"I have never seen regression"

At a presentation at the American College of Cardiology meetings in New Orleans yesterday (March 27, 2007), Dr. Arthur Agatston declared "I have been doing CT for many years, and I have never seen regression."

Whooooaaaa. Wait a minute here. I have great respect for the work Dr. Agatston has done over the years. He is, after the originator of the scoring algorithm that allows us to score CT heart scans (though a more accurate measure, the volumetric score, is the one we often use behind closed doors because of modestly increased accuracy and reproducibility). His diet program, the South Beach Diet, has achieved enormous success and is indeed an effective approach for both weight loss and correction of many weight-related causes of heart disease.

But he has never seen regression? Why would this be when we see it all the time? When we see heart scan scores drop 30%, it's hard to believe that with some savvy he has never seen regression (drop in score).

I can only attribute the difference to the more intensive endpoints we advocate (e.g., 60-60-60 for lipid values); the incorporation of adjuncts like fish oil, vitamin D, l-arginine; attention to non-cholesterol issues and intensified treatments for each. I doubt that the populations we see differ substantially.

As much as I admire Dr. Agatston's accomplishments, I believe that he is behind the times on this issue. No regression is so starkly different from the Track Your Plaque experience. I believe that relying only on statin drugs and diet will slow but will not stop plaque growth. It will also rarely, if ever, drop your score.

Attention to detail and a little insight into better preventive strategies really pays off. While not everyone in the Track Your Plaque experience will drop their score, a substantial number do. Many more slow plaque growth dramatically. And, as time goes on, our track record gets stronger and stronger.

COURAGE to do better

The results of the long-awaited COURAGE Trial were announced today at the American College of Cardiology meetings in New Orleans.

In this trial, 2200 participants with stable coronary disease (i.e., not unstable, in which heart attack or death is imminent) were randomly assigned ("randomized") to either angioplassty/stent or "maximal medical therapy." Medical therapy means such things as aspirin, beta blocker drugs, and statin cholesterol drugs. There was virtually no difference between the groups in rate of heart attack and death from heart disease over a period of up to 7 years.

These results have caused a stir in the media and my colleagues, trying to sort out of the implications. However, I think there's one observation in particular worth making for those of us who tend to scoff at the conventional approach to coronary disease. That is, 1 of 5 people had a heart attack or died from heart disease in both groups. That's a lot. Even more ended up with a procedure (angioplasty, stent, or bypass). In other words, the "maximal medical therapy" instituted in participants was hardly a success. Though angioplasty and stenting failed to prove superiority, both really stunk. Both permitted a lot of catastrophes to occur.

"Maximal medical therapy," in other words, is a laughable concept. It doesn't include raising HDL, suppressing small LDL, reducing Lipoprotein(a), addressing inflammatory issues. It does not include omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil, nor does it address the severe degrees of vitamin D deficiency that are proving, in the Track Your Plaque experience, to be among the most potent causes of atherosclerotic plaque known. It includes a sad attempt at diet, as advocated by the American Heart Association, a diet that, in my view, causes heart disease and is distorted by the powerful political and financial influence of food manufacturers.

If the trial were to be done again, I'd like to see the "maximal medical therapy" arm be represented by a more effective program like the Track Your Plaque approach.

Value of a zero heart scan score

Margaret is 73. She's a very good 73. She loves children and works full-time in a daycare. She manages her own household, goes to dinner at least once each week with one or more of her adult children. She is slender and has never been in the hospital--until she developed an abnormal heart rhythm called atrial fibrillation.

Most people who develop atrial fibrillation do so with no immediate identifiable cause. However, Margaret has been a widow since her husband died 15 years ago of a heart attack. She was therefore especially frightened of any heart issues in her own health. Her doctor also raised the question of whether atrial fibrillation might represent the first hint of future heart attack.

So we advised a CT heart scan. Score: zero, or no detectable plaque whatsoever. This put Margaret's risk for heart attack as close to zero as humanly possible. (Nobody is truly at zero risk for heart attack for a number of reasons. One reason is that people do irrational things like take cocaine or amphetamines, or they take too much decongestant medication, all of which can trigger heart attack.)

The heart scan settled it. Margaret has the sort of atrial fibrillation which likely simply develops as a result of "wear and tear" on the heart's electrical impulse conducting system and it has nothing to do with coronary heart disease or heart attack.

As that MasterCard commercial goes: Cost of a heart scan: About $200. Peace of mind: priceless.

You're at the cutting edge

If you're a participant in the Track Your Plaque program for atherosclerotic plaque regression, you are at the cutting edge of health.

Few physicians give this issue any thought. Chances are, for instance, that if you were to bring up the subject of reversal of heart disease to your primary care physician, you'd get a dismissive "it's not possible," or " Yeah, it's possible but it's rare."

