(Lack of ) Quality of nutritional supplements

In my last post, I blogged about how we must not confuse marketing with truth. They are often two different things.

A patient I saw today was absolutely convinced that his fish oil was the best available in the world: purer, uncontaminated by mercury or pesticides--"not like that other crap on the shelves." I asked him how he knew this. "They say so," he proudly declared.

Do you recognize this? He fell for the marketing. While there may be some truth in the manufacturer's claims, you can't believe it from the mouth of the manufacturer. True judgements about quality and purity have to come from an independent source like Consumer Reports, Consumer Lab, or the FDA.

But the FDA doesn't regulate the quality and purity of nutritional supplements. On the positive side, this has allowed supplement manufacturers to keep costs down, not having to navigate arcane and complex regulatory restrictions.

On the negative side, a fair number of supplement manufacturers get away with 1) producing supplements that fail to contain the stated amounts of ingredients, occasionally containing none of the essential ingredient(s), 2) contain contaminants like lead, and 3) make extravagant and often unfounded claims like "superior", "more effective", and "purer". (DHEA, for instance, is a particular landmine of poor quality. I recently suggested that a patient take DHEA; despite consistently taking 50 mg of a specific brand for several months, the blood level of DHEA-S didn't budge one bit--there was likely little or none in the capsule.)

The Fanatic Cook at http://fanaticcook.blogspot.com has posted some very insightful discussions on this issue and the proposed FDA regulations of supplements. They're worth perusing.

I really wish regulation weren't necessary and that the industry could have policed itself. But it clearly has failed and perhaps federal oversight is not such a bad thing, as long as the FDA regulations restrict themselves to oversight over quality and purity and not to efficacy. It's the efficacy regulation that could hogtie innovation in supplement development.

Marketing and truth are not the same

I often remind people: Don't confuse marketing with the truth.

Today, I spent a total of probably an hour and a half dissuading patients that some crazed piece of marketing trying to sell them something was not the same as truth.

I spent approximately 40 minutes alone with a woman who was absolutely convinced that:

--Nattokinase would cure her of all heart disease. It does not. Despite the promising health benefits of natto and vitamin K2 supplementation, nattokinase is a scam with no basis in science nor logic.

--Niacin destroys your liver and homeopathic remedies are superior. Quite simply, homeopathy = quackery. No rational thinking scientist endorses the utter nonsense practiced in this strange and outrageous set of practices that requires you to suspend all reason.

--Sufficient vitamin D is obtainable through a "potent" multivitamin. I know of no multivitamin preparation that even begins to provide the dose of vitamin D that is actually required by adults, nor is it absorbed since these D preparations are powder based.

--Fish oil will poison you with mercury. Accordingly, one brand of fish oil claims to be the only safe form. Those of you following these posts, or the reports of the USDA and FDA, as well as the reports of Consumer Reports and Consumer Lab (www.consumerlab.com) know that, unlike fish itself, there is no mercury in fish oil capsules.

--All coronary atherosclerotic heart disease is caused by heavy metal poisoning. Thus chelation with EDTA represents a cure for heart disease.


People are inundated with marketing that promise extravagant cures, remove need for any medication, make you smarter, sexier, thinner, and on and on.

If you see a TV ad for Ford that says they make the best cars in the U.S., do you immediately run out and put a For Sale sign on your GM car and buy a Ford? No, of course not. You recognize the ad for what it is: marketing. It may be true, but a TV commercial is not enough to convince you.

Then why would an ad promising extraordinary cures for cancer or heart disease convince you that this is true? It should not. Marketing ads should only serve to alert you to the possibility of value or benefit, but should never-- never--stand alone as proof. Take marketing for what it is: marketing of a product or service, not a scientific report, not a factual report, not news.

Marketing is advertising. Period.

More on erectile dysfunction

Several facts on erectile dysfunction and coronary plaque:


If you have erectile dysfunction, there's at least a 50% chance you also have coronary plaque.

If you have coronary plaque by a CT heart scan, there's a 50% chance you have erectile dysfunction.

If you have symptomatic coronary disease (chest pains, breathlessness, prior heart attack), there's a 90% chance you also have erectile dysfunction.


Coronary disease is characterized by a dysfunctional state of the "endothelium", or inner lining of the coronary arteries. Erectile dysfunction is characterized by dysfunction of the endothelium of the penile circulation. Same phenomenon, different territories. (There are other differences, of course, but the two conditions share this fundamental phenomenon.)


