Heart scan curiosities 1

Heart scans often reveal more than coronary plaque. From time to time, I'll show some curious findings that people have displayed during routine heart scans.

This 65-year old man had a relatively low heart scan score of 73, but showed an impressive quantity of calcification of his pericardium, the usually soft-tissue sack that encases the heart. The calcified pericardium is the white arcs that surround the heart in the center of the image.



Thankfully, because he's without any symptoms of breathlessness, excessive fatigue, or leg swelling, he won't need to have it surgically corrected. When the pericardium becomes rigid and encircles the heart, it can literally squeeze the heart, a condition called "constrictive pericarditis". The surgery is pretty awful.

This man's calcified pericardium likely resulted from one or more viral infections over his lifetime.

Annual physical

A judge who lives in my neighborhood was found dead in his bed this week from a heart attack. He was 49 years old. His teenage kids found him and performed CPR, but he was cold and long-gone by then.

A close friend of the judge told me that he'd passed an annual physical just weeks before.

This sort of tragedy shouldn't happen. It is easily--easily--preventable. Had this man undergone a heart scan, a score of at least 400 if not >1000 would have been uncovered, and appropriate preventive action could have been taken. The conversation could have centered around the strategies to correct the patterns that triggered his plaque and how he could reduce his score.

Of course, hospitals make use of stories like this to fuel fear that brings hordes to their wards for procedures. Would the judge have required a procedure to save his life, had his heart disease been diagnosed at his annual physical? Not necessarily. Hospitals and cardiologists would try to persuade you that procedures have an impact on mortality. This is simply not true. In fact, the mortality benefits of procedures are questionable except in the midst of acute illness (e.g., unstable chest pain symptoms or heart attack).

Don't be falsely reassured by passing a physical. A physical does nothing to screen you for heart disease. An EKG and stress test, if included, is a lame excuse for heart disease screening. Remember that a stress test is a test of coronary blood flow, not for the presence of coronary plaque. The unfortunate judge most likely had a 30% "blockage" that did not block flow, but ruptured and closed an artery off sometime in the night when he died. A stress test even on the day of his death would not have predicted this.

A CT heart scan would have uncovered it easily, unequivocally, safely.

A curious case of regression

Randi came to me at age 43. Before I'd met her, she'd undergone two heart scans about one year apart. The initial score was 57--not terribly high, but very high for a 41-year old, pre-menopausal female. Recall that rarely do women have any heart scan score above zero before age 50. Randi's 2nd scan had yielded a score of 72, a 27% increase.

Randi even had her lipoproteins assessed and she had the dreaded Lp(a). So when I met her, we discussed the possible choices in Lp(a) treatment: niacin and estrogens as primary treatment, along with LDL reduction to rock-bottom numbers, along with adjunctive DHEA, almonds, ground flaxseed, and fish oil. Sandi was okay with the adjunctive treatments and was already slender and active (BMI <25), and did not show Lp(a)'s evil partner, small LDL. But Randi had no interest in estrogens, even bio-identical preparations, because of the usual uncertainties associated with estrogen replacement. She also proved to be one of the people truly intolerant to anything but the most minute dose of niacin, experiencing prolonged flushing and abdominal cramps with any dose >250 mg.

Randi even attempted a trial of the Mathias Rath concoction of high-dose vitamin C, lysine, and proline as treatment for Lp(a), but we saw no effect on Lp(a).

Unfortunately, this left Randi's Lp(a) essentially uncorrected. Another scan one year later: 90, another 25% increase. 18 months after that, another scan: 120, a 30% increase.

Now 47-years old, Randi had resigned herself to not being able to control her plaque. We'd run out of options. At that point, I'd started to have everyone's vitamin D blood level assessed and then replaced with vitamin D. I did this with Randi, too.

A year after her last scan, she underwent another. The score: 92, a 23% reduction--substantial reversal following a course of unrelenting progression.

Randi and I, of course, both rejoiced with this unexpected success. But it raised some interesting questions: How important is Lp(a) when vitamin D is normalized and small LDL is not a part of the picture? How consistent with regression be with this strategy over time? Would normalization of vitamin D have stopped plaque from becoming established in the first place?

I hope these issues will clarify over time. For now, I'm thrilled with Randi's success. She remains on her present, "incomplete", though successful program.

Note: I would not ordinarily advise a young woman to undergo serial heart scanning with this frequency. Randi had unusual access to a scan center through a relationship with the staff. I am nonetheless grateful for the lessons her experience have taught us.

Fortune teller

Whenever your doctor uses your cholesterol values--total, LDL, HDL, triglycerides--to judge your heart disease risk, he/she is trying to act as your fortune teller.