Ask a cardiologist and you might make a little more progress. He/she might tell you that Lipitor 80 mg per day or Crestor 40 mg per day might achieve a halt in plaque growth or a modest reduction of up to 5-6%. If they've tried this strategy, they would likely also tell you that hardly anybody can tolerate these doses for long due to muscle aches. I'd estimate that 1 of 10 of my colleagues would even be aware of these studies.

Both groups are, however, reasonably adept at diagnosing chest pain, an everyday occurrence in hospitals and offices. Chest pain, for them, is a whole lot more interesting. It holds the promise of acute catastrophe and all its excitement. It also holds the key to lots of hospital revenues. Did you know that 80% of all internal medicine physicians are now employees of hospitals? They're also commonly paid on an incentive basis. More revenues, more money.

Ask Drs. Dean Ornish or Caldwell Esselstyn about reversal of heart disease and they will tell you that a very low-fat diet (<10% of calories)can do it. That's true if you use a flawed test of coronary disease like heart catheterization (angiograms) or nuclear stress tests (Ornish calls them "SPECT"). It would be like judging the health of the plumbing in your house by the volume of water flowing out the spigot. It flows even when the pipes are loaded with rust.

In the Track Your Plaque experience, extreme low-fat diets (i.e., high wheat, corn, and rice diets) grotesquely exagerrate the small LDL particle size pattern, among the most potent triggers for coronary plaque growth. This approach also makes your abdomen get fatter and fatter and inches you closer to diabetes. Triglycerides go up, inflammation increases.

If you were able to measure the rust in the pipes, that would be a superior test. You can measure the "rust" in your "pipes," the atherosclerotic plaque in your coronary arteries, using two methods: CT heart scans or intracoronary ultrasound. Take your pick. I'd choose a heart scan. It's safe, accurate, inexpensive. I've performed many intracoronary ultrasounds for people in the midst of heart attacks or some other reason to go to the catheterization laboratory. But for well people, without symptoms, who are interested in identifying and tracking plaque? That's the place for heart scans.

In our program, 18-30% reductions in heart scan scores are common.

A stent--just in case

Burt came to me last week. He'd received a stent a few months earlier. He'd been feeling fine except for some fatigue. A nuclear stress test proved equivocal, with the question of an abnormal area of blood flow in the bottom (inferior wall) of the heart.

"The doctor said I had a 50% blockage. Even though it wasn't really severe, he said I'd be better off with a stent, just in case."

Just in case what? What justification could there be for implanting a stent "just in case"? (The artery that was stented did not correspond to the area of questionable poor blood flow on the nuclear stress test.)

Just in case of heart attack? If that's the case, what about the several 20 and 30% blockages Burt showed in other arteries? The cardiologist was apparently trying to prevent the plaque "rupture" that results in heart attack by covering it with a stent. Why stent just one when there were at least 7 other plaques with potential for rupture?

That's the problem. And that's why stents do not prevent heart attack (unless the stent is implanted in the midst of heart attack, when the rupturing plaque declares itself.) Of course, when no plaque is in the midst of rupturing, as with Burt, there's no way to predict which plaque will do so in future. Since only one plaque was stented, there is a 7 out of 8 chance (87.5%) that the wrong plaque was chosen. And that's assuming that there aren't plaques not detected by catheterization angiogram; there commonly are. The odds that the right plaque was chosen would be even lower.

In other words, stenting one blockage that is slightly more "severely blocked" in the hopes of preventing heart attack is folly. If it's not resulting in symptoms and blood flow is not clearly reduced, a stent can not be used to prevent plaque rupture. A stent is not a device to be used prophylactically. It is especially silly when an approach like ours is followed, since plague progession is a stoppable process.

Note: This issue is distinct from the one in which symptoms and/or an abnormal stress test show clearly reduced blood flow and flow is restored by implantation of a stent. While some controversies exist here, as well, a stent implanted under these circumstances may indeed provide some benefit.

How will you know your score dropped?

This issue came up twice this week.

Bill is a busy accountant. Two years ago, just after the tumult of the 2005 tax season was over, he got a CT heart scan. His score: 398. At age 53, this was a significant score. His internist did the usual: prescribed a statin (Zocor), told him to cut the fat in his diet, and be sure to exercise. (Yawn.)

Since then, Bill quit preparing tax returns and migrated to a less harried job in corporate accounting. It took two years since his heart scan for Bill to start thinking that perhaps his doctor's advice wasn't enough. If it was, he realized, everyone on a statin drug who made these minimal lifestyle changes would be cured of heart attack risk. Clearly not the case.

So Bill enrolled in the Track Your Plaque program. Our first step: Get another heart scan.

Bill was surprised. "Why another scan? I already had one!"

