Calculus of the cardiologist

I call this the "calculus of the cardiologist":

Heart procedures = big money

More procedures = more big money

You do the math. If you do more procedures, you get more money.
What if your patients don't need more procedures? That's easy. You lower the bar on reasons to do procedures. You scare the pants off people and lead them to think that all heart disease or questions about heart disease are potentially life-threatening. You could even appear to be doing the patient a big favor. "My Lord! This is potentially dangerous. We need to perform a procedure without delay!"

There are incentives beyond direct cash payment. A patient of mine today showed me a memo to employees in his company that showed why certain hospitals are targeted for care. The criteria for choosing centers was based on number of procedures performed. In other words, the more procedures performed at a hospital, the more procedures will be directed there. Of course, this makes sense at some level. More procedures can also mean greater skill.

But have we lost sight of the fact that the mission is not more procedures and more money, but to get rid of a disease? If the intensity of effort devoted to heart procedures were re-directed to early detection, prevention, and reversal of disease, we'd have half the hospitals we now have. We'd also chop a huge chunk out of the national healthcare budget.

Lipoprotein(a) treatment alternatives

A question from a reader:


Two years ago, my doctor recommended a comprehensive lipid screening because both of my parents had heart disease. My only blood component way out of line was LP (a) [lipoprotein(a)]. It was 130. According to the lab that conducted the screening, Berkeley Heart Lab, a level above 30 should be cause for concern. I was stunned that mine was more than quadruple the danger level.

I began taking two grams [2000 mg] of niacin a day in addition to the Lipitor I was already taking. The next reading, a few months later, was 87. Over a period of about 18 months, I had a total of four readings from Berkley Heart Lab. My LP (a) fluctuated in the 80-130 range – still way above normal. My doctor said there was little else I could do to control it.

That doctor has since retired. I now see another doctor who uses a different lab. My first LP (a) reading with him a few months ago was 17, which is normal. I am still taking the same amount of niacin and Lipitor and I can’t think of anything that would account for the huge discrepancy. I’m going to have another test again soon.

Is one of the labs giving erroneous readings? If so, how can I tell which? If Berkeley Heart Lab is correct, is there anything I can do about my increased coronary risk due to high LP (a)?

Tom D.

Tom's frustration on the variation of Lp(a) is due to the fact that laboratories run the Lp(a) test by several different techniques and will generate tremendous variation in values. The key is to stick to the same measure over and over from the same lab, else you'll be terribly confused and frustrated. Tom essentially should ignore the value obtained that was unexpectedly low.

Another issue: Lp(a) is a turtle. It responds very slowly. In fact, we rarely check it more than once or twice a year. Check it too soon after a treatment change and it won't fully reflect the effect. You've got to wait at least several months before re-checking.

How about treatment alternatives? They are:

--More niacin. Not my favorite choice, since niacin >2000 mg per day begins to generate more side-effects, but it is a choice. You can go to 4000-5000 per day, but only with your doctor's supervision due to liver effects.

--Testosterone for males. We use topical testosterone from Women's International Pharmacy in Madison, Wisconson. Prescription patches like Testim are also effective.

--Estrogen for females. This is less "clean" than testosterone, introducing questions about endometrial and breast cancer risk, but it is a choice.

--DHEA--A small effect but every little bit can help. We use 25-50 mg per day, depending on blood levels and only if you're 45 years old or older.

--l-carnitine--In my experience, a small effect. It requires 2000 mg per day, which is expensive. Sometimes, an expected large effect develops, so it's worth a try if it fits in your budget.

--Fibrates--These are the drugs Tricor and Lopid. I don't like these agents very much because I think they're weak, including the effect on Lp(a) reduction. But they are choices for you and your doctor.

Lastly, you can simply be guided by your heart scan score. For example, if Tom's initial heart scan score is 200, and he continues his current program and one year later his score is 300, then alternative treatments are worth considering. But what if Tom's score is 189--he's regressed his coronary plaque. Then, who cares what his Lp(a) is?

Another issue to keep in mind is that, in the presence of Lp(a), keeping LDL to very low numbers (e.g., 60 mg/dl) may added value in preventing coronary plaque growth.

Trapped in a low-fat world

If you would like to...

--Reduce (good) HDL

--Raise triglycerides, sometimes by hundreds of points

--Raise blood sugar into the pre-diabetic range

--Raise blood pressure

--Accelerate coronary plaque growth

then go on a low-fat diet like the one promoted by long-time super low-fat advocate, Dr. Dean Ornish. Every day I have to educate patients that a low-fat diet as advocated by Dr. Ornish is a destructive, counter-productive process that makes coronary plaque grow and increases your heart scan score.

If you want to gain control over coronary plaque, do not follow the Ornish program or anything resembling it. The Ornish program is a dead end.

Instead, the crucial components of a healthy diet for plaque control are:

--Low saturated and hydrogenated fat, but not low all fats.

--High monounsaturated and omega-3 fats

--Low glycemic index (i.e., slow sugar release)

--High fiber

That simple. An excellent program to put these limits to practical use is the South Beach Diet. Or, follow the more detailed guidelines on the Track Your Plaque website (open content section).