In some states, fortune telling is illegal, a misdemeanor. The New York State lawbooks say:

A person is guilty of fortune telling when, for a fee or compensation which he directly or indirectly solicits or receives, he claims or pretends to tell fortunes, or holds himself out as being able, by claimed or pretended use of occult powers, to answer questions or give advice on personal matters or to exorcise, influence or affect evil spirits or curses; except that this section does not apply to a person who engages in the aforedescribed conduct as part of a show or exhibition solely for the purpose of entertainment or amusement.
(Source : Wikipedia)

Rather than occult powers, your physician claims to use "medical judgement" to tell your fortune. Except for that distinction, it might be construed as a misdemeanor.


Let's take three typical examples:

58-year old Laura has a high LDL of 195 mg/dl. Her HDL is 52 mg/dl, triglycerides 197 mg/dl. Does she have heart disease?

51-year old Jonathan has an LDL of 174 mg/dl, HDL 34 mg/dl, triglycerides 156 mg/dl. Does Jonathan have heart disease?

71-year old Marian has an LDL cholesterol of 135 mg/dl, HDL 84 mg/dl, triglycerides of 67 mg/dl.

None of the three have symptoms. They all feel well. Nobody is taking a statin cholesterol drug or other agent that would modify the numbers. Jonathan is around 30 lbs overweight. Nobody has an impressive family history of heart disease.

Can you tell who has heart disease and who doesn't? If you can, you're smarter than I am, because I certainly can't tell. But your doctor tries to divine your future by looking at these numbers.

Do they know something that we don't know? No. It's a crude odds game, a guessing game. A guessing game that frequently comes up on the losing end.

These are three real people. Laura, despite her high LDL, has no identifiable coronary heart disease. Jonathan has advanced coronary disease. These were his numbers just prior to his stent. Marian has a moderate quantity revealed by a CT heart scan score of 419.

Don't even try predicting your future from your cholesterol numbers--it simply can't be done. Every day, I see patients and physicians beating their heads over this dilemma. Telling your fortune using pretended occult powers is illegal. Telling your fortune using cholesterol numbers should be, too.

If you want to know if you have coronary plaque, that's the role of the CT heart scan. Plain and simple.

Heart scan score drops like a stone

Matt was dumbfounded when he found out about his heart scan score of 317 in the summer of 2005.

Earlier that year he'd unintentionally lost 20 lbs. in the space of two months and was feeling awful. He was diagnosed with diabetes and put on several medications. He told me that the heart scan score was just adding insult to injury.

As you'd expect in someone with diabetes, Matt had a low HDL, increased triglycerides, and small LDL. Blood pressure and inflammation (C-reactive protein) were issues as well.

Matt's primary care physician had put him on a statin cholesterol drug as soon as he heard about Matt's heart scan score, so we kept this going. What Matt's primary care physician didn't know was that his "true" LDL had been much higher than the conventional calculated LDL had suggested, so the statin agent was a reasonable solution. (Matt was also not terribly motivated to make dramatic changes in lifestyle or food choices. The statin drug was a compromise.)

We added fish oil and vitamin D to his regimen. Though recent data have cast doubt on the value of treating homocysteine levels of around 12.5, Matt's much higher value of 28 was treated with vitamins B6, B12, and folic acid, with a resultant homocysteine of 7.6.

17 months into the Track Your Plaque approach, and Matt's repeat heart scan score: 244, a 23% reduction.

How's that for an early Christmas gift?

"You don't have a uterus. You don't need progesterone"

I was talking with a hospital nurse recently who told me about her lack of energy, blue moods, and other assorted complaints. At age 49, she was exasperated. So I suggested that she ask her gynecologist about progesterone cream.

The gynecologist advised her, "You don't have a uterus. You don't need progesterone." He went on to explain that the only reason to take progesterone was to prevent uterine cancer caused by estrogen.

Then what about progesterone's weight loss benefits? It's effects on increased energy, improved mood, deeper sleep? These benefits, of course, have nothing to do with the uterus.

I've witnessed these benefits in women many times, both in the peri-menopausal period (which starts around your late 30's) and menopause.

Why talk about progesterone when our focus is heart disease and reduction of heart scan scores? Because if progesterone in a woman helps her feel better, more upbeat, and accelerates weight loss, she's more likely to succeed in her plaque-control program.

For additional comments on progesterone, read the Track Your Plaque interview with women's hormone expert, Dr. Nisha Jackson, Females, hormones, and weight control:
An interview with Dr. Nisha Jackson
found at http://www.cureality.com/library/fl_04-008njacksonhormones.asp. Dr. Jackson also has a book available called "The Hormone Survival Guide to Perimenopause".







Or, read Dr. John Lee's pioneering books, What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Menopause: The Breakthrough Book on Natural Hormone Balance and What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Premenopause: Balance Your Hormones and Your Life from Thirty to Fifty . (An edition that combines the two books is available, also.)

