Homocysteine and coronary plaque

If you’ve watched the news over the past year, you know that doubt has been cast over the idea that reducing homocysteine blood levels with high doses of B vitamins (B6, B12, and folic acid, or B9) results in reduced risk for heart attack.

Is the homocysteine concept dead? Shall we empty our bottles of costly B vitamins into the trash and move on?

I don’t think so. As detailed in one of our Track Your Plaque Special Reports from a few months ago, I think the homocysteine issue still deserves lots of respect and further investigation. After all, hundreds of clinical studies have connected higher homocysteine levels with greater risk for heart disease, stroke, and aneurysm. Numerous studies, for example, have repeatedly and consistently demonstrated a tripling of heart attack risk when homocysteine levels exceed 14 ?mol/l. Can we dismiss this association because several more recent studies—NORVIT, HOPE, and VISP—suggested that, when starting homocysteine levels are 12.5, that B vitamin supplementation does not reduce heart attack risk?

I think there’s lots more to know about the homocysteine connection. That said, I have never seen a patient who I thought had heart disease strictly because homocysteine was increased.

I believe that we can at least use homocysteine as an index of lifestyle: the higher the homocysteine, the poorer the diet, or the less effective the absorption of B vitamins (especially vitamins B12 and folic acid). Homocysteine levels of <9 micromol/l suggest both adequate intake and absorption of these B vitamins.

If homocysteine is tightly connected with risk for heart disease, yet supplementation of B vitamins fails to reduce risk, might there be another means of connection? Or, could both homocysteine and heart disease be connected in some way that has nothing to do with B vitamins?

Don’t close the book on homocysteine. Just because conventional experience fails to draw connection does not necessarily mean that none exists. If it’s any consolation, taking B vitamins has been correlated with better memory, concentration, and other health benefits, even if no reduction in heart disease develops.

Big heart scan scores drop

High heart scan scores of, say, greater than 1000 are more difficult to reduce than lower scores.

I learned this lesson early in the experience of trying to drop scores. In the first few years of trying to drop scores, I saw relatively modest scores of 20, 50, or 100 drop readily, even when the usual targets were not fully achieved, and even before the incorporation of some of the more exciting recent additions to the Track Your Plaque program, like vitamin D.

But big scores of 1000, 2000, or 3000 are a tougher nut to crack. In the first few years, what I usually saw was a slowing , or "deceleration," of growth from the expected rate of annual score increase of 30% that would continue for a year or two, followed by zero change. In the first year of effort, for example, a score increase of 18% was common. 10% was common in year two, then finally zero change in year three. Somehow, the more plaque you begin with, the more "momentum" in growth is present and the longer it takes to stop it. Kind of like stopping a compact car versus stopping a freight train.

But more recently, I'm seeing faster drops. Today, Charlie came to the office to discuss his second heart scan. 18 months earlier, Charlie's first scan showed a score of 3,112, high by anybody's standard.

His repeat score: 3,048. While the drop is relatively small on a percentage basis and may even fall within the expected rate of error for heart scans (which tends to be <2% at this high a score), I told Charlie that it still represented a huge success. Not only did he not increase his score by the expected 30% per year, he also brought a charging locomotive to a rapid stop.

Next year, Charlie is targeting a big drop. Given the tools he now has available, I'm optimistic that he will succeed.

Watch for the Track Your Plaque May, 2007 Newsletter in which we will detail Charlie's story further.

Does the American Heart Association diet reduce heart disease?

If you have a heart attack and land in the hospital where, invariably, you will have a heart procedure. Or, if you get a stent or coronary bypass operation, sometime before your discharge from the hospital, a well-meaning hospital staff dietitian will provide instruction in the American Heart Association (AHA) diet.

Does this diet reduce the risk of heart disease?