Blame the niacin

Despite the fact that niacin is:

1) A vitamin--vitamin B3

2) One of the oldest cholesterol-reducing agents around with a long-standing track record of effectiveness and safety

3) Available as a prescription drug as well as a variety of "nutritional supplements"

most physicians remains shockingly unaware of its benefits, effects, and side-effects. Most, in fact, are either ignorant or frightened of advising their patients on niacin use. As a result, I commonly have to tell my patients to resume the niacin that their primary care physician has (wrongly) stopped because of itchy feet, grumpiness, groin rash, urinary tract infections, nightmares, diarrhea, hair loss, runny nose, etc. All of these are REAL reasons doctors have advised patients to stop niacin (though none were actually due to niacin).

Is niacin really that troublesome? No, it's not. In fact, if used properly, it's among the most effective and safe tools available for correction of low HDL, small LDL and other triglyceride-containing lipoproteins, lipoprotein(a), and dramatic reduction of heart attack risk. If added to a statin agent, the heart attack risk reduction can approach 90%.

Statins are just too easy for doctors to prescribe. Niacin, on the other hand, requires a good 15-20 minutes to describe how to use it. It could generate an occasional phone call from a patient who struggles with the annoying but largely harmless and temporary "hot-flush" feeling, a lot like a hot blush. Given a choice, most doctors would simply choose not to be bothered. For this reason, I'll commonly see many, many people with uncorrected low HDLs and other patterns.

Have a serious discussion and press for confident answers if you find your doctor reflexively telling you that the wart on your thumb should be blamed on niacin.

Here are the steps we advise that really make taking niacin easy and tolerable:

1) Take with dinner.

2) Take with 2 extra glasses of water. If you experience the hot-flush later on, drink an additional 2 8-12 oz glasses of water i.e., a total of 16-24 oz). Extra hydration is extremely effective for blocking the hot-flush.

3) Take a 325 mg, uncoated aspirin. This is only necessary in the beginning or with any increase in dose, rarely chronically for any length of time.


This is not to say that there aren't occasional people who are truly and genuinely intolerant to niacin. It does happen. But those people are a small minority, less than 5% of people in my experience. Niacin is far more effective and safe than most physicians would have you believe.

Eat fish three times a day

Patients commonly ask, "Why can't I get vitamin D from food? I drink milk and eat fish."

They're absolutely right: both vitamin D and some oily fish contain vitamin D. However, it's a matter of quantity. An 8 oz. glass of milk contains 100 units of vitamin D (at least it's supposed to; this is not always true). A serving of oily fish like salmon or herring may contain up to 400 units. Thus, if you ate fish three times a day like the Eskimos or the Inuit, you might obtain sufficient vitamin D to prevent the broad and alarming spectrum of phenomena associated with deficiency.

I suspect that most people don't want to eat fish three times a day, nor drink the 20 to 50 glasses of milk per day that would be required to obtain a truly healthy quantity of vitamin D.

The vocal and outspoken Dr. John Cannell of the Vitamin D Council (www.vitamindcouncil.com) has written eloquently on the potential relationship between influenza and vitamin D deficiency. He and his co-authors on a recently published paper point out that the peculiar and unexplained seasonality of influenza corresponds to vitamin D levels. Read his eloquent discussion in Medical News Today at http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=51913.

In the article, Dr. Cannell explains:

"The vitamin D steroid hormone system has always had its origins in the skin, not in the mouth. Until quite recently, when dermatologists and governments began warning us about the dangers of sunlight, humans made enormous quantities of vitamin D where humans have always made it, where naked skin meets the ultraviolet B radiation of sunlight.
We just cannot get adequate amounts of vitamin D from our diet. If we don't expose ourselves to ultraviolet light, we must get vitamin D from dietary supplements...Today, most humans only make about a thousand units of vitamin D a day from sun exposure; many people, such as the elderly or African Americans, make much less than that. How much did humans normally make? A single, twenty-minute, full body exposure to summer sun will trigger the delivery of 20,000 units of vitamin D into the circulation of most people within 48 hours. Twenty thousand units, that's the single most important fact about vitamin D. Compare that to the 100 units you get from a glass of milk, or the several hundred daily units the U.S. government recommend as “Adequate Intake.” It's what we call an “order of magnitude” difference.

"Humans evolved naked in sub-equatorial Africa, where the sun shines directly overhead much of the year and where our species must have obtained tens of thousands of units of vitamin D every day, in spite of our skin developing heavy melanin concentrations (racial pigmentation) for protecting the deeper layers of the skin. Even after humans migrated to temperate latitudes, where our skin rapidly lightened to allow for more rapid vitamin D production, humans worked outdoors. However, in the last three hundred years, we began to work indoors; in the last one hundred years, we began to travel inside cars; in the last several decades, we began to lather on sunblock and consciously avoid sunlight. All of these things lower vitamin D blood levels. The inescapable conclusion is that vitamin D levels in modern humans are not just low - they are aberrantly low."


Like Dr. Cannell, I am absolutely convinced that vitamin D deficiency plays an important role in a number of illnesses, including coronary disease. The more we mind our patients/participants vitamin D status (blood levels of 25-OH-vitamin D3), the more easily we gain control over LDL cholesterol, pre-diabetic patterns, blood pressure, blood sugar, and coronary plaque. In fact, I am becoming rapidly convinced that vitamin D deficiency is an extremely important coronary risk factor.