I explained to Bill that atherosclerotic plaque is like money: it grows in percentages, just like money in a bank account or in a mutual fund. If, for instance, you deposit $500 in a mutual fund and it yields 5% return, then after one year you will have $550. One year later, you will have 5% x $550, or $605. Another year: $665. In other words, growth is not 10% of the original amount you deposited. Growth is compounded, year over year. That's why money, when compounded, can grow so quickly.

Atherosclerotic plaque and your CT heart scan score do the same thing: they grow by a percentage of the current plaque quantity. In fact, we use the compound interest equation to calculate the annualized rate of plaque growth. But plaque grows at the extraordinary rate of 30% per year, on average. Imagine that was the rate of return on your money. You'd be the richest man or woman on earth.

Back to Bill. Now Bill, in his defense, was on a statin drug and did make modest efforts towards a (mis-guided) low-fat diet and walking four days per week. If, on a second CT heart scan, his score was:

398--No change. That's a success, since the expected rate of increase of 30% has been stopped. However, on his current program, this is highly unlikely. (I've seen it happen just once ever out of about 2000 people.)

250--Pop the cork on your champagne, because Bill needs to celebrate. He has substantially reversed his plaque. Highly unlikely on the current effort.

525 --The score is higher by 30%, so it has slowed, but it surely hasn't stopped. This is the most typical result on the sort of program Bill is following.

The message: Don't delay after your first heart scan score. It plaque grows like money with a huge return, there's no time like the present to take the steps to regain control.

Firefighters Face Added Risk of Fatal Heart Attack

Firefighters are twice as likely to die from a heart attack in the line of duty than are policemen, and three times more likely than EMTs.

That's among the headlines run today because of a report in the New England Journal of Medicine documenting a dramatically higher risk for heart attack for fire fighters putting out fires. The above headline is from an excellent report run on NPR radio. You can listen to the webcast at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9047656.

The story sparked comments from experts insisting that all fire fighters should have physicals, should be in better physical condition, should be covered by health insurance (the NPR report said that 1 out of 4 fire fighters lack health insurance). Judging from the indisputable risk firefighters encounter, these are all good ideas.

But if you've been following my blog or the Track Your Plaque program, you know that physicals alone are hopeless exercises for identifying hidden heart disease. Among the solutions: identify whether or not heart disease is present in the first place--do a CT heart scan.

In fact, several local fire companies in my area have done just that: insisting that all firefighters undergo a heart scan. When groups of people like firefighters arrange for heart scans, they gain the advantage of doing so en masse, thereby allowing many scan centers to offer a dramatically reduced price to the city, town, or village that is paying for them. I've even seen many firefighters scanned at no cost.

It would also help to have health insurance, be physically fit, and have a stress test (an exception to my view that stress tests are also useless to screen asymptomatic people for heart disease). But a CT heart scan would settle the question quickly, easily, undeniably, and inexpensively.

Prophylactic bypass surgery?

This question comes up around once a week:

My CT heart scan score is ____. Wouldn't I be better off just getting a bypass (or stent, etc.) and getting it over with? If I know that heart attack is in my future, why not just get it over with?

The most recent source of this question was the wife of a patient. Jack had a heart scan score of 92 in 2005. He made very little effort to correct his causes, permitting pre-diabetic patterns to persist, failed to correct vitamin D, etc. and a repeat heart scan score showed a dramatic rise to 264.

Jack's wife asked whether he should just have a bypass.

There are several problems with this line of reasoning:

1) Bypass surgery does not reduce the long term risk for heart attack.

2) The risk of bypass surgery often outweighs the risk of an asymptomatic heart scan score.

3) Bypass surgery is a temporary "fix," a fancy Band Aid for a disease that progresses after the procedure. One bypass typically prompts another, and another...

4) Bypassing arteries that have vigorous blood flow often causes the bypass graft to not "take" and close within the first few days.


Thankfully, nobody in his right mind has proposed that we perform prophylactic bypass operations.

Of course, hospitals and surgeons would jump at the chance to perform procedures in anybody with some threshhold heart scan score. It would double or triple their business overnight. At $70,000 or more per procedure, they would dance in glee. Of course, you and I would pay for their new burst of wealth by a sharp increase in our health insurance premiums. Not only that, the people who underwent the procedure would not benefit.

Lipitor 80 mg

I'm seeing more and more people taking 80 mg of Lipitor per day. For the most part, these are people who come in for another opinion after a stent or heart attack and are prescribed the drug during their hospitalization.