If you have any doubts about the physiologic effects of the supplement, l-arginine, just give it a try if you have erectile dysfunction. The erection enhancing effects alone should convince you that a genuine artery-dilating effect is exerted by this very powerful nutritional supplement.

If l-arginine fails by itself to restore full erectile capacity, there are additional strategies, both nutritional and medical, that you can consider.

Our newest Track Your Plaque Special Report on erectile dysfunction is coming out any day now.

High LDL cholesterol--only

As a sequel to my last post, just how often can we blame an isolated high LDL cholesterol as the cause of coronary plaque and a heart scan score?

In other words, how often does someone prove to have only LDL cholesterol as the cause of a heart scan score . . . and nothing else? No low HDL, small LDL, lipoprotein(a), a post-prandial (after-eating) intermediate-density lipoprotein, inflammatory responses, phospholipase A2, high triglycerides, vitamin D deficiency, etc.

Rarely. In fact, I can truly count the number of people who have only LDL cholesterol as their sole cause of coronary atherosclerotic plaque on one hand. It is really an infrequent situation.

Far more commonly, people have 5, 6, 7 or more reasons for coronary plaque.

Thus, the idea that a statin drug to reduce LDL will cure heart disease is completely folly. It does happen--but rarely. I think I've seen it happen twice. Much more commonly, a program that addresses all the causes of coronary plaque yields far superior benefits.

In my view, an effort to identify all the causes is relatively easy, makes far better sense, and provides you much greater assurance that you will succeed in conquering heart disease and removing its evil influence from your life.

Heart disease = statin deficiency

Judging from the conversations I hear from colleagues, what I hear from the media, and drug company advertising, you'd think that heart disease has one cause--a deficiency of statin drugs.

As their thinking goes, if you have coronary disease, you need a statin drug (Lipitor, Zocor, Crestor, pravachol, etc.). If you have progressive coronary disease, you need more statin drug. If you have a heart attack while on a statin drug, you need even more statin drug.

Some "experts" have even proposed that we do away with LDL cholesterol and we just give everybody a statin drug at high doses.

Does this make any sense to you?

Doesn't it make better sense that if someone has progressive heart disease or heart attack while on a statin drug, then target the other causes largely unaffected by a statin drug? Perhaps if LDL cholesterol remains high on the statin drug, then a higher dose is justified. But more often than not, it's not a high LDL on statin drugs that responsible, it's other causes. And there's many of them: low HDL, VLDL, IDL, Lp(a), deficiency of omega-3 fatty acids, inflammatory processes, vitamin D deficiency, among others. (An important exception to this is when the conventional calculated LDL substantially underestimates true LDL as measured by LDL particle number by NMR, apoprotein B, or 'direct' LDL.)

Imagine someone has pneumonia. After 2 weeks of antibiotics, they are only partly better. The solution: a higher dose of the same antibiotic--but never question if it was the right antibiotic in the first place. That's what is going on in heart disease.

The doctors have been brainwashed into believing this $22 billion dollar per year bit of propaganda. The drug companies actively try to recruit the public into believing the same. Don't fall for it.

The statin drugs do indeed have a role. But they are not the complete answer. More of the same when disease progresses makes no sense at all.

Fish oil and mercury

I often get questions about the mercury content in fish oil. I've even had patients come to the office saying their primary care doctor told them to stop fish oil to avoid mercury poisoning.

Manufacturers of fish oil also make claims that this product or that ("super-concentrated", "pharmaceutical grade", "purified", etc.) is purer or less contaminated than competitors' products. The manufacturers of the "drug" Omacor, or prescription fish oil, have added to the confusion by suggesting that their product is the most pure of all, since it is the most concentrated of any fish oil preparation (900 mg EPA+DHA per capsule). They claim that "OMACOR is naturally derived through a unique, patented process that creates a highly concentrated, highly purified prescription medicine. By prescribing OMACOR® (omega-3-acid ethyl esters), a prescription omega-3, your doctor is giving you a concentrated and reliable omega-3. Each OMACOR capsule contains 90% omega-3 acids (84% EPA/DHA*). Nonprescription omega-3 dietary supplements typically contain only 13%-63% EPA/DHA."

How much truth is there in these concerns?