Take a niacin "vacation"

I've been seeing a curious niacin phenomenon that has not, to my knowledge, been reported anywhere in the medical literature.

People with lipoprotein(a), or Lp(a), are best treated with niacin, particularly given the relative lack of other effective therapies. I now have seen approximately 10 people with great initial responses to niacin, only to observe Lp(a) levels slowly drift back up to the starting level over a period of 2-3 years.

In other words, if starting Lp(a) is 200 nmol/l (approximately 80 mg/dl), drops to 70 nmol/l on niacin. Then, over 2-3 years of treatment, it drifts back to 200 nmol/l. Very frustrating.

Somehow, your body's Lp(a) manufacturing mechanism circumvents the niacin, sort of like antibiotic resistance (without the bacteria, of course).

My response to this, though untested, is to have people take an occasional "niacin vacation". I don't mean take a trip to the Bahamas while on niacin. I mean take 2 weeks off from niacin every three months or so. My hope is that the occasional vacation from niacin will allow the body to continue to respond and suppress "resistance". When resuming niacin, you may have to escalate the dose gradually to avoid re-provoking the "flush".

The same "resistance" seems to develop to testosterone in males: an initial drop followed by a gradual increase. Curiously, I've not seen this in females with estrogens, which seems to generate a durable Lp(a) suppressing effect. For this reason, an occasional testosterone "vacation" might also be considered.

So far, I've advised several people to try this. The long-term success or failure, however, is uncertain. I know of no other solutions, however.

If you have Lp(a) and are on long-term niacin, you should consider talking about this issue with your physician. Like many aspects of Lp(a), while fascinating in its complexity, much remains uncertain. Stay tuned.

When LDL is more than meets the eye

Jerry wanted to know what to do with his LDL cholesterol of 112 mg/dl. "My doctor said that it's not high but it could be better."

So I asked him what the other numbers on his lipid panel showed. He pulled out the results:

LDL cholesterol 112 mg/dl

HDL 32 mg/dl

Triglycerides 159 mg/dl


I pointed out to Jerry that, given the low HDL and high triglycerides, his calculated LDL of 112 was likely inaccurate. In fact, if measured, LDL was probably more like 140-180 mg/dl. LDL particles were also virtually guaranteed to be small, since low HDL and small LDL usually go hand-in-hand (though small LDL can still occur with a good HDL).

So Jerry's LDL is really much higher than it appears. To prove it, Jerry will require an additional test, preferably one in which LDL is measured, such as LDL particle number (NMR), apoprotein B, or "direct" LDL.

It's really quite simple. Jerry likely has a high number of LDL particles that are too small. This pattern confers a three- to six-fold increased risk for heart disease.

Treatment requires more than just reducing LDL. Small LDL--an important component of this pattern, responds, for instance, to a reduction in processed carbohydrates like wheat products (breads, breakfast cereals, pretzels, etc.), NOT to a low-fat diet. Weight loss to ideal weight, especially loss of abdominal fat, will yield huge improvements in these numbers. Niacin may be a necessary component of Jerry's treatment program, since it increases LDL size and raises HDL.

For more discussion on measures superior to LDL cholesterol, see my upcoming editorial, Let Dr. Friedewald Lie in Peace (an expansion of a previous Heart Scan Blog). It will be posted on the Cardiologist on Call column on the Track Your Plaque website within the next week.)

Oil-based vitamin D


As time passes, I gain greater and greater respect for the power of restoring vitamin D blood levels to normal, i.e. 50-70 ng/ml. Just yesterday, I saw several people with blood levels of <10 ng/ml--severe deficiency.

Vitamin D deficiency this severe poses long-term risk for osteoporosis, arthritis, colon cancer, prostate cancer, inflammatory diseases, diabetes, and heart disease. Vitamin D appears to make coronary plaque reversal--reduction of your heart scan score--easier and faster.

But it is important that you take the right kind of vitamin D. Several of the people I saw yesterday with vitamin D levels of somebody living in total darkness were taking vitamin D, but they were taking tablets. Tablets are the wrong form. Powder-based tablets, in my experience, yield little or no rise in blood levels. Some preparations generate a small rise but the dose required is huge.

If you're going to take vitamin D, take a preparation that yields genuine and substantial rises in blood levels. This requires an oil-based capsule. I commonly see blood levels of 25-OH-vitamin D3 rise from, say, 10 ng/dl to 60 ng/ml when oil-based capsules are taken.

The most common dose I prescribe to patients is 2000 units per day to females, 3000-4000 units per day to males in non-sun exposed months. Ideally, your dose is adjusted to blood levels.