This practice is based on the results of the PROVE IT-TIMI 22 (PRavastatin Or atorVastatin Evaluation and Infection Therapy-Thrombolysis In Myocardial Infarction) trial, and the Reversal of Atherosclerosis with Aggressive Lipid Lowering (REVERSAL) trial, both reported in 2005. In the PROVE IT Trial, 4,000 people experiencing heart attacks were treated with Lipitor (atorvastatin), 80 mg, or Pravachol (pravastatin), 40 mg. There was a reduction in events like recurrent heart attack from 13.1% in the Pravachol group to 9.6% in the Lipitor group. In the REVERSAL Trial, the Lipitor group also showed no plaque growth compared to the Pravachol group, which did progress, with disease tracked by intracoronary ultrasound.

I believe that many of my colleagues took the bait. In a half-hearted effort to reduce events and trend towards better coronary plaque control, writing a prescription for 80 mg rather than a lower dose has become increasingly popular.

Some problems: Despite the favorable tolerance to high dose Lipitor in these trials, I don't know anybody who can tolerate 80 mg per day for more than a few months in real life. In my experience, people inevitably end up with intolerable muscle aches.

Also, I believe it is folly to believe that we can regress coronary plaque on a broad scale by just using one drug that addresses only a single cause (i.e., LDL cholesterol). Yes, drug companies would argue that the statin drugs are so wonderful because of their so-called "pleiotropic", or non-lipid, effects like reducing inflammation. I have seen regression of plaque once using Lipitor alone. We struggle to reduce coronary plaque using a multi-faceted approach. It is highly unlikely that Lipitor alone at a 80 mg dose will be sufficient in most people to regress plaque. How about lipoprotein(a)? Or vitamin D deficiency? Lipitor has no effect on these patterns and people do not regress just by taking statin agents.

Orlistat for weight loss

In early February, the FDA approved orlistat, formerly known as prescription Xenical, for over-the-counter sale. Orlistat is a blocker of fat absorption.

The new OTC version will be called "Alli" (pronounced like "ally") and will come at a dose of 60 mg to be taken three times a day with meals. Prescription Xenical came as a 120 mg tablet. However, the company claims that the reduced dose sacrifices only 5% in reduced fat absorption, dropping from 30% with Xenical to 25% with Alli. It will cost in the neighborhood of $1 to $2 per day, or $30-60 per month, far less expensive than the $110-150 for the prescription form.

Does it work? Is it worth the money? Clinical trials document around 5-10 lbs lost over a 3 to 6 month period, 50% greater than using diet and exercise alone.

Our experience is that it works, though inconsistently. Results depend heavily on how reliant you are on fat calories. If you were to follow a low-fat diet while on the drug, you likely will lose little or no weight, since there's little fat absorption to block. However, I have witnessed more substantial weight loss of 10-20 lbs. in people who follow a higher fat intake in their diet, e.g., a traditional American diet. However, these people gain the weight back immediately because they've made no effort to modify food choices.

It is messy. Even though the clinical trials claims modest inconvenient effects like gas and greasy stools, I have found that it is, without fail, a very annoying product that results in crampiness and frequent messy stools in nearly everybody.

The company has created a glitzy website that you can view at www.myalli.com and promises to provide a personalized program and support for registrants when it is up and running by summer 2007.
I think that's a good idea, since the drug itself is no more than a temporary fix unless it's combined with long-term diet changes. However, the website, I believe, oversells the value of the drug with a drug company's usual over-the-top hints and innuendoes without actually coming out with straight pitches of the truth.

Beware of the vitamin D-blocking effect of Orlistat. The period of time you take it may be a time to resort to some modest sun exposure (10-15 minutes; be careful not to burn), rather than than oil-based vitamin D capsules, in order to avoid the inevitable vitamin D plunge in blood level.

I am not a fan of orlistat, having seen it tried many times with minimal success. However, it is another option for those who are really struggling. Personally, I would try fasting or some of the other strategies we've detailed on the www.cureality.com website before I resorted to orlistat.
Genetic incompatibility

Genetic incompatibility

Peter has lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a), a genetic pattern shared by 11% of Americans.

It means that Peter inherited a gene that codes for a protein, called apoprotein(a), that attaches to LDL particles, forming the combined particle Lp(a). It also means that his overall pattern responds well to a high-fat, high-protein, low-carbohydrate diet: The small LDL particles that accompany Lp(a) over 90% of the time are reduced, Lp(a) itself is modestly reduced, other abnormalities like high triglycerides (that facilitate Lp(a)'s adverse effects) are corrected. Small LDL particles are, by the way, part of the genetic "package" of Lp(a) in most carriers.

Peter also has another gene for Apo E4, another genetically-determined pattern shared by 19% of Americans. (Another 2% of Americans have two "doses" of Apo E4, i.e., they are homozygotes for E4.) This means that the Apo E protein, normally responsible for liver uptake and disposal of lipoproteins (especially VLDL), is defective. In people with Apo E4, the higher the fat intake, the more LDL particles accumulate. (The explanation for this effect is not entirely clear, but it may represent excessive defective Apo E-enriched VLDL that competes with LDL for liver uptake.) People with Apo E4 therefore drop LDL (and LDL particle number and apoprotein B) with reductions in fat intake.