Let's go to the data published by the USDA, FDA, and several independent studies. Let's add to that the independent (and therefore presumably unbiased) analyses provided by Consumer Reports and Consumer Labs (www.consumerlab.com). How much mercury has been found in fish oil supplements?

None.

This is different from the mercury content of whole fish that you eat. Predatory fish that are at the top of the food chain and consume other fish and thereby concentrate organic methyl mercury, the toxic form of mercury. Thus, shark, swordfish, and King mackerel are higher in mercury than sardines, herring, and salmon.

The mercury content of fish oil capsules have little to do with the method of processing and much more with the animal source of oil. Fish oil is generally obtained from sardines, salmon, and cod, all low in mercury. Fish oil capsules are not prepared from swordfish or shark.

Thus, concerns about mercury from fish oil--regardless of brand--are generally unfounded, according to the best information we have. Eating whole fish--now that's another story for another time. But you and I can take our fish oil to reduce triglycerides, VLDL, IDL, small LDL, and heart attack risk without worrying about mercury.

How much omega-3s are enough?

The basic dose we advocate for the Track Your Plaque program is 1200 mg per day of EPA + DHA, the essential omega-3 fatty acids.

1200 mg EPA+DHA is generally obtainable by taking 4 capsules of 1000 mg of fish oil, since the majority of preparations contain 180 mg EPA and 120 mg DHA per capsule.

But how will you know if a higher dose wouldn't be even better?

The principal parameter to look at is triglycerides. If triglycerides remain above 60 mg/dl, we usually consider increasing fish oil.

Another measure that's very important is intermediate-density lipoprotein, or IDL, also called "remnant lipoproteins" on a VAP panel. Persistence of any IDL or remnant lipoproteins is reason to consider more fish oil. Most commonly, if there is some persistence of either, we increase fish oil to 6000 mg per day of a standard preparation, or 1800 mg/day of EPA+DHA.

The only time we see persistence of IDL or remnant lipoproteins with this higher dose is when triglycerides are really high. If starting triglycerides are, for instance, 500 mg/dl, then even this higher dose may be insufficient. This is when more highly concentrated preparations of fish oil may be necessary, occasionally even the prescription form, Omacor. (We currently use Omacor only when high doses of EPA+DHA are required, most because of its outrageous cost. Two capsules per day costs around $120 per month; three capsules per day to provide 1800 mg/day of EPA+DHA costs $180 per month. I think this is outrageous and so we use it only when absolutely necessary.)

You might even argue that a higher dose of 1800 mg EPA+DHA, or 6000 mg of a standard capsule, might be preferable for more assured reduction of heart attack risk--even when triglycerides and IDL are perfectly under control. I wouldn't argue with you. But you won't observe any measurable feedback that tells you that a heightened effect is being obtained. I take that dose myself, in fact, despite the fact that elimination of wheat products and weight loss was sufficient to drop my triglycerides to the target level. I figure it's a small additional effort for added peace of mind.

Repentance for past sins

If you are new to the Track Your Plaque program and would like to jump start your effort, or if you are struggling with losing weight and excess weight is a part of the situation that created your CT heart scan score, then don't forget about fasting.

Fasting is the cessation of eating. However, recall from the Track Your Plaque Special Report, Fasting: Fast Track to Control Plaque at http://www.cureality.com/library/fl_04-012fasting.asp, there are many variations on fasting that permit some intake of healthy foods. (Thus, they are not, in the strict sense, "fasting". Accurate or no, there are variations that may be more palatable or do-able in the real world by real people.)

My personal favorite method to fast is to use a low-sugar, low-fat soy milk such as Light Silk, available at most major grocery stores. This high-protein, low-fat, low-sugar soy milk takes the edge off hunger and provides a minimal quantity of calories. A minimum of 72 hours is required for substantial results. (My one reservation about this brand of soy milk is that the Fanatic Cook claims that the manufacturer, Dean Foods, is a factory farm operation that abuses livestock--a discussion for another day.)

Fasting yields more than weight loss. It refreshes your appreciation for food. It reawakens you to the amount and quality of food you've been putting in your body. Fasting also allows you to recognize just how bad you might feel from the diet you were eating.

You also emerge from a fast with a reduced appetite and a renewed sense of appreciation for food. It makes the discipline of healthy eating a lot easier when you break your fast.