Because I live in Wisconsin (bbrrrrr!) where seeing the sun is a cause for celebration and sun exposure is possible three months a year, I take 6000 units per day vitamin D. This is the amount necessary to raise my blood levels into the true, physiologic range of 50-70 ng/ml. My wife takes 2000 units per day, and each of my kids takes 1000 units per day, though I believe that my 14-year old son (my size now) should take more. We'll judge by blood levels.

If there is a little-known secret to reducing heart scan scores, vitamin D is that "secret".

To read more from Dr. Cannell or to subscribe to his free and very informative newsletter, go to Vitamin D Council

What if I had a cure for coronary disease?

If I had a cure for coronary disease, what would it look like? What would constitute cure? Would you recognize it if I showed it to you?

In the strictest sense, "cure" means an absolute elimination of any sign of coronary plaque, as well as elimination of any and all dangers associated with coronary disease. It would also mean elimination of the factors that created coronary atherosclerotic plaque in the first place.

In a more practical sense, you could argue that "cure" means a reduction of the amount of material that constitute coronary disease along with a dramatic reduction of the associated risks (i.e., heart attack).

You might call this second, more lax definition "regression" or "reversal".

Is "cure" in the strictest sense possible? No, not to my knowledge in 2006. Yes, there are many (kooks) who claim this is possible, but there's no objective evidence of this occurring.

Regression, or reversal, however, is indeed possible. In fact, I've seen it countless times following the participants in the Track Your Plaque program. If your heart scan score goes from 1000 (a bad score with high risk for heart attack) to 750, you've experienced a large reduction in the amount of atherosclerotic plaque that is behind coronary disease. You've also reduced your risk of an "event" like heart attack to near zero (provided you remain on the program that achieved regression in the first place).

Unfortunately, with present technology regression or reversal does not mean that the original causes of coornary plaque are eliminated. They're just controlled. Fish oil, for example, powerfully reduces triglyceride-containing lipoproteins that trigger coronary plaque growth. But if you stop fish oil, the evil lipoproteins come right back and start injuring your coronaries, causing more plaque growth.

The Track Your Plaque program is the closest thing I know of to a "cure" for coronary disease, that is, "cure" in the sense of regression or reversal. Perhaps in future we'll have a "cure" in the strict sense. Until now, this program is the best there is.

Alternatives to fish oil capsules

Occasionally, someone will be unable to take fish oil due to the large capsule size, excessive fishy belching, or stomach upset. The easiest solution is usually just to try a different brand, e.g., Sam's Club (Makers' Mark brand) enteric-coated.

However, sometimes liquid fish oil preparations may be preferred. Here'a list of products we've used successfully. All cost more than plain old fish oil capsules, but fish oil is so crucial to your heart scan/coronary plaque control efforts, that it really pays to search out alternatives.



Liquid fish oil alternatives to capsules:

Liquid fish oil--e.g., Carlson's liquid fish oil. Most liquid fish oil comes flavored either lemon or orange.



Frutol--A very clever re-formulation of fish oil that makes it water-soluble and non-oily. The Pharmax company has put their fish oil into a fruit flavored base that tastes pretty good and is not too expensive.
Go to www.pharmaxllx.com for more information. Unfortunately, I do not believe it's available in stores.





Coromega--another non-oily preparation, though available in some health food stores. Coromega comes in little single-serving foil dispensers. It tastes kind of fruity (though I personally like the Frutol better for taste and consistency). It's kind of pricey ($1.40 per day for two packets).



Regardless of what preparation you choose, you can determine the dose needed by adding up the EPA+DHA content. For the basic prevention effect, the starting dose for the Track Your Plaque program, you need a total of 1200 mg per day of EPA+DHA. Higher doses, e.g., 1800-2400 mg per day, may be required for correction of high triglyceres or postprandial (after-eating) abnormalities.

Ignoring your heart scan is medical negligence

I continue to be dumbfounded that many doctors continue to pooh-pooh or ignore CT heart scans when people get them.

I can't count the number of people I've seen or talked to through the Track Your Plaque program who've been told to ignore their heart scan scores. The most extreme example was a man whose physician told him his heart scan score of nearly 4000 was nothing to worry about!


A real-life story of a retired public defense attorney whose heart scan score of 1200 was ignored, followed two years later by sudden unstable heart symptoms and urgent bypass prompted us to write this fictitious lawsuit. Though it's not real, it could easily become real. To our knowledge, no single act of ignorance about heart scans has yet prompted such a lawsuit, but it's bound to happen given the number of scans being performed every year and the continued stubbornness of many physicians to acknowledge their importance.