This is a genetic rock-and-a-hard-place, or what I call a genetic incompatibility. If Peter increases fat and reduces carbohydrates to reduce Lp(a)/small LDL, then LDL measures like LDL particle number, apoprotein B, and LDL cholesterol will increase. Paradoxically, sometimes small LDL particles will even increase in some genetically predisposed people.

If Peter decreases fat and increases carbohydrates, LDL particle number, apoprotein B, and LDL cholesterol will decrease, but the proportion of small LDL will increase and Lp(a) may increase.

Thankfully, such "genetic incompatibilities" are uncommon. In my large practice, for instance, I have about 5 such people.

The message: If you witness paradoxic responses that don't make sense or follow the usual pattern, e.g., reductions in LDL particle number, apoprotein B, and small LDL with reductions in their dietary triggers (i.e., carbohydrates, especially wheat), then consider a competing genetic trait such as Apo E4.

Comments (29) -

  • Anonymous

    1/10/2011 5:57:47 PM |

    How do you test for it?

    Nina

  • Anonymous

    1/10/2011 7:35:25 PM |

    I am APOE 3/4.

    1. When you say fat is not good, do you mean all fats, or does the research indicate that MUFA's are helpful? Or PUFA's

    2. Does Niacin affect the negative impact of the APOE 4?

    3. Is it wise with APOE 4 to eat low fat, high carb? And take the niacin, and increase exercise? Or better to stay low carb higher fat and use the niacin?

    Thank you.

  • Anonymous

    1/10/2011 8:35:06 PM |

    General question. For the past year I've been trying to correct my lipid levels. One thing i've done for lunch every day is to make a shake with an apple, banana and orange, plus add a scoop of protein powder from Sam's Club. My triglycerides have skyrocketed even with taking 2 grams fish oil, healthy diet, etc. Should I not each so much fruit every day? Thanks.

  • David

    1/10/2011 9:30:59 PM |

    Anon,

    That's a lot of fruit. Add it up, and assuming that you're eating medium/average sizes of those three fruits, you're drinking down almost 50 grams of sugar at every lunch (not including the starch in the banana, which also breaks down into glucose). The fructose alone adds up to about 24 grams, which is excessive, in my view, and I don't think there's any mystery as to why your triglycerides have skyrocketed. Back off on the fruit. Eat it only occasionally, and/or pick low-fructose varieties like berries.

    David

  • David

    1/10/2011 9:38:32 PM |

    P.S. As a point of reference, a can of Coca-Cola has 23 grams of fructose.

  • Travis Culp

    1/10/2011 10:40:45 PM |

    If those were the only carbs that he's eating for the entire day, it's not that bad, although I would split it up so that he's eating a piece of fruit with each meal. There's no way someone would go from the SAD to paleo with 3 pieces of fruit and have triglycerides shoot up as a result. It would be a dramatic decrease in average blood glucose and carb intake.

  • Dr. William Davis

    1/10/2011 11:23:05 PM |

    Nina--

    Apoprotein E needs to be specified, usually (though not necessarily) with lipoprotein analysis.


    Anonymous with apo E questions--

    We will be covering this issue in more detail on the Track Your Plaque website near-future (www.trackyourplaque.com).

  • Patricia

    1/11/2011 3:12:40 AM |

    @Travis Culp

    Concerning Anonymous you say, "If those were the only carbs that he's eating for the entire day, it's not that bad."

    Apparently for Anonymous it *is* that bad or his trigs would not have "skyrocketed."  Clearly what he means by "healthy diet" is suspect if he believed a fructose bomb for lunch was a good idea whilst "trying to correct my lipid levels."  So, perhaps he is eating oatmeal and whole wheat bread as part of the "healthy diet" as well, thus contributing even more to said skyrocketing triglycerides.  

    However, given what he actually wrote, IMHO David's comments are spot on.

    Fruit is often and easily given a pass as "healthy" when it is definitely not, particularly vis-a-vis triglycerides.

  • Anonymous

    1/11/2011 3:56:06 PM |

    This last post by Dr. Davis leads to a question about the genetic profile of our blog community?

    And I would love to be wrong about my logic.

    Here we go.

    Fats are apparently not good for APOE 4's which Dr Davis offers is about 19 per cent of general population. Fats make an APOE 4 worse.

    But isn't the reader of this blog more likely to be an APOE 4 than 1 in five, since they are far more likely to have lipid disorders and heart plaque?

    Is it not more likely our blog population has a higer percentage of APOE 4's or 2's than the general population?  So, the advice should tilt toward those genetics not the cardio protected 3/3 who should eat more fats?