I tell people that fasting is not punishment. It is a form of enlightenment, of re-experiencing food and life. Fasting allows you to "catch up" on all the indiscretions you've been guilty of over the years.

It also provides enormous advantage in gaining control over coronary plaque.

A fanatic for Fanatic Cook

If you haven't already done so, I'd urge you to peruse the wonderfully insightful, sophisticated, and biting commentary provided by the Fanatic Cook Blog at http://fanaticcook.blogspot.com.

She (I assume it's a she) has been discussing the proposed Safe Food Act recently, an effort to address all the dangers in foods that have come to attention lately, like melamine in pet food and E. coli in bagged spinach. Her most recent post is:

Nebraska Farm Bureau Thinks Food Safety Act Bad Idea, the latest in a series of posts exploring this issue.

I'd like to know who the Fanatic Cook is, or "Bix" as she calls herself. (I assume it's a "she" but I don't really know that for a fact.) I've corresponded with her and she prefers to remain anonymous for unspecified reasons. I'd like to know who this person is both for a more secure sense of credibility, as well as I'd simply like to know who can write so intelligently and why. I suspect that she's a professional nutrition scientist or something along those lines, since the level of insight into many scientific issues is quite impressive. Her Blogs will make great material for a book, if compiled and organized. Watch out for this one.

Erectile dysfunction and coronary plaque

Erectile dysfunction (ED), previously known as "impotence," and coronary atherosclerotic plaque go hand in hand.

A recent study in men with advanced coronary disease showed that 93% experienced ED. The participants in the Track Your Plaque program, for the most part, do not have advanced coronary atherosclerosis, but have an earlier form detected by a CT heart scan.

What proportion of men with asymptomatic coronary plaque as measured by a CT heart scan have ED? Around 50%. In other words, it's not a rare occurrence.

The conversation about ED (and even its renaming from impotence) really gained momentum with the development of ED-drugs like Viagra and Cialis. The drugs are reasonably effective and safe. However, you will hear little about all the strategies that can either precede your need for these drugs and/or enhance your response to these drugs if the response is partial. That part of the conversation, of course, doesn't yield loads of drug company revenues.

One of the most helpful and specific nutritional supplements available that can partially restore the nitric oxide-deficiency of ED is l-arginine. L-arginine is the body's source of nitric oxide (NO), the master dilator (relaxing agent) for all arteries of the body. NO dilates penile arteries, it dilates coronary arteries. Lack of NO disables the penile capacity for erection and encourages growth of coronary atherosclerotic plaque. Track Your Plaque Members are already familiar with l-arginine as a facilitator of coronary plaque regression.

We will detail the supplements that you can use safely in your Track Your Plaque program to both enhance erectile function if you suffer ED, as well as impact positively on coronary health, in an upcoming and detailed Special Report on the www.cureality.com website.
My bread contains 900 mg omega-3

My bread contains 900 mg omega-3

Phyllis is the survivor of a large heart attack (an "anterior" myocardial infarction involving the crucial front of the heart) several years ago. Excessive fatigue prompted a stress test, which showed poor blood flow in areas outside the heart attack zone. This prompted a heart catheterization, then a bypass operation one year ago.

FINALLY, Phyllis began to understand that her unhealthy lifestyle played a role in causing her heart disease. But lifestyle alone wasn't to blame. Along with being 70 lbs overweight and overindulging in unhealthy sweets every day, she also had lipoprotein(a), small LDL particles, and high triglycerides. The high triglycerides were also associated with its evil "friends," VLDL and IDL (post-prandial, or after-eating, particles).

When I met her, Phyllis' triglycerides typically ranged from 200-300 mg/dl . Fish oil was the first solution, since it is marvelously effective for reducing triglycerides, as well as VLDL and IDL. Her dose: 6000 mg of a standard 1000 mg capsule (6 capsules) to provide 1800 mg EPA + DHA, the effective omega-3 fatty acids.

But Phyllis is not terribly good at following advice. She likes to wander off and follow her own path. She noticed that the healthy bread sold at the grocery store and containing flaxseed boasted "900 mg of omega-3s per slice!". So she ate two slices of the flaxseed-containing bread per day and dropped the fish oil.

Guess what? Triglycerides promptly rebounded to 290 mg/dl, along with oodles of VLDL and IDL.