The Vitamin Shoppe preparation pictured here is one I've used successfully and generates bona fide rises in blood levels. And it costs around $5. Just be sure the preparation you buy is oil-based.

For rapid success, try the "fast" track

Have you tried fasting?

Before your eyes glaze over, let me tell you what I mean. I don't mean a water-only fast for two weeks while you drool over all the temptations around you and you feel sorry for yourself.

I also don't mean the juice fasts that some people use that turn into fruit juice fasts of pure sugar.

Here's another way to do it. Usually, 48 hours of doing this will yield several benefits:

--Weight loss of 1 lb. You will likely experience an even greater weight loss of 2-4 lbs, but much of this will be water loss.

--If you're like me and share a heightened sensitivity to sugars and carbohydrates (like wheat), you may find out just how awful you feel when you eat certain foods. Many people tell me they feel absolutely wonderful when they fast--clearer thinking, increased energy, improved mood. Not the constant gnawing urge to eat they expected.

--After your fast is over, you look back and realize just what large portions of food you were eating. You'll be content with smaller quantities--and enjoy it more.


The "fast" I've used successfully includes two foods:

1) Vegetable juices--that you either juice yourself or purchase. V8 or its equivalent works pretty well. Though purchased V8 is not the best, it's better than nothing and does work reasonably well. If you juice your own vegetable juices, watch out for the diarrhea if you're unaccustomed to vegetable juices. Four 8 oz glasses per day works well.

2) Soy milk--for a source of protein and modest quantity of sugar and fat. I like the Light Silk Soymilk (Vanilla) which contains 80 calories, 2 g fat (0.5 g monounsaturated), 7 g sugar, 6 g protein per 8 oz glass. Four 8 oz glasses of soymilk also work well. In my neighborhood, 8th Continent is another good choice.


Sip both of these throughout the day. Of course, drink water in unrestricted amounts.

What can you expect in your coronary plaque control/heart scan score reversal program? When the fast is over, a rise in HDL, reduction in small LDL, reduction in triglycerides, reduction in blood sugar and insulin, and a smaller tummy. This strategy can be useful to kick-start weight loss efforts or as a periodic way to maintain control over weight and lipid/lipoprotein patterns.


Nutritional Composition Silk Soymilk--Vanilla

Nutrition Facts
Serving Size 1 cup (240mL)
Servings per container 8 H/G OR 4 QT

Amount per Serving

Calories 70
Calories from Fat 20

% Daily Value
Total Fat 2g 3%
Saturated Fat 0g 0%
Trans Fat 0g
Polyunsaturated Fat 1g
Monounsaturated Fat 0.5g

Cholesterol 0mg 0%
Sodium 120mg 5%
Potassium 300mg 8%
Total Carbohydrates 8g 3%
Dietary Fiber 1g 4%
Sugars 6g
Protein 6g
Vitamin A 10%
Vitamin C 0%
Calcium 30%
Iron 6%
Vitamin D 30%
Riboflavin 30%
Folate 6%
Vitamin B12 50%
Magnesium 10%
Zinc 4%
Selenium 8%
Heart Scan Blog readers take impressive doses of omega-3s

Heart Scan Blog readers take impressive doses of omega-3s

Here are the results from the latest Heart Scan Blog poll:

What is your dose of omega-3 fatty acids, EPA + DHA, from fish oil? (Add up the total content of EPA + DHA per capsules; multiply times number of capsules.)

The 479 respondents answered:

Less than 1000 mg per day
65 (13%)

1000-1999 mg per day
145 (30%)

2000-2999 mg per day
98 (20%)

3000-3999 mg per day
79 (16%)

4000-4999 mg per day
33 (6%)

5000-5999 mg per day
14 (2%)

6000 mg per day or more
45 (9%)


The poll did not discriminate between who has heart disease, who does not; who is taking omega-3 fatty acids for high triglycerides or for reduction of lipoprotein(a) (which requires high doses), or other indications. So variation is to be expected.

We can say that nearly all respondents are likely receiving sufficient omega-3s to impact cardiovascular risk, since the benefits begin just by consuming fish twice per month. I am especially impressed at the proportion of respondents (53%) who take at least 2000 mg per day of EPA + DHA. It's clear that people are really embracing the notion that omega-3 fatty acids pack a real wallop of health benefits.

Because different people in different situations and lipid/lipoprotein patterns have different omega-3 needs, there is really no "right" or "wrong" dose of omega-3 fatty acids.

However, there are several factors that enter into knowing your ideal omega-3 intake:

--Higher triglycerides require higher doses
--Lipoprotein(a) can respond to higher doses
--Having coronary or carotid plaque means you desire a "therapeutic" dose of omega-3s, not just a "preventive" dose

Time is a factor, also: The longer you take omega-3s, the higher your blood levels go. You can accelerate the replacement of non-omega-3s with higher doses of omega-3s.