Major Malpractice Class Action Lawsuit Looms for Doctors Who Ignore Heart Scan Tests

It's been several years since new medical discoveries have debunked old theories regarding heart disease and heart attack and have verified the efficacy of CT heart scans for detecting both early and advanced heart disease. Doctors who fail to keep apprised of these finding or refuse to change their practice for financial reasons put themselves at risk for becoming defendants in a major malpractice class action lawsuit. The plaintiffs will be a growing class of persons who were debilitated by avoidable heart attacks and heart procedures and the heirs and estates of those who have died.
Milwaukee , WI (PRWEB) November 29, 2005 -- This press release outlines a template for a potential class action lawsuit that may be on the horizon for the medical industry. The class of plaintiffs for this theoretical action remains latent but is growing on a daily basis. However, it requires only one such plaintiff to find an attorney who recognizes the scale and magnitude of the potential damages and move forward on a contingency basis. In real terms, this class could include 80% of those who had a heart attack, underwent a heart procedure, or subsequently died. According to the latest American Heart Association statistics, this number is estimated to be a least 865,000 persons and the entire class could easily be 10 times that number. Using a conservative estimate of $500,000 in damages per class member, the total damages could exceed $400 billion.

The plaintiffs, defendants, third parties, and facts surrounding the following moot complaint represent an actual incident. The names, specific health information, and dates have been changed to protect potential litigants.

Plaintiff, through his attorneys, brings this action on behalf of himself and all others similarly situated, and on personal knowledge as to himself and his activities, and on information and belief as to all other matters, based on investigation conducted by counsel, hereby alleges as follows:

NATURE OF THE ACTION

1.Plaintiff brings this class action on behalf of himself and all other persons who suffered physical damages or mental distress as a result of receiving a medical diagnosis indicating they had no identifiable heart disease, elevated risk for heat attack, or who were prescribed medications not suited to treat their heart disease once detected.

2.Substantial and irrefutable medical evidence has established that cardiac stress testing is an ineffective method for detecting heart disease of the type that is the root cause in over 90% of all heart attacks and other complications of heart disease that result in death or debilitating injury. A readily available and well-publicized test known as “CT heart scanning” is capable of detecting virtually all heart disease of this nature. It has also been established that simple cholesterol testing often fails to detect persons like likely to develop serious heart disease and prevents them from receiving common treatments capable of reducing or eliminating the source of their undetected heart disease. Readily available blood testing techniques exist that are capable of detecting non-cholesterol related sources of heart disease.

3.The medical community has made significant investments in outdated methods of detecting and treating heart disease. They rely on the revenue streams generated by providing these treatments to persons whose heart disease has progressed to the stage that intervention is required to prevent death or debilitation. Any change in diagnostic or treatment methods resulting in the prevention of heart disease would require substantial investments in new technologies and would severely reduce the market for current treatments. Plaintiffs believe this is a motivating factor in the neglect and willful suppression of readily available technology capable of detecting and preventing heart disease and represents gross medical malpractice.

SUBSTANTIVE ALLEGATIONS

On January 23, 1999, Plaintiff underwent a CT Heart Scan which was interpreted by a cardiologist at the ABC Scan Center . Plaintiff received a report from the Scan Center cardiologist indicating that his “calcium score” placed him in the top 1% for heart attack risk among men in his age group. The report also included the comment “Patient has a high risk of having at least one major stenosis (50% or greater blockage) in his Left Anterior Descending (LAD) artery and is urged to consult with a physician regarding this finding.”

On March 3, 1999 Plaintiff presented Defendant with the results of the January 23, 1999 CT Heart Scan. Defendant told Plaintiff to disregard the CT Heart Scan Results and ordered a physical including a stress test and cholesterol blood test.

On April 1, 2005, Plaintiff had a heart attack and a subsequent coronary angiography that confirmed multiple obstructive coronary plaques in his LAD. Plaintiff received an emergency balloon angioplasty to relieve his acute condition. Substantial damage to plaintiff's heart was incurred before emergency angioplasty could be instituted.

On April 3, 2005, per Defendant's recommendation, Plaintiff underwent open heart surgery to insert three bypasses in his LAD to resolve substantial obstructive heart disease, the same artery identified as having likely obstructive heart disease over 5 years earlier via CT heart scan.

On July 7, 2005, Plaintiff independently obtained additional blood testing not ordered by Plaintiff and was found to have several additional blood abnormalities not discovered by Defendant that are known to contribute to the development of heart disease and were readily treatable using lifestyle changes, nutritional supplements, and prescription drugs.

As early as September, 1996, the American Heart Association (AHA) issued a “Scientific Statement” to health professionals acknowledging the strong link between heart attacks and high calcium scores in asymptomatic patients. Extensive studies and references have confirmed the ineffectiveness of stress testing to reveal early heart disease in asymptomatic patients.

Plaintiff alleges that Defendant failed to utilize readily available medical tests and protocols to identify, aggressively treat, and potentially delay, halt, or reverse advanced heart disease that later resulted in extensive physical and emotional trauma to the Defendant.

PRAYER FOR RELIEF

WHEREFORE, Plaintiff herein demands judgment:

A. Declaring this action to be a proper class action maintainable pursuant to Rule 23 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure and declaring Plaintiff to be a proper Class representative;

B. Awarding damages against each defendant, joint and severally, and in favor of Plaintiff and all other members of the Class, in an amount determined to have been sustained by them, awarding money damages as appropriate, plus pre-judgment interest;

C. Awarding Plaintiff and the Class the costs and other disbursements of this suit, including without limitation, reasonable fees for attorneys, accountants, experts; and

JURY DEMAND

Plaintiff hereby demands a trial by jury.