The answer depends on where you start. If you begin with a conventional American diet that is enormously influenced by convenience, food manufacturers like Nabisco, General Mills, Quaker Oats, ADM, and Cargill, or food distributors like McDonald’s, Pizza Hut, and Taco Bell, then the American Heart Association diet is indeed an improvement. But just a small one. If LDL cholesterol is the yardstick, the average reduction in LDL is between 10 and 15 mg/dl. This is the same amount of change you’d experience by adding 1 tablespoon of oat bran to your diet. Hardly worth boasting about. HDL, triglycerides, blood glucose, and body weight do not change.

The diet could be substantially better. After all, it’s become common knowledge that other diets, such as the so-called Mediterranean diet, the South Beach Diet, and similar broad projects result in far greater changes than the AHA diet dispensed by your hospital and cardiologist. These diets more effectively reduce LDL, raise HDL, reduce triglycerides, reduce C-reactive protein, reduce blood pressure. Diets like South Beach also yield substantial weight loss and reversal of diabetic tendencies, with the magnitude of benefit dependent on the amount of weight lost.

Why this stubborn adherence to the outdated concepts articulated in the AHA diet? Cardiologists would argue that insufficient data has been generated to permit widespread application of these diets. They also differ on whether they really work. Of course, the majority remain ignorant and dismiss them as fad diets.

A little digging into the financial disclosures of the AHA suggests another, more malignant influence: who is paying the bills? Until recently, drug manufacturers were major contributors to the AHA. However, more recently AHA administrators have become sensitive to the public perception that they might be nothing more than a voice box for the drug industry. They have since limited contributions from the drug companies to 8% of annual charitable revenues.

The drug manufacturers have been replaced by the food industry. In addition to food manufacturers that make the cereals on your grocery shelf, it includes the multi-national conglomerates that produce unimaginable revenues and carry enormous political clout, like ADM and Cargill. Ever wonder how it is that Honey Nut Cheerios received a “Heart Healthy” endorsement from the AHA?

The AHA diet does not provide the answers we’re looking for, not even close. It is a perversion from an organization that has its strings pulled by industry. The answers to health will not come from the AHA, AMA, the American College of Cardiology, the American Hospital Association, and it won’t come from your doctor. It won’t come from a titillating report on the evening news or Good Morning America. It will come from collective and expanding wisdom placed directly into the hands of the public. It will be untainted by the temptation of drug industry dollars. It will not be dirtied by million dollar contributions, or the multi-million dollar behind-closed-doors lobbying of the food manufacturers. It will come from the truth relayed to the healthcare-consuming public. I hope you recognize it when you see it.

If you want a healthy diet for your heart, throw away the pamphlets from the AHA unless you are partial to bread, breakfast cereals, corn, and the supporters of their misguided nutritional advice.

Vitamin K2 and coronary plaque

The vitamin K2 story, though still preliminary, is becoming increasingly interesting from the perspective of CT heart score reduction.

The origin of this concept came from some unexpected observations. One, the observation that osteoporosis (lack of bone calcium that leads to fractures) arises from deficiency of vitamin K2. Two, deficiency of K2 leads to unrestrained calcium deposition in animal models, leading to heart attack in just weeks.

Vitamin K2 has been largely ignored for years, since the more widely understood K1 is rarely deficient. K1 deficiency can occur from prolonged antibiotic use, or from severe malnutrition. But deficiency in otherwise well people is very uncommon. Vitamin K2, however, may be a different story. Deficiency may be common.

The Rotterdam Heart Study of cheese-eating Dutch showed that greater K2 intakes resulted in a halving of heart attacks. Cheese (traditional varieties, not Velveeta or other make-believe cheese products) is a modest source of K2, as is the Japanese native food, natto. (If you've ever seen natto, I dare you to eat it. I have a pretty strong stomach and curiousity for food, but natto is the one thing I could not eat--it is truly horrible.)

The weight of evidence suggests that vitamin K2 supplementation may prove to be a useful addition to your coronary plaque control program. Clearly, more data are needed, particulary therapeutic obserations, i.e., observing people who take dose X of a K2 prepartion and tracking some feedback measure, e.g., bone density, CT heart scan score, "events" like heart attack, etc.

Nonetheless, the K2 story is clearly worth reading about, perhaps even considering supplementation. Please watch for the Special Report on the www.cureality.com website in the coming days.