    Is this blog's "eat more fats, more nuts"  advice  targeted at the least likely patients to be here--meaning the APOE 3/3 who really dont have as much plaque? The ones who lipids genetics are normal and cardio protective anyway.

    So should not the advice be tilted the other way around, and not toward the rarer reader and blogger who is normal 3/3 who should eat more fats? But toward the rarer (in general population) but more likely reader in a lipid disordered population who should not eat more fats?

    Would it be more helpful to presume that the reader is a APOE 4or AOPE 2?

    And shouldn't every one here get tested because if we are APOE 4 then we could be making ourselves worse by eating more fats? Our attempts at self protection could be hurting us badly?

    Is this a good question? Or two?

    Does this make sense?

  • Onschedule

    1/11/2011 5:10:52 PM |

    @Anonymous regarding APOE 4 and this blog population:

    Dr. Davis writes: "Thankfully, such "genetic incompatibilities" are uncommon. In my large practice, for instance, I have about 5 such people."

    I would expect the population of Dr. Davis blog readers who have this genetic incompatibility to be less, not more, than this ratio. Certainly Dr. Davis's patients are "more likely to have lipid disorders and heart plaque" than the more random pool of readers. Dr. Davis's patients are his patients because they have heart-related issues. The population of blog readers, on the other hand, likely includes people interested in avoiding future heart problems, people with a general interest in health, etc. - all of which would tend to lower the ratio of people with these genetic incompatibilities who read this blog...

  • Anonymous

    1/11/2011 6:05:26 PM |

    Dear Onschedule:

    But if 19 per cent have APOE 4 and it causes plaque issues, why would Dr Davis have only  5 patients in many years in such a huge patient population?  

    Why wouldn't he have at least 19 per cent? 1 in 5?

    Why would it be rare in a heart doctor's office...... and 19 per cent, which is not rare at all, in the general population?

    Am I misunderstanding this?

    Does Dr. Davis test every patient for APOE ?  

    If APOE 4 causes lipids issues and plaque, I tend to think there would be lots of heart patients with APOE 4 genes, not less in his pool.  But either way, at least somewhere near 19 per cent, right?

    Unless I misunderstand the math?

  • Anonymous

    1/11/2011 6:13:49 PM |

    OOPS

    I amend my own comment about how common the "APOE 4 dont eat fats" patients ought to be in this blog population. It is even less rare than we thought !

    I was thinking that the APOE 4 was at 19 per cent....but Dr. Davis actually states 21 per cent.

    So, my argument has more weight, not less, with the corrected percentage. APOE 4 is not rare if 21 per cent have it.

    Now I am confused by this.

    Any help?

    Why wouldnt this reader blog have the same 21 per cent as the general population, and actually more if we figure that lipid disorders ( very high in APOE 4's) drive more to this site than general.

    " Peter also has another gene for Apo E4, another genetically-determined pattern shared by 19% of Americans. (Another 2% of Americans have two "doses" of Apo E4, i.e., they are homozygotes for E4.)"

  • David

    1/11/2011 6:57:16 PM |

    Dr. Davis wasn't saying that he only has 5 patients who are ApoE4. He was saying that he only has 5 patients who have the specific combination of ApoE4 with this particular kind of Lp(a) pattern.

  • Gene K

    1/12/2011 4:50:46 AM |

    I would like to hear what other people with ApoE 4 have to eat. I am now both low carb and low fat. Still consuming a handful of almonds a day, hummus, and natto - these are not low-fat foods, so my next NMR won't be pretty. Also, should fish oil be counted towards daily fat intake?

  • Anonymous

    1/12/2011 6:49:30 PM |

    Gene asks a great question.

    I too would love to know what ApoE 4's should eat. Pufa, mufa, no fats?

    No carbs?

    Does post exercise mitigate the harm after eating offending foods?

    Thanks

  • Gene K

    1/13/2011 5:04:58 AM |

    My understanding is that PUFA or MUFA makes no difference in this case as long as it is fat (I am talking about those with ApoE 4 here). I would rather see somebody more qualified to comment on this, though.

    As to mitigating the effect of offending foods after exercise, you'll have to prick your finger to find out. At least it is what I have gathered from posts and discussions on this blog.

    In my pre-TYP life, I absorbed all existing advice on diet and exercise for people with risk factors for heart disease. It is commonly believed that there is a 30-40 min-long carbohydrate window after an intensive exercise session, during which you can and should consume carbohydrates. I am not qualified to argue this point, but to know your specific response, you should check your BG.

    For one, I checked my BG to see whether I can eat a spaghetti squash dinner. One night (I), I did it after gym, and next night (II) without gym, but after a 25-min walk from the train station. The meal was the same both nights. Results:

    (I) Before dinner: 84, 1hr PP: 114
    (II) 88 and 129 respectively.