Light the fuse of heart disease

Father Bob, despite his calling as a priest and counselor, led a stressful life. His average day was packed tightly with commitments: counseling members of his congregation, visiting the hospital, more official priest and church duties.

At age 53, his heart scan score of 799 came as a complete surprise. Even more of a surprise, his stress test was dramatically abnormal showing poor flow in the front of his heart at a level of exercise that wouldn't challenge most 75 year olds. His blood pressure with exericse: 230/100. Bob was shocked.

A few stents to the LDL later, Bob was trying to turn a new leaf on lifestyle. His life prior to the diagnosis of heart disease was driven by convenience. Because his day was so filled with commitments, he simply grabbed what he could from hospital cafeterias, fast foods, etc.

But after his procedure, Bob committed to choosing healthier foods, walk every day, and resist the food temptations presented by convenience.

However, temptation defeated him twice in the first few weeks after his stents. On the first occasion, Bob gave into eating a cheeseburger. On the second, Bob was at a fish fry (this is Wisconsin, after all) and ate a large serving of deep-fried fish.

On both occasions, Bob started feeling awful within minutes after eating: foggy, bloated, gassy, and fatigued. He took his blood pressure after each incident: 210/90, even though his blood pressure had more recently been trending down towards 130/80.

What happened? Grotesquely unhealthy foods like the deep-fried fish and cheeseburger provoke an abnormal constrictive process body wide. Some call this "endothelial dysfunction". Regardless, it is a graphic and frightening demonstration of the power of these sorts of unhealthy foods to wreak immediate and dangerous effects. Father Bob's response was more exagerrated than most, but it happens to all of us.

Eat badly and your body will pay the price. Even that occasional hot chocolate sundae or Egg McMuffin will yield cumulative injury, among which will be a rise in your heart scan score.

"I don't know what I'm doing here"

Jim came to the office at the prompting of his wife.

At age 52, Jim was semi-retired, having to work only a few hours a week to maintain his business. He'd had a high cholesterol identified about 10 years earlier and had been taking one or another statin drug ever since.

However, Jim's wife was a pretty savvy girl and understood the inadequacies of the conventional approach to heart disease prevention. Nonetheless, when Jim came in, he declared, "I feel great. I don't know what I'm doing here!"

I persuaded Jim to undergo a heart scan. His score: 2211, in the 99th percentile (the worst 1% for men in his age group). However, it was worse than that. Any score above 1000 carries a heart attack risk of 25% per year unless prevention issues are fully addressed.

Indeed, Jim proved to have far more than a high LDL cholesterol. Among the patterns uncovered with his lipoprotein analysis were small LDL, the postprandial (after-eating) abnormality of intermediate-density lipoprotein (IDL), and high triglycerides and VLDL. All would require correction if Jim is to hope to gain control of his extensive coronary plaque.

The message: Trying to discern risk for heart disease from cholesterol is complete folly. This man was going to die or have an urgent major heart procedure within the next year or two, all while taking his statin drug.

Discard the silly notion that cholesterol tells you everything you need to know about heart attack risk. It does not. It helps a little but leaves vast voids in risk determination. Fill those gaps with a heart scan, plain and simple.
Fasting with green tea

Fasting with green tea

I've been playing around with brief (18-24 hour) fasts with the use of green tea. Of the several variations on fasting, such as juice "fasts,"  I've been most impressed with the green tea experience.

While the weight loss effects of daily green tea consumption are modest, there seems to be a specific satiety effect that has now been demonstrated in multiple studies, such as this and this. In other words, green tea, through an uncertain mechanism, reduces hunger. The effect is not just due to volume, since the effect cannot be reproduced with hot water alone.

I therefore wondered whether green tea might be a useful beverage to consume during a fast, as it might take the "edge" off of hunger. While hunger during a fast in the wheat-free is far less than wheat-consuming humans, there is indeed an occasional twinge of hunger felt.

So I tried it, brewing a fresh 6-8 oz cup evert two hours or so. I brewed a pot in the morning while at home, followed by brewing single cups using my tea infuser at the office. Whenever I began to experience a hunger pang, I brewed another cup and sipped it. I was pleasantly surprised that hunger was considerably reduced. I sailed through my last 18 hours, for instance, effortlessly. The process was actually quite pleasant.

I brew loose Chinese bancha, sencha, and chunmee teas and Japanese gyokuro tea. Gyokuro is my favorite, but also the most expensive. Bancha is more affordable and I've used that most frequently.

If anyone else gives this a try, please report back your experience.

Comments (34) -

  • Phyllis

    6/1/2011 12:04:50 AM |

    I would like to know if this works with iced green tea as well. I used a method of one meal per day to loose 50+ pounds. I found it pretty easy, all in all, but have regained about 20 now and need to get back on it. I think I will give iced green tea a try! (I'm not crazy about hot green tea, but like it fine iced)

  • preserve

    6/1/2011 12:09:56 AM |

    I use tea as a method of extending eating intervals.  It works well.  I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the "upper" effect.  Ie.  uppers reduce appetite as a result of blocked sensory.

    I find fasting and sensory blocking to be counter-productive.

  • Geoffrey Levens, L.Ac.