Exercise and blood pressure

The media has gotten a hold of a case report from the University of Maryland describing a 51-year old physician who, despite being a long distance runner, had a high heart scan score.

An example of the report can be found at

Heart Disease In A Marathon Runner: Is Too Much Exercise A Bad Thing?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/03/070315091100.htm in Science Daily.



"The mystery was all the more intriguing because his resting blood pressure and fasting cholesterol levels, the usual measures of cardiovascular health, were in the normal range."


When this man was put on a treadmill for a stress test, his blood pressure skyrocketed from a normal 118/78 to 230/78--extremely high, even for exercise. The physicians reporting the case raised the question of whether long-distance running represents a risk for heart disease and if the high blood pressure with exercise is a contributor or cause of the high heart scan score.

These are phenomena we are very familiar with. We have stressed the importance of exercise blood pressure as a trigger for coronary plaque for years. While 230/78 is clearly too high, we find that any blood pressure over 170/80 with exercise adds to the fire and can trigger plaque growth.

However, I think it is absurd to suggest that marathon running itself is a trigger of coronary plaque. I think it is far more likely that the person described in the report had lipoprotein(a), a potent trigger for both exercise-induced hypertension and high CT heart scan scores in seemingly well people. He likely also suffered from a deficiency of vitamin D deficiency, another contributor. There's no need to indict exercise.

If you are in the Track Your Plaque program, you know that stress tests are of questionable helpfulness for the detection of hidden heart disease. But they are useful for assessment of blood pressure responses during exercise. If BP exceeds 170/80 at 10 mets (a measure of exercise effort achieved by walking 3.4 mph at a 14% grade for 3 minutes), then blood pressure may be a contributor to your heart scan score.

"Fish oil is stupid"

"Fish oil is a waste of time and money. It's stupid. Just stop it."

So a patient of mine was advised by another physician when he complained that he occasionally experienced a fishy aftertaste.

This attitude perplexes me. After all the confirmatory data that support the enormous health benefits of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation, including the 11,000 participant GISSI-Prevenzione Trial, you'd think this attitude would be history. What's a little fish aftertaste when heart attack risk is slashed 28%?

Perhaps the tendency to pooh-pooh fish oil is because it's available as a nutritional supplement. This shouldn't make fish oil appear inconsequential. Far from it.

If you witness the extraordinary power for fish oil to reduce triglycerides, you will be immediately convinced of its effectiveness. The ability of omega-3 fatty acids from fish to eliminate intermediate-density lipoprotein (IDL), the persistent abnormal lipoprotein which signals an inability to clear dietary fats from the blood, can also convince you. More than 90% of people with excessive IDL have it completely eliminated by 4000-6000 mg of fish oil (providing 1200-1800 mg EPA + DHA) per day.

The fact that fish oil is available as a prescription "medication," as well as an over-the-counter supplement, causes some physicians to dismiss the power of the supplemental form. This is nonsense. The over-the-counter form is every bit as effective as the prescription form.

The makers of prescription Omacor also make the claim that their preparation is safer and purer. That may be true, but I'd like to see independent verification from the FDA, USDA, or an unbiased organization like Consumer Reports before I accept their marketing as fact--particularly at $120 to $240 per month! If Omacor proves to contain substantially less mercury and pesticide residues, then that will need to be factored in. (Please note that both Consumer Reports and Consumer Labs measured no substantial mercury or pesticide residues in their analyses of 16 and 41 brands, respectively.)

I try to persuade my colleagues that the idea of taking supplements is a wonderful trend that allows people to express ownership of their own health. What people need is guidance, not salesmanship for a more expensive version, nor dismissal of nutritional preparations that actually possess considerable benefits.

More Vitamin D and HDL

I’m seeing more and more of it and I am convinced that there is a relationship: significant boosts in HDL cholesterol from vitamin D supplementation.