But too much is not good either. Some participants in Track Your Plaque, for instance, have experimented with very high doses of EPA + DHA in the 9000-10,000 per day range and witnessed dramatic increases in LDL.

Much of the uncertainty about dosing will also be cleared up as we get more experience with the Omega-3 RBC Index, i.e, the proportion of fatty acids in red blood cells that are omega-3s. We are currently aiming for an Omega-3 Index of 10%, given the heart attack reductions observed at this level.

Comments (28) -

  • Mike

    10/24/2009 3:52:01 PM |

    "But too much is not good either. Some participants in Track Your Plaque, for instance, have experimented with very high doses of EPA + DHA in the 9000-10,000 per day range and witnessed dramatic increases in LDL."

    So what?

    Wolf, Sears, and Poliquin recommend a high fish oil dose of 0.5g-1.9g EPA/DHA per 10lbs BW; this generally equates to 9-10g range.  All three have had amazing success with sedentary, chronically ill individuals and elite level athletes.

    I believe you yourself have stated in the past that fish oil causes a shift from VLDL and IDL to large particle LDL---a benign, if not beneficial action.

    So is the raising of LDL in high dose fish oil even a concern?  Some clarification on this would be appreciated.

  • Dr. B G

    10/24/2009 4:44:35 PM |

    Gosh... what an ODD response to fish oil! *wink* Do you actually believe it?  The reports would be contrary to the literature.  At least fish oil would have a strong role in stabilizing plaque and prevents soft ruptures in growing plaque (just like the Tokelau and Masai, high carb H-G societies)!

    Nowhere in the literature that I can find reports omega-3 increases dense LDL. Perhaps there is a TYP program-omega3 interaction? Or perhaps this only occurs in those who take high-dose statins and fail to convert to Pattern A (due to the overstatination phenomenon, as reported by researchers where TG <  150)) and complain annually about their EBCT plaque progression 10-25%??  I have tried to admonish the statin overuse but apparently that doen't go over well with this individuals as you are aware. Oh well.

    I have noticed that in the summers people's HDLs drift down.  Have you Dr. Davis in your practice?  I suspect a strong fruit-effect on splaying out dense LDL. Thoughts?

    IMHO many on the TYP members consume WAY way way too much grains, orange juice, oat bran, oatmeal, FRUITY SHAKES (e.g. JJ) and consume several servings of fruit all day (e.g Jeg). Do you think this may play any part of complaints related to higher dense LDL?  My first thoughts are ALWAYS... diet.  

    Your observastions are always UNIQUE!!  Thank you putting the highlights on the omega-3 index and the role of n-6 to n-3 on inflammation, the root cause of CAD!  You are certainly the biggest quantum EVOLVER.

    http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/search/label/Evolver

  • Dr. B G

    10/24/2009 4:44:35 PM |

    Gosh... what an ODD response to fish oil! *wink* Do you actually believe it?  The reports would be contrary to the literature.  At least fish oil would have a strong role in stabilizing plaque and prevents soft ruptures in growing plaque (just like the Tokelau and Masai, high carb H-G societies)!

    Nowhere in the literature that I can find reports omega-3 increases dense LDL. Perhaps there is a TYP program-omega3 interaction? Or perhaps this only occurs in those who take high-dose statins and fail to convert to Pattern A (due to the overstatination phenomenon, as reported by researchers where TG <  150)) and complain annually about their EBCT plaque progression 10-25%??  I have tried to admonish the statin overuse but apparently that doen't go over well with this individuals as you are aware. Oh well.

    I have noticed that in the summers people's HDLs drift down.  Have you Dr. Davis in your practice?  I suspect a strong fruit-effect on splaying out dense LDL. Thoughts?

    IMHO many on the TYP members consume WAY way way too much grains, orange juice, oat bran, oatmeal, FRUITY SHAKES (e.g. JJ) and consume several servings of fruit all day (e.g Jeg). Do you think this may play any part of complaints related to higher dense LDL?  My first thoughts are ALWAYS... diet.  

    Your observastions are always UNIQUE!!  Thank you putting the highlights on the omega-3 index and the role of n-6 to n-3 on inflammation, the root cause of CAD!  You are certainly the biggest quantum EVOLVER.

    http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com/search/label/Evolver

  • TrueDharma

    10/24/2009 5:50:45 PM |

    My EFA results showed an Omega3 index of 11.7% and a Omega 6:3 ratio of 2.3/1. I supplement with 1600mg EPA and 800mg DHA daily. I follow a low carb (high fat) I can't afford to eat "grass fed", but I do avoid processed foods whenever possible and my dietary fats are from coconut oil, lard, beef tallow, butter, olive oil and small amounts sesame oil. The Omega 3 Index test was a bit pricey, but...it did give me some comfort that I am on the right track.