    6/1/2011 12:33:19 AM |

    May be other effects but caffeine and it's cousin theobromine in the tea are pretty reliable appetite suppressants.  But isn't getting jacked up (even if only a little) a bit counter productive to some of the potential benefits of fasting?  The idea is to rest your physiology while catabolism is in full swing. Activating the sympathetic nervous system so you don't have to experience the sensations you don't like during the early stages of fasting does not seem to me to really promote that.

  • fredt

    6/1/2011 1:09:29 AM |

    Yes, green tea reduces my hunger; I just use Tetley in the bag. Some of the greens do not have a satiating effect on me, nor do any of the black teas. Coffee increases hunger for me. Bullion cubes or OXO packets also help. I make a 1.5 l thermos, and suck on that until its done. Some days 3 or 4 of them in a day. I think I have more hunger than most people, but I am down 55 kgs, 2 to 4 years ago and have been down for 2 years.

    The other thing that helps me is chew-able Vitamin C, a couple of 500s any time I feel hungry. It seems to raise BG, possible due to BG sparing, as it is required for far oxidation, or inside cell far transport, depending on who is explaining. Two 500's raise my BG form 4.0 to 5.3 -- OK US 72 to 95.
    I am off wheat mostly; occasionally Clam chowder, sausages, and a few crackers for low BG issues. One cracker raises BG 1.5 at 15 mins.

    Thanks for the one hour BG idea. Some of my higher protein meals were a problem, like 280 Calories of canned salmon ran my BG to 9.0 (OK 162). And my doctor says I an not diabetic but my a.m. BG sure is erratic, 4.0 to 6.2 this week.

  • Sharon

    6/1/2011 2:22:06 AM |

    Hey Phyllis, I'm with you. I have been drinking 4 cups green tea made with tea bags and then chilled and have noticed that I'm not as hungry but didn't really connect it with the tea itself. I need to lose 50 lbs and I like the idea of one meal a day.

  • Scott P.

    6/1/2011 2:24:11 AM |

    Green tea, or any tea actually, makes me a little ill on an empty stomach.  Not sure but believe it is the tannins.  I also was consuming a lot of green/white tea while fasting and I just felt really acidic and my face got red splotches, which seems to coincide with acidity.  I know the net result is supposed to be alkaline for green/white tea but that has not been my experience.  Recently, I've been adding a tablespoon of apple cider vinager to a cup of warm water.  Went a fairly easy 18 hours today but did break down and had four or five macadamia nuts around 12 hours in.

  • MAS

    6/1/2011 2:44:37 AM |

    I absolutely drink green and lightly oxidized oolongs during my fasts.   It curbs the hunger and provides focus.  Been doing it for 2.5 years.

  • Dr. William Davis

    6/1/2011 2:49:43 AM |

    After millennia of human starvation, to think that we still have tons to learn about fasting used for health purposes!

    Phyllis--While I've not tried it personally, nor do I know of any formal data, I expect that iced green tea--provided it is real brewed green tea, and not the bottled variety--should work every bit as well.

  • Dianne - TPSW

    6/1/2011 1:28:40 PM |

    I am unable to drink green tea at all on an empty stomach, I will absolutely throw up if I do.  I end up with pullovertothesideoftheroadI'mgoingtopukeyesseriously!".   I actually threw up all over my suit once which was really special.  Green tea with food often makes me queasy as well.  I am allergic to oak so I think there may be a tannin connection as some heavy oak wines are problematic for me.

  • Anne

    6/1/2011 4:46:28 PM |

    I am making today a fast day. I have been drinking a mix of green and white tea but it is decaffeinated.  How often should one fast?

  • Jonathan Carey

    6/1/2011 5:58:30 PM |

    For those who get dizzy on green tea, try puerh tea.  It is a fermented green tea that is also much lower in caffeine and it taste much better than green.  It is the equivalent of drinking an aged red wine over 2 buck chuck.

  • JLL

    6/2/2011 11:27:49 AM |

    This question has been around for quite some time,  but no one seems to know the answer for certain.

    Theoretically at least, consuming antioxidants during fasting could be detrimental to autophagy (removing "junk" cells), since antioxidants might suppress the stress response from fasting. This is why some studies show antioxidants and exercise are a bad combination -- you *want* some stress to happen so that the body can adapt to it.

    Then again, there is the theory that small amounts of antioxidants actually work through the same mechanism as fasting and exercise -- hormesis. In which case fasting + antioxidants might complement each other. But that's just speculation.

    What we do know from studies is that green tea seems to increase weight loss, for example when combined with calorie restriction (and thus should apply to fasting):

    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-increases-weight-loss-during.html

    And when combined with exercise:

    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/03/green-tea-extract-increases-insulin.html
    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/02/green-tea-extract-enhances-abdominal.html

    And when combined with capsaicin (from chilli pepper), it reduces the feeling of hunger and thus calorie intake:

    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-and-capsaicin-reduce-hunger.html

    So all in all, whatever the mechanism is, if you're fasting just for the sake of losing weight, I'd say green tea is a pretty good bet.