To my knowledge this remains an undescribed and uncharacterized phenomenon. There have been several observers over the last two decades who have noticed that total cholesterol shows a seasonal fluctuation: cholesterol goes up in fall and winter, down in spring and summer; year in, year out. This phenomenon was unexplained but makes perfect sense if you factor in vitamin D fluctuations from sun exposure.

I have come across no other substantiating evidence about fluctuations of HDL. But I am convinced that I am seeing it. Replace vitamin D to a blood level of 50 ng/ml, and HDL goes up if it is low to begin with. If HDL is high to begin with, say, 63 mg/dl, it doesn’t seem to change.

But, say, starting HDL is 36 mg/dl. You take niacin, 1000 mg; reduce high-glycemic index foods like breakfast cereals, breads, cookies, bagels, and other processed carbohydrate foods; exercise four days a week; add a glass of red wine a day; even add 2 oz of dark chocolate. You shed 15 lbs towards your ideal weight. After 6 months, HDL: 46 mg/dl. Better but hardly great.

Add vitamin D at a dose of, say, 4000-6000 units per day (oil-based gelcap, of course!), and re-check HDL two or three months later: 65 mg/dl.

I’ve seen it happen over and over. It doens't occur in everybody but occurs with such frequency that it’s hard to ignore or attribute to something else. What I’m not clear about is whether this effect only occurs in the presence of the other strategies we use to raise HDL, a “facilitating” effect, or whether this is an independent benefit of HDL that would occur regardless of whatever else you do. Time will help clarify.

We are tracking our experience to see if it holds up, how, and to what degree on a more formal basis. Until then, a rising HDL is yet another reason—-among many!-—to be absolutely certain your 25-OH-vitamin D3 level is at 50 ng/ml or greater.

How high is an ideal vitamin D blood level? If 50 ng is good, is 60 or 70 ng even better? Probably not, but there are no data. We have to wait and see. Unlike a drug that enjoys plentiful “dose-response” data, there are no such observations for vitamin D into this higher, though still “physiologic,” range.

Thin ice

How long can an industry built on ignorance and deception continue its practices in the new Information Age?

I don’t think it can for long. I talk to hospital administrators who believe that their source of competition is the hospital across town, battling for the same patients. I speak to my colleagues, the cardiologists, who believe that the current model is sustainable—take every willing body to the catheterization laboratory or operating room for heart procedures, the revenue-generating engine of income and expanding heart programs.

I speak to primary care physicians, who are dumbfounded and perplexed and have no idea which way things are going. They are trapped in a peculiar position: most have signed contracts and are employees of the hospital. They are legally bound to support the cardiologists who take anybody possible to the catheterization laboratory or direct patients to other profit-making procedures.

Much of this system depends on the willingness of the participant, meaning you and the health care seeking public. What happens when the truth comes out and disseminates widely through the thinking populace? What happens to hospitals and physicians and the vast structures they’ve built when the bottom drops out for 50% of their “market?

The proverbial cow manure will hit the fan. Upheavals in the medical industry will rival the changes that the automobile or telephone brought early in the last century. Cardiologists, immense hospital heart programs, and the vast economic infrastructure they spawned will go the way of stage coach manufacturers and the telegraph.

What form will the broad exposure of detailed information in health take? I’m not sure, but it will certainly come. The collaborative efforts that created the Linux operating system and have challenged the monopoly of Microsoft Windows, or the emergence of the extraordinary Wikipedia as a repository of human knowledge that dwarfs the venerated Encylopedia Brittanica, will eventually overtake the American medical system, the heart disease industry in particular.

If you base your future on the welfare of your local hospital or the manufacturers of stents, operating room equipment for heart bypass, or similar industries, watch out. The ice is thin. And as the spring warms the air around you, it gets thinner.

The Track Your Plaque program is our first step in broadcasting the message of self-empowerment in heart health care and an attempt to wrestle control away from the profit-seeking forces that dominate. As we grow, we not only hope to broadcast the message more widely, but expand the message to other areas of health. I predict that the collaborative, let’s-all-pitch-in-and-help spirit of the Information Age, “version 2.0,” will spark the change.

Vitamin D and