    My conclusion: Although exercise helps, I should avoid this food.

  • Anonymous

    1/13/2011 2:27:53 PM |

    Wow! anonymous of Jan 11, 2011.  I totally get you! I was thinking the same.  I have had high cholesterol since my eary 20's (now in my 40's)at times >350 with my ldl always high triglycerides never too bad. That puzzled my doctors.  All my doctors have said that I need to take statins or I will die basically. Thought I ate well.  But now I know I could have been eating wrong all these yrs!? Tried a McDougall 2 months ago, but thought it was way too much carbs. No nuts, oils or fish. Felt ok then, crappy as time went on.. Put fish/nuts back in my diet and Surprise, I felt better. But now, after reading @ that APOE stuff, I wonder should I go back to strick vegetarian or not?? I guess I have to get some test first to determine what my break down is, right? I have always wondered since my 20's if this is going to b the year of the big one?  I have a 2 yr old and want to b around for a long time.  My grandfather and Great grandfather live into 90's. Grandma, @78-80. But on my other side, My mom 1st husband(my biological dad) had quadrupal bybass at 42. What test should i get it seems you could be screwed either way you eat, depending on your genetics. thanks

  • Anonymous

    1/13/2011 6:09:09 PM |

    Dear Anon Said:

    With high levels so early, a good idea to ask MD about niacin, statins dont work on ApoE 4.s very well. I dont take them.

    I do exercise after meals, and use pysillium, 1k niaspan, and increase vegetable sources of Omega 3, since some research says that fish oil is not as useful with ApoE 4's either, but I still take fish 2k, and D3 2k daily. Ground flax seed is good source of veg omega3.

    My brother is not just 4/3 but 4/4.

    Would love to see others comment, since we are 21per cent of population.

    Good luck,

    Thanks.

  • Anonymous

    1/13/2011 9:14:07 PM |

    Thanks. In my 20s...My Dr said he had never seen someone so young with my #'s.  Said he would not give Statins because they didnt know the effects on young persons.  
      In 30's...Have been on Lipitor in the past. My Drs said Niacin wouldnt lower it enough.  Lipitor did not do much. It < my ldl at first then it started to lower my hdl too. Remember my triglycerides were never high normal or lower even.  I felt weird/achy on it with brain fog or general stupor feeling. I stopped in my 30's.  Felt better. Found tons of info against statins on internet.
      Also told them a long time ago, my great aunt, my mother and my uncle(moms bro)had a < thyroid.  But as long as my numbers come out ok, thats as far as they go here.  I think I have always been "tweeked" a bit low. Have cold hands/feet, dry hair/skin, hard to very lose weight,tired ect...

    In my 40's...Had my daughter @2yrs ago and Drs wanted me to try Crestor after delivery. I Said No. I know there is a better way. So, I have been trying to do a cross between Asian/Medittarean/Jen's common sense. Here it is...

      I eat fruit/veggies with almost fish exclusively. Occasionally some turkey/chicken real lean.
      Stopped all coffee, drink tea black/green brewed only.
      Stopped all the phoney crap.No artificial sweetners. No hydrogenated oils ect..
      Stopped eating quick oats yrs ago, now trying coarse grind or the steel cut. I mix it with barley adn rye flakes. Use lots of flaxseed in anything I can.
      For a snack I eat a handful of nuts w/o salt mixed with fruit like raisens/cranberries no sugar or the least I can find.
      In the process of stopping wheat products. Almost impossible to find though. Switched to rice/potatoes but exclusively but now I am confused, Dr. Davis says that might b taboo too? Thought rice is a staple in Japan? Hmm..
      Take 1 fishoil High omega3 Sams club daily. And 2-3 times a week starting this winter, a couple 1-3tsp of cod liver oil every other day.
       Bought a bottle of Sloniacin to try if all this doesnt work. I just have to find a doc that will do the right test for lipids. That is the APOE Correct?? Please tell me if I am wrong.  They don't do particle size, always just the basic cholesterol test.  
      Jen in Minnesota

  • sailormom

    1/14/2011 1:53:18 AM |

    very interesting!  My endo thinks I have some genetic cause for high ldl  (ldl particle # > 2000, but HDL  is 90 and trig around 40).  On low carb high fat diet and my ldl just goes up and dr wants me on a statin.  so far I have resisted as I want to try diet/exercise (my weight is at the high range of normal).  I have no wheat, potatoes, rice, sugar etc -- basically fish, fowl, vegetables and dairy (minimal fruit) and nothing proocessed but have not seen any change in lipid profile.  lp(a) is normal so does this sound like  an APOE variant?  What is the best diet?