    - JLL

  • Paul Lee

    6/2/2011 12:21:31 PM |

    Would depend on the length of fasts, but the East Stop East method advocates two fasts per week.  My fasts are now usually shorter, as they kind of trained me to stop grazing. I usually don't bother with breakfast now. The more you eat, the more you want to eat sometimes.

  • nina

    6/2/2011 8:10:00 PM |

    I'm subscribed to your blog, but since  you changed format the posts haven't been showing up in my mail box.  I tried to re-subscribe, but am told I'm already subscribed.  How do I get back in the loop?

    Nina

  • Dr. William Davis

    6/3/2011 1:31:00 AM |

    Anyone not receiving email versions of this blog:

    I wonder if the shift over to the new platform caused a few glitches. My blog IT help is out of commission temporarily. Therefore, please sign up again at the top.

    Sorry about that.

  • Dr. Mary Taylor, PT, DPT

    6/3/2011 6:41:41 PM |

    Yes, I completely agree with you! I went 90% wheat and sugar free from November 2010 to February 2011 and lost a whopping 2 pounds. It wasn't until I went to 95% or more wheat free that I was able to start losing weight. I am now 100% wheat free and I have lost 36.2 pounds in 15 weeks. I have also been able to significantly cut my caloric intake to 500-700 calories per day (sometimes less than 500) using iced jasmine green tea. I truly believe that a diet that is lower in calories is better for health. I typically drink 6-8 glasses a day and I really enjoy it. It helps immensely with any hunger I may have and completely satisfies my sense to eat. I use any of the varieties available in tea bag (Numi, Two Leaves and a Bud, Stash, and Mighty Leaf are my favorites). I typically choose whatever's on sale. I also drink a full glass every morning prior to eating and that also seems to stimulate my colon which is a bonus as well when consuming such low caloric counts.

    On a cholesterol and BG level, my family genetics are something that should be studied. While I started my diet at 234.8# on 2/15/2011 (I'm 5'3" and 47 y/o female) my total cholesterol was 167 and my HDL was 54. My 102 y/o grandmother however, has a total cholesterol of 155 and an HDL of 115! My 76 y/o mother also has the same great results but her HDL is "only" 109. Neither of them are on any medication for cholesterol and both of them eat a diet fully based on things we berate on this blog (cookies, bread, ice cream, fried foods, etc). Neither are overweight either. I'm eager to see what my levels become when I reach my goal weight. Maybe I can surpass that HDL of 115!

  • nina

    6/3/2011 9:39:20 PM |

    I tried that before I posted and it tells me I'm already subscribed.

    Nina

  • Ron Saunders

    6/5/2011 8:06:56 AM |

    About 15 years ago I went on a fast and had only water.  The fast lasted for 10 days.  No green tea.  Just water.  After 18 hours, I completely lost any hunger.  Meanwhile I continued to cook meals for my family.  I also continued to go to work every day.

    The experience seemed wonderful.  I had been suffering badly from asthma, and all symptoms disappeared!  I could have kept going forever without eating.  However, after 10 days I started to have problems with urination.  I began excreting small, hard pellets.

    I went to the doctor, and he exploded.  "You bloody fool!" he said.  I had altered the ketone content of my blood.

    So I started eating again.  My first meal was brown rice (no salt).  It was the most beautiful meal I ever had.  Gradually I returned to normal eating.  Gradually I returned to my asthma symptoms. Gradually all meals started tasting the same.

    Did I lose weight?  I'm not sure, as my ketone problem overshadowed all else.  Did I need green tea or anything else to curb my appetite?  No, plain water (not even distilled or bottled water, but tap water) was good enough. Do I recommend fasting?  In moderation.  10 days is far too long.

  • Gabriella Kadar

    6/6/2011 3:20:06 AM |

    Is the fluoride content of any tea (Camellia sinensis) not an issue?  Data on ppm fluoride vary but they all appear to be quite high and much higher than water fluoridation levels.

  • David

    6/7/2011 8:37:20 PM |

    Try Jasmine Tea which is green tea with Jasmine flowers.  Much tastier.
    I don't like plain green tea myself, but I love Jasmine tea.

  • Renfrew

    6/8/2011 8:08:38 AM |

    There is only one problem with green tea: Pesticides.
    Most green tea is imported from India or China because it is the cheapest. On testing, a serious amount of pesticides, fungicides, microcides is found regularly. I wonder if this diminishes the health aspect of green tea.
    I used to buy organic green tea from Japan but after Fukushima that option is also out.
    Still, certified organic is the only option left, I suppose.
    Renfrew

  • nina

    6/8/2011 8:04:07 PM |

    Just tried again and I get the same message 'You're already subscribed'.  Pity that Feedburner no longer delivers to me.

    Nina

  • GaryR

    6/9/2011 9:43:01 AM |

    Started IF HFLC diet three months ago. 30 lbs lost and A1c down to
    5.1 !! (was 6.7 ) . Curiously I have been drinking green tea during the daily 18 hour fasts and hunger is a rare occurance,  hunger pains last only a few seconds. The tea helps,  body and mind trained to not think about food until
    nightly free for all. Thank you, Dr. Davis and contributors>

  • majkinetor

    6/9/2011 1:37:31 PM |

    2 Gabriella

    Flouride IS an issue with green tea. There are known cases of flourde poisoning with excessive green tea drinking - woman drinking equivalent of 20-30 green tea cups per day. This isn't something to worry about on regular usage but if you do it on IF with reduced nutrient input and more frequently to reduce appetite it can become a problem.