  • Jae

    10/24/2009 5:53:26 PM |

    For those who witnessed an increase in LDL, what was the profile of small, dense VLDL vs large, fluffy VLDL reflected in the increase?

    Also, first-time commenter. Thank you for a great, informative blog.

  • Adam Wilk

    10/24/2009 8:59:52 PM |

    "But too much is not good either. Some participants in Track Your Plaque, for instance, have experimented with very high doses of EPA + DHA in the 9000-10,000 per day range and witnessed dramatic increases in LDL."

    I'm hoping (and wondering if...) that while those diligent enough to take that high a dose of omega-3's may have higher measured LDL levels, they indeed have much larger, fluffier particles now than when they began the megadosing.  That would be something marvelous to hear.
    Good stuff here, as usual!
    -Adam

  • Steven Horvitz, D.O.

    10/24/2009 9:35:20 PM |

    If one's LDL's raise dramatically on omega-3's, without the corresponding increase in hdl, or decrease in trigs, is it better to lower the omega 3's?

    Ex:

    pre-omega
    tc 240
    hdl 45
    ldl 165
    tg 70

    during 2000mg omega-3's
    tc 320
    hdl 58
    ldl 240
    tg 90

    Also, the pattern size of the ldl's are type a with a low carb, no grain diet.

  • homertobias

    10/24/2009 11:29:56 PM |

    I'd very much like to know what subfraction of LDL was elevated in the TYP followers on 9,000 plus omega 3's a day.  My experience is that large fluffy LDL increases but not small dense.

  • Kevin

    10/25/2009 8:36:26 AM |

    What about lipid peroxidation on high dose of fish oil?

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/25/2009 2:52:27 PM |

    The form of LDL that increases depends.

    It seems to depend on the genetic basis for small LDL. In other words, if the triggers of small LDL have been removed along with other efforts aimed at reducing small LDL like niacin, and there is no genetic basis for small LDL, then large LDL increases.

    If small LDL is genetically programmed (a lot more common than many think), then small LDL can increase explosively.  

    Having performed many thousands of lipoprotein panels, the latter situation in which small LDL increases is worrisome.

    I am unsure of the implications of the first situation. Sure, we can extrapolate and speculate that it might not be related to increased risk. But I am not willing to gamble someone's health and life on pure speculation with no human data.

  • homertobias

    10/25/2009 5:07:57 PM |

    The only references to an increase in LDLC with fish oil supplementation is from WS Harris who authors 95% of the omega 3 index studies including a 2008 review which concludes that the omega 3 index is superior to omega 3/omega 6 ratio.  When 95% of literature comes from one man who promotes a pricey lab test I can't help but wonder if he gets part of the profits. I have no data to say he does though.

    He has two 1997 publications,one showing that Omnacor given at 4 g epa/dha a day raised ldlc by 10%. 1997 was the predawn era of advanced lipids.  In his second publication individuals with severe hypertriglyceridemia (baseline fasting levels on statins of 500 to 2000) did have a 32% rise in LDLC.  
    Harris has ties to Big Pharma (the maker of Lovasa/Omnacor) and to Monsanto.
    Data that I can easily access ascide from Harris shows effecacy of fish oil supplementation up to 4 grams of epa/dha a day.  5 grams a day for plaque stabilization/ antiinflammatory effect.  9 or 10 grams a day only in obese heart failure patients.  
    My bottom line:  if your baseline tg's are 500-2000, watch out for your ldlp on high dose fish oil.  If you are an obese heart failure patient, lose weight.

  • William Trumbower

    10/25/2009 5:31:50 PM |

    I believe that when people use theraputic levels of fish oil (more than 3gm EPA=DHA)  they should follow their omega profile and lipoprotein analysis closely.  It is possible to push the eicosanoid synthesis pathways toward the arachadonic acid side depending on your diet.   Once you know your optimal dose, then you can adjust it up in certain circumstances.  I attended a football tailgate and found some of the mixed nuts were cooked in soy oil, so I took an extra dose of fishoil when I got home to compensate.

  • Mike

    10/25/2009 5:40:54 PM |

    Thanks for your thoughts on this.  Regarding LDL particle size, how dependable would TG/HDL ratio be?  Sears indicates a ratio less than 2 indicates large benign LDL.  In my own experience over the past few years, as I've increased my fish oil intake (along with a Paleo diet) my HDL has gone up, my LDL has gone up, and my TGs have decreased.

  • Boris

    10/26/2009 1:30:58 AM |

    I have increased my intake of omega-3 since I answered the poll. My problem was that I couldn't take it all at once. Too much fish oil gave me a super upset stomach. Granted, it was the impure Nature Made brand sold at Walmart (34% pure). Now that I am using Omapure, I take one capsule with every meal and then one before bed time. It 6x more expensive than the Nature Made junk but I'm not getting sick from it.

