is the first, because the human body does not produce any MK-7 at all.  If you consume MK-1 (phylloquninone) the human body will process some of this into MK-4.  If you take human tissues samples, you will find ONLY MK-4.... no MK-7 or MK-9 at all.

    MK-4 is what mammals produce naturally, so it is likely the most physiologically active.

    Just a comment.

    -greg

  • chave

    3/3/2010 6:14:59 PM |

    Hi Dr. Davis
    I've been very interested in the Japanese and their lower postmenopausal hip fracture and heart disease rates.  I'm probably one of the people who added to the traffic on your K2 info.

    What also interests me is that the Japanese (and most Asians in general) traditionally use very little in the way of milk products too.  They have low fracture rate and low BMD, interestingly.  They only consume about 500mg of calcium per day mostly through vegetable sources.

    I have a study that rated the relative importance of K, magnesium, Vitamin d and calcium in relation to fractures and calcium had the lowest association if any at all.  Vitamin K was strongly associated.

    Ecological studies show that cultures that consume less milk have lower fracture rates and that as they consume more milk their rates go up.

    Also, I've been reading a bit on the so-called bone-vascular axis and how there might be a connection between osteoporosis and vascular calcification.

    Is it possible that the recommendation to consume 3 daily helpings of dairy and supplemental calcium is contributing to the much higher fracture rate and heart disease in the West?

  • Cris P (Alonzo Neighbor)

    4/6/2010 6:30:10 PM |

    Dr Davis - like a previous poster, I have a factor V (Leiden) heterozygosity. I am currently taking a D3 tab with K2 several times a day for bone health as I now have ostopenia in my neck and osteoporosis in my spine.  I have previously had a TIA and am concerned about another or a full-blown stroke.  After my TIA, my cardiologist found a PFO, which further complicates things.  Is it safe for me to take up to 1,000 mcg of K2 daily?  Thanks

  • sammy

    4/9/2010 2:16:07 PM |

    If you’re looking for a supplement to assist in bone health, consider VitaNat Natural Natto Vitamin K2. This takes natto, the Japanese superfood known for being nature’s richest source of Vitamin K, and puts it into capsules. No extracts, no vitamin supplements, just Natto blended to a standard strength of Vitamin K2. Vitamin K2 is recognised for its role in maintaining good bone health, for more information look up www.vitanatshop.com.

  • Anonymous

    5/12/2010 12:17:12 AM |

    Canola oil is not 'healthy'.  It is processed and most likely GMO.  The industry promoted it as health... Go with Coconut Oil instead! Cheers! Smile

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    6/9/2010 10:58:46 AM |

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    9/18/2010 2:50:50 AM |

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  • Anna Delin

    10/4/2010 8:21:07 PM |

    I would add fermented (lactic acid bacteria) herring as a potentially vitamin K2 rich food. This food is traditionally eaten in August in north Sweden. It has a horrible smell (H2S), but the taste reminds me of well matured cheese (think rural France).

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    11/3/2010 9:08:48 PM |

    Much of the developing research on vit K2 is coming from the laboratories of Drs. Vermeer, Geleijnse, and Schurgers at the University of Maastricht in the Netherlands, along with several laboratories in Japan, the champions of K2.

  • Richard the Foolhardy

    12/23/2010 7:05:29 PM |

    What labs can, or where/how can I, do a test for vitamin K2 level in the blood, preferrably with a report that distinguishes between MK-4 and MK-7?

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  • Janet

    7/6/2011 1:32:11 PM |

    Can anyone tell me where I might find Natto minus MSG?

    Thanks a bunch.

  • daniel ketchum

    7/13/2011 5:20:47 AM |

    Ok so k2 is produced by bacterial fermentation but of what nutrient? i have not been able to find any info on what nutrient the bacteria converts into k2 is it k1? or something else.. if its k1 then wouldn't fermentation of foods high in k1 produce the most k2? If so then is Natto loaded with k1?  Just curious because i just tarted making my own sauerkraut and lacto fermented vegetable juice...Have never even tasted Natto but i am going try it and if i like it well ill just have to start making that to...been making homemade curds and whey for awhile now and that should be a good source to. Also it seems that some of the fermented foods that have the most k2 (Natto, sauerkraut) in them are also very high in PQQ which is awesome!!!

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  • Alfina

    10/14/2011 12:04:16 AM |

    Found your question why googling K2 when testing positive for Factor V.  I wanted to begin taking vitamin K2 to help in the calcium buildup in my arteries but now found about about Factor V and cannot seem to find information online. Have you received a reply to this question from 2010?

  • GB

    11/18/2011 4:15:34 PM |

    A question: If you take a look (google them) at several websites (such as whfoods) where they look at foods that contain the vitamin K, it seems that whole foods such as Kale along with other leafy greens provide a huge amount of vitamin K - I was surprised to see that this was not mentioned among the various comments - rather supplements are mentioned first and foremost – is this because the Vitamin K and the Vitamin K2 are different? - doesn’t one come from the other? Can someone explain this as I will always try to do through diet first before resorting to supplements?

  • Dr. William Davis

    11/20/2011 3:59:11 PM |

    Yes, two different nutrients.

    K1 comes from green vegetables, K2 does not.

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