A more obvious example occurs in people with a disorder called "familial hypertriglyceridemia," or the inherited inability to clear triglycerides from the blood. These people have triglycerides of 800 mg/dl, 2000 mg/dl, or higher. Fish oil yields dramatic drops of hundreds, or even thousands of mg. Fish oil likely achieves this effect by activating the enzyme, lipoprotein lipase, that is responsible for clearing blood triglycerides. Flaxseed oil and other linolenic acid sources yield . . .nothing.

Don't get me wrong. Flaxseed is a great food. As the ground seed, it reduces LDL cholesterol, reduces blood sugar, provides fiber for colon health, and may even yield anti-cancer benefits. Flaxseed oil is a wonderful oil, rich in monounsaturates, low in saturates, and rich in linolenic acid, an oil fraction that may provides heart benefits a la Mediterranean diet.

But linolenic acid from flaxseed is not the same as EPA + DHA from fish oil. This is most graphically proven by the lack of any triglyceride-reducing effects of flaxseed preparations.

Enjoy your flaxseed oil and ground flaxseed--but don't stop your fish oil because of it. Heart disease and coronary plaque are serious business. You need serious tools to combat and control them. Fish oil is serious business for triglycerides. Flaxseed is not.

Comments (8) -

  • John Townsend

    2/15/2007 6:59:00 PM |

    re: " Her dose: 6000 mg of a standard 1000 mg capsule (6 capsules) to provide 1800 mg EPA + DHA, the effective omega-3 fatty acids."

    Excellent blog entry! On fish oil, this dose seems to be very high. Do you recommend this as a typical regimen?

    On another related topic, your views on common statins (eg lipitor, crestor, zocor, etc) would be appreciated. I'm getting strong warnings from knowledgable friends that statins are dangerous for liver function and can cause irreversiable damage. On the other hand I personally have found them to be very effective in bringing my cholesteral numbers in line, more than anything else I've tried. TIA

  • Dr. Davis

    2/16/2007 2:19:00 AM |

    John--
    No. This dose is for treatment of high triglycerides or postprandial disorders. Our usual starting dose is 4000 mg (1200 mg EPA+DHA).

    Regarding the statin issue. I'd refer you to an article I wrote for Life Extension magazine  archived on their website, www.lef.com. The article, entitled Cholesterol and Statin Drugs: Separating Hype from Reality, can be accessed at http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=1044&query=davis%20statin&hiword=DAVI%20DAVID%20DAVIE%20DAVIES%20DAVIN%20DAVIO%20DAVISON%20DAVISS%20DAVIT%20STATI%20STATING%20STATINS%20STATIS%20davis%20statin%20

  • Cindy

    2/16/2007 3:24:00 AM |

    I just read your article that you referred to in your previous comment answer.

    I was on statins several years ago. Not only did I experience muscle and joint pains, I also had serious memory problems, depression and sleep problems. I also found that my long-standing "restless legs syndrome" became much much worse. I've also talked to many people who have experienced serious PND (peripheral nerve disorders).

    What I also experinced was a rather significant drop in HDL cholesterol.

    Thoughts?

  • Mike

    2/16/2007 3:37:00 PM |

    "But Phyllis is not terribly good at following advice. She likes to wander off and follow her own path. She noticed that the healthy bread sold at the grocery store and containing flaxseed boasted "900 mg of omega-3s per slice!". So she ate two slices of the flaxseed-containing bread per day and dropped the fish oil."

    Allow me to defend Phyllis. If all she had been told was to take a given amount of omega-3s, then she was following the prescribed path. She should have been educated as to what the various omega-3s are and which type she needed to consume.

  • John Townsend

    2/16/2007 9:31:00 PM |

    Thank you for passing on your article 'Statin Drugs: Separating Hype from Reality'... very informative I must say! Just a quick heads up on your comment about folic acid (ie “always take folic acid and vitamin B12 with niacin to protect against disruption of healthy methylation patterns”), although studies are not conclusive, apparently folate therapy (taking a combination of folic acid, vitamin B6, and vitamin B12) may be harmful after stent placement and probably should be avoided. For those who have this condition it’s advised instead, to try to get enough vitamin B by eating a balanced diet. [ref: Lange H, et al. (2004). Folate therapy and in-stent restenosis after coronary stenting. New England Journal of Medicine, 350(26): 2673–2681]

  • madcook

    2/17/2007 5:32:00 PM |

    I have to chime in here regarding Cindy's comment on statins:

    I dutifully tried for nearly two years to tolerate the various statins prescribed by my doctor.  The deep muscle aches and spasms were nearly unbearable... getting far worse when my "numbers" still weren't right and he decided to DOUBLE my dosage of Vytorin (Zocor + Zetia) from 10/20 to 10/40.  What resulted was a true nightmare for me.  I terminated this med when I had such severe muscle aching, spasms and dis-coordination that navigating up a flight of stairs was nearly impossible.  Not only that, but my memory was (fortunately temporarily) impaired, and I can remember little from a three month period of time.  Interestingly my CK was never elevated and this all happened while taking 200mgs. daily of a very reputable Co -Q10 formulation.  Cessation of the Vytorin saw the aches subside within 2 or 3 days and full mental clarity resumed within a week.  I was lucky.

    My doctor stated that there were three other statins we hadn't yet tried... fat chance doc!

    What chaps me is that the pharmaceutical companies continue to state that there is only a small percentage of patients who have side effects.  In practice, LOTS of people have problems tolerating statins, BUT these things never are reported, certainly mine wasn't by my doctor.

    Side effects can be reported to the UCSD Statin Study, and to the FDA.  The FDA form is unduly cumbersone and frankly, unless you nearly died, it probably isn't worth the time.  The UCSD Statin Study questionnaire is very thorough... and as soon as I get some time I'm planning to report my experiences with statins to them.

    I am not optimistic that doing either of the above will change the statistical misinformation out there on statin side effects.  The pharmaceutical giants have too many billions at stake to ever allow this information to attain credibility.  Their advertising billions shout otherwise...

    Great meds, IF they work for you without problems.  For me they appear to be deadly, so I think I'll just stick with the other strategies, including niacin, fish oil, etc., etc. that I've learned through TYP.

    madcook

  • madcook

    2/17/2007 5:33:00 PM |

    I have to chime in here regarding Cindy's comment on statins:

    I dutifully tried for nearly two years to tolerate the various statins prescribed by my doctor.  The deep muscle aches and spasms were nearly unbearable... getting far worse when my "numbers" still weren't right and he decided to DOUBLE my dosage of Vytorin (Zocor + Zetia) from 10/20 to 10/40.  What resulted was a true nightmare for me.  I terminated this med when I had such severe muscle aching, spasms and dis-coordination that navigating up a flight of stairs was nearly impossible.  Not only that, but my memory was (fortunately temporarily) impaired, and I can remember little from a three month period of time.  Interestingly my CK was never elevated and this all happened while taking 200mgs. daily of a very reputable Co -Q10 formulation.  Cessation of the Vytorin saw the aches subside within 2 or 3 days and full mental clarity resumed within a week.  I was lucky.

    My doctor stated that there were three other statins we hadn't yet tried... fat chance doc!

    What chaps me is that the pharmaceutical companies continue to state that there is only a small percentage of patients who have side effects.  In practice, LOTS of people have problems tolerating statins, BUT these things never are reported, certainly mine wasn't by my doctor.

    Side effects can be reported to the UCSD Statin Study, and to the FDA.  The FDA form is unduly cumbersone and frankly, unless you nearly died, it probably isn't worth the time.  The UCSD Statin Study questionnaire is very thorough... and as soon as I get some time I'm planning to report my experiences with statins to them.

    I am not optimistic that doing either of the above will change the statistical misinformation out there on statin side effects.  The pharmaceutical giants have too many billions at stake to ever allow this information to attain credibility.  Their advertising billions shout otherwise...

    Great meds, IF they work for you without problems.  For me they appear to be deadly, so I think I'll just stick with the other strategies, including niacin, fish oil, etc., etc. that I've learned through TYP.

    madcook

  • John Townsend

    2/17/2007 8:05:00 PM |

    RE: Madcook's comment "Side effects can be reported to the UCSD Statin Study, and to the FDA. "

    I'm wondering if the 'UCSD Statin Study' provide summary reports on submission findings?

    BTW, his note is a very interesting personal account which echos mine to a certain extent, albeit I'm seemingly in the early stages. I'm starting to have pretty severe shoulder pain coming out of nowhere after six mths on Zocor. I've started taking Q-10 (re: your rec) to see if it helps. Previously my reaction to Lipidor was almost immediate with severe skin rash symptoms.

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