    Does it matter that I break up my intake over the course of the day rather than swallow four capsules all at once?

  • Anonymous

    10/26/2009 1:49:07 AM |

    great information here, thanks all.

    To follow on Dr.BG's note on statin overuse :  there is an interesting presentation of baylor college's lipidsonline.org with discussion of guidelines for statin dosage.  The presenter notes how very little value is obtained from subsequent doubling of a statin dose and the risks for side effects.

    http://www.lipidsonline.org/slides/slide01.cfm?tk=82

    Dr. D.  Thank you for the caution on fish oil. I take 1650mgs EPA/DHA twice per day.  Might be a good idea to cut out a dose if I eat salmon or other oily fish.

    Would love to see more info on MK4/Mk7 K2 and MCFAs like coconut oil.

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/26/2009 1:58:12 AM |

    Hi, Mike--

    While the Triglyceride/HDL ratio can serve as a useful measure of small LDL in a population, it performs poorly when applied to specific individuals. This is because small LDl, while influenced by the situation creating low HDL and high triglycerides, can also behave independently.

    Small LDL is, in my view, best measured specifically.

  • Ross

    10/26/2009 5:52:24 AM |

    It's pretty straightforward to end up in the middle of the pack on that poll.  But don't take gels or you'll be there all day.  One tablespoon of Carlson's Finest has 4800mg O-3's with 2400mg EPA and 1500mg DHA.  One swallow just as I'm sitting down to breakfast makes for a great start to every day.

  • Anonymous

    10/26/2009 1:54:50 PM |

    I was told than an ApoE 4 Patient should not be on therapeutic doses of fish oil (for reasons which you have stated- raising LDL).

  • homertobias

    10/26/2009 2:46:23 PM |

    Dr Davis:

    I would like to know which WS Harris 2008 you referenced and the reference for the females in the Harvard School of Public Health please.
    I also would like to know if there was a correlation between baseline tg levels and those who experienced a more marked elevation of sd LDL on fish oil.

  • homertobias

    10/26/2009 4:14:20 PM |

    I guess that this is my day to ask you questions.
    When you read a MDCT, do you also measure pericardial fat?
    What do you think of Dr. Ding's new MESA findings re pericardial fat.  Thanks in advance.

  • Alan S David

    10/26/2009 6:16:55 PM |

    I take 6000 units daily or more, but I also consume a few tablespoons of ground flax seed daily as well.
    AND still eat fish a few times a week, especially oil rich sardines.

  • jegesq

    10/26/2009 9:28:03 PM |

    Homertobias:

    Lots of interesting work being done on pericardial adipose tissue (PAT) and using CT imaging done in conjunction with CAC scoring to more precisely determine the relationship between PAT and the development of CAD and calcified plaques, i.e., in order to more precisely "score" the level of PAT and to determine association and/or causality with calcific lesions.

    Dr. Lerber at University Hospital in Munich, Germany has observed that PAT accumulation precedes the development of calcified plaques, that increased volume of PAT are associated with reduced levels of  adiponectin and higher CRP.   So the idea is that with more precise measurements and concomittant imaging of both PAT and CAC, we might be able to better detect the presence of disease in an earlier stage.   There is also some push among those doing such research to link PAT thickness assessment with administering routine echo stress testing but this hasn't gained much traction yet other than in a small circle of folks.   The hope though is that PAT can also be used as another surrogate marker for diagnosing preclinical atherosclerosis.

    But as of now, I don't think anyone who does a routine CAC scan, whether with MDCT or EBT is doing any form of assessment of PAT, at least not until there is more data on the reliability of using this as a clinical marker of disease.

    Personally, I think there's a lot of interesting info that can come from this, and the idea of deposition of fat into muscle tissue and necrosis of that tissue, inflammation and the relation to levels of saturated fats consumed from dietary sources is an area that is just begging to be better researched.

    Oh, and by the way, don't believe everything you read here from BG about what foods I consume, how much statin I take, or much else when it comes to me.  In fact, I'd prefer that she simply not make references to me in her writings wherever they appear.  This will obviate the need for me to continue to correct her misstatements about me, my lipids, and drug and supplement usage, as well as the fact that she continues to misrepresent that I have not achieved plaque stability and/or demonstrated regression through serial MDCT CAC scoring over a period of three years despite very low dose use of rosuvastatin.

  • jegesq

    10/27/2009 12:16:24 AM |

    A correction....  My serial scan scores show that I have achieved stability and optimally regression of coronary calcium.   My point is that Dr. BG continues to claim that those taking rosuvastatin at doses of ~10mg daily cannot possibly achieve regression on EBT/MCDT scanning, and that just isn't so.