  • Onschedule

    1/14/2011 1:56:09 AM |

    @Jen in Minnesota

    Have you had a recent heart scan? If not, getting one would give you a baseline with which to compare the effects of future dietary strategies. It will also give you peace of mind when you find that your calcium score (if any) is holding steady or decreasing. Tracking lipids without the scan, IMHO, is less satisfying and less useful.

  • Dr. William Davis

    1/14/2011 3:08:33 AM |

    I hear the several frustrated comments here.

    The key is to:

    1) be armed with information when talking with your healthcare provider. Just asking about apo E raises the bar considerably.

    2) Start to think about individualized health, i.e., diet fine-tuned to your genetic susceptibilities. There is not a true one-size-fits-all diet approach. Some tweaking is required for various genetic patterns, largely determined by apo E genetic type.

  • Anonymous

    1/14/2011 5:24:19 PM |

    Thanks all, and Dr. Davis...
       It's convincing the Docs that you should get specific tests, beyond the basics. (like total thyroid breakdown, APOE lipids testing, heart scan, Vit D testing).
      At a University Hosp I asked my gp 2-3 yrs ago if I could get a scan to clear up all this cholesterol business to check 4 plack? Said hosp wouldnt allow it. I would have had to private pay everything,(& u can't get one w/o recommendation anyway). Asked the same thing over 10 yrs ago to my clinic dr. Said same thing. It depends if your insurance will cover too. Cant get on partners insurance for family coverage, so I have to pay for all tests w/a high deductable too.
      No big deal though...It is great u can get tests on your own now. Will look into that more, maybe I will save up or join something like "Track your Plack".  Looks like I can maybe get some sort of test for lipids.
    If my breakdown comes out good, and I eat well already, plus take Vit D; then maybe they have had me worried unecessarily for 20 yrs!!HaHa...
    Take care Jen in Mn

  • Kurt

    1/16/2011 4:14:22 PM |

    You've written in the past about the failure of low fat diets to reduce plaque, so I was surprised to read that 19% of people benefit from eating less fat (assuming they don't replace fat with grains). I believe I'm one, because through trial and error - and multiple cholesterol tests - I've found that the less fat I eat, the lower my LDL reading.

  • Anonymous

    1/18/2011 2:01:10 AM |

    Kurt: and then Gene:

    Just wanted to point out---it's not 19 percent, it is 21. That means 1 in 5 should not follow the "increase your fats diet." And they may in fact not be harmed by diets that harm other gene profiles.

    Sure would like to know if niacin balances this all out?

    Keep in mind that ApoE 4 is a very controversial gene test---it is sometimes called the Alzheimers gene, mistakenly; and there is a lot of debate about the ethics of such a test for fear of marking people for a certain fate. Would suggest maybe discuss and research before checking, but it too is a rock and hard place choice.

    "Peter also has another gene for Apo E4, another genetically-determined pattern shared by 19% of Americans. (Another 2% of Americans have two "doses" of Apo E4, i.e., they are homozygotes for E4.)"

    Gene: Thank you so much for posting, I am grateful for freeback and input on this. Suggest trying the exercise after not before you eat. The science says the benefits are about post prandial exercise. I would love to see your results.

  • Lucy

    1/18/2011 2:26:36 AM |

    28 y/o ApoE 3/4 here.  Haven't been tested for Lp(a) yet, but my mom has it and she's also a 3/4.  Definitely frustrated with all the back and forth on whether I should do LC/HF or veg.  Started taking niacin last year, but I'd really like to know what to do with the diet.

    Dr. Davis-  Do you recommend ApoE 4's take fish oil, and if so how much?  I've heart conflicting info.

  • Anonymous

    1/18/2011 2:34:08 PM |

    Lucy:

    Great question !

    Thank you for asking Dr. Davis about fish oil and ApoE 4's. I too take fish oil and wonder if I am making it worse.

  • Gene K

    1/23/2011 5:37:08 AM |

    @Anon

    The science says the benefits are about post prandial exercise.

    Immediate benefits will depend on the kind and amount of food consumed, the type, duration, and intensity of the exercise, and how soon after eating you exercise.

    There are also long-term benefits from regular exercise, and I am not sure you can reduce them to whether you eat and then exercise or exercise and then eat.

    I prefer to have a light meal within 1hr before a workout, and a good meal with lots of protein after my workout. My typical workout includes 30 min cardio + strength resistance the slow burn style.

    Disclaimer. The opinion is my own, and I am not an exercise scientist.

  • Dr. Daniel Chong

    1/24/2013 5:31:02 PM |

    In a case like this, I would continue on a plant based, low fat diet to combat Apo E4, then add in the following to combat the Lp(a) issue:
    Vitamin C titrated to bowel tolerance
    Proline
    Lysine
    Guggul
    Niacin

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