    White tea has lower content of fluoride as it is harvested when plant is still young. It is much more expensive but overall better then green tea due to less processing and lower fluoride content.

    Coffee works for me absolutely amazing in reducing hunger. To some people, however, it works the opposite way. My friend develops hand tremor, nervousness, and heat. The same thing she got from the green tea but not other teas. Caffeine might be problematic for some I guess, or maybe tannin. We are currently in the process of isolation of such substance.

    To reduce appetite, I found the following valuable:
    - Garlic, fresh, in tomato juice (parsley can be included to block the smell). The capsule doesn't work.
    - High intensity exercise, short bursts of 15-20 minutes will shut down digestive engine and you will not be able to eat for hour at least.
    - Marijuana restriction - its usage during fat loss might be problematic due to activation of CB1/anandamide system.
    - Periodic IF can learn body to handle prolonged food abstinence. I find that 16-24 hours fast is enough.
    - Almonds, 10-15g, are cool, especially if you tend to go crazy before sleep - its mostly fat which doesn't rise insulin during night. 2g CHO, 3.5g MUFA, 1g PUFA, 2g P is enough to make your hunger go down at least a bit and still keep your insulin down.
    - Water

    I would suggest extensive supplementation during IF - especially Vit C (at least 2g as frequent as possible), Mg, Iodine, Selenium, Idebenon.

  • Sifter

    6/10/2011 4:13:39 AM |

    Drs. Davis or Taylor (or anyone else) have you noticed any issues with accumulated caffeine intake from multiple cups of Green Tea throughout the day?

  • Cate

    6/12/2011 8:22:10 PM |

    Dr. Davis, I hadn't heard about the dangers of pesticide use relating to green tea (as mentioned by Renfew, above)...is this a viable concern?  Since green tea is loaded with antioxidants, do the benefits outweigh the risks in this case?

    I have been drinking about two to three cups of Tazo Zen Green Tea for quite awhile now (hot, as well as chilled), and enjoy it very much.  It does seem to curb cravings quite well.  I also notice increased energy without the edgy side effects that coffee sometimes causes.  Before Tazo, I was not a big fan of the taste of green tea, but the Zen blend also contains lemon verbena, spearmint leaves and lemongrass, which enhances the flavor and makes it quite delicious--providing an "aromatherapy experience" along with the tea consumption.  Smile

  • Evolutionarily

    6/21/2011 7:28:23 AM |

    Thank you for your informative comment JLL!

  • azzy

    6/27/2011 12:15:19 PM |

    me too!i keep hearing about green tea for fasting, so i took it on day 2 i think and was detoxing to fast cos i took it on a empty stomach....:/

  • Logan

    9/15/2011 7:56:34 PM |

    I drink the Tazo Zen Green Tea from Starbucks. I prefer this green tea over any others, however I have noticed extreme dizziness when I drink this tea. Has anyone experienced this? I even bought the tea bags to brew at home, I do not add any sweetener and love the taste. I occasionally drink black tea or soda and do not get the same dizzy feeling, therefore I believe it is not caffeine causing me to feel dizzy it's just green tea. Any suggestions or comments? I like the benefits of green tea but not sure it's worth the dizziness.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:36:08 AM |

    Wacky. No, I'm not sure why this happens.

    Perhaps its some mixture or proportion of the theaflavins or other components. There are hundreds of green tea preparations available. It might be worth finding a happy alternative.

  • Wendy Rahilly

    11/25/2011 3:50:05 PM |

    I have been using green tea for years in weight loss.  You are right, it is not a "speedy" remedy and you will only recognize small affects it has, however, it does work.  On average, it is said that you can burn anywhere from 70 to 80 calories a day drinking green tea.  This is assuming you are drinking at least 3 to 4 cups daily.  It should be combined with water and a healthy diet and exercise.

  • Dr. H

    10/27/2012 11:38:52 AM |

    About the dizziness, I had severe vertigo in the middle of the night, i.e. at 3 am (my blood pressure was 130/100 pr 90), and the day and the night before sleeping, I consumed 4 mugs of green tea. The vertigo was associated with vomiting (which relieved the vertigo for a while). The vertigo lasted till the next day (vomited 4x). The green tea was a gift from a friend who came back from China-loose dried leaves. After that episode, I think I can't make myself to drink green tea again.

  • Jennifer

    2/20/2013 7:12:45 AM |

    I sometimes do a morning 'flush' of green tea, up to 4 freshly brewed mugfuls, with the addition of a squeeze of fresh lemon, which complements the taste and gives extra benefits, vitamin c and supporting detoxification.

    I recently saw a BBC documentary which demonstrated an optimal brew time of 7 minutes for maximum anti-oxidant release.

    Also, the cooled teabags are an excellent beauty treatment for the eye area, squeeze excess moisture and relax for a few minutes.

    Am reluctant to extend beyond midday due to stimulating effect of caffeine, how about switching to other teas that deliver other useful benefits? Ginger, fennel, liquorice come to mind.

    Blessings of health

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