    I happen to be one of those whom I believe Dr. Davis was referring to with "too much of a good thing" with reference to EPA/DHA dosing.  My dose was upped from ~1-2 grams per day (of EPA/DHA) to ~10 grams based on recommendations from Dr. BG.  This occurred in or around December 2008 and continued until very recently. Based on five consecutive, quarterly NMR's and VAP's, my sdLDL-P remained at >85% of LDL-P, and my trigs went from ~40 to ~75, and, more significantly, my overall LDL-P rose from ~1000 to ~1300.   No other significant impacts were noted, other than CRP dropping to 0.7, which I attribute not to the n-3's, but instead to continued use of rosuvastatin together with combined high dosing of both boswellia and 5-Loxin and large doses of aspirin (taken specifically as an anti-inflammatory due to nerve and muscle pain from a herniated cervical disc in the month immediately prior to the last VAP testing).

    The point though is that in some, excess fish oil can convert to higher trigs and higher LDL, and will not improve the concentration or ratios of sdLDL-P/LDL-P.

    Yes, n=1, but I'm the n, so that's really most important to me, not what Wolf, Sears or anyone else has to say about this.  After all, what we're after is personalized medicine, not epidemiological observations that may be valid in large population studies but which may have no relevance to a particular individual.

  • homertobias

    10/27/2009 4:05:13 PM |

    Hi JEG,
    Thanks for the references.  I am truly upset that you andBG seem to be having a cybertiff.  She has a big heart, alot of enthusiasm, alot of intelligence and makes me laugh. You are a sincere intellectual, very bright, searching for truth in medicine and are doing a good job of it.  I can learn from both of you and want to continue to do so.
    As to omega 3 and dosage.  I can't seem to find any solid benefit to doses over 4g to maybe 5g per day. This seems to max out tg lowering, ldl improvement in particle size, minimal increase in hdl, bp lowering, improvement in tnf alpha, interleukin 6.  Reports on irs effect on HSCRP are conflicting.  One interesting report, Thies F, in Lancet 2003 took 188 patients scheduled for carotid endarterectomy and treated them with either DHA/EPA, sunflower oil, or placebo for an average duration of 42 days prior to surgery.  There was a significant difference in thickness of the fibrous cap over the plaque,the degree of monocyte  infiltration of the fibrous cap, percent DHA etc.  This directly addresses plaque stability.  I love it.

  • Dr. B G

    10/30/2009 5:06:04 AM |

    Homertobias,

    That is a great plaque stablization article -- will have to ck out!



    Jeq,

    I must be correct again as indicated by the length and duration of the post!

    Let me get this straight -- the lipoproteins were less than desirable for both you and JJ/Jim for the past 2008 to 2009 (you reported increased sdLDL?), yet both of you posted regression recently on BOTH of your EBCT/MDCT results....  

    Gosh... I wonder if the high dose fish oil had anything to do with it?

    EPA DHA get infiltrated directly locally into calcified plaque and has immense immeasurable benefits for regression BEYOND lipoproteins.  I think you have seen some them, personally IMHO.

    -G

  • Dr. B G

    10/30/2009 5:06:04 AM |

    Homertobias,

    That is a great plaque stablization article -- will have to ck out!



    Jeq,

    I must be correct again as indicated by the length and duration of the post!

    Let me get this straight -- the lipoproteins were less than desirable for both you and JJ/Jim for the past 2008 to 2009 (you reported increased sdLDL?), yet both of you posted regression recently on BOTH of your EBCT/MDCT results....  

    Gosh... I wonder if the high dose fish oil had anything to do with it?

    EPA DHA get infiltrated directly locally into calcified plaque and has immense immeasurable benefits for regression BEYOND lipoproteins.  I think you have seen some them, personally IMHO.

    -G

  • Dr. B G

    10/30/2009 5:14:21 AM |

    By the way, congratulations to you two gentleman, JJ and Jeg, for achieving regression with Pattern B! I have looked for regression in Pattern B forum posters, but turned up none. You two are the FIRST at TYP that I can find...

    Do you think omega-3 had any role in your success since that appears to be the common link as well as major supplement change you guys identified?

    I wonder what the omega-6:3 ratio is now off the fish oil?

  • Dr. B G

    10/30/2009 5:14:21 AM |

    By the way, congratulations to you two gentleman, JJ and Jeg, for achieving regression with Pattern B! I have looked for regression in Pattern B forum posters, but turned up none. You two are the FIRST at TYP that I can find...

    Do you think omega-3 had any role in your success since that appears to be the common link as well as major supplement change you guys identified?

    I wonder what the omega-6:3 ratio is now off the fish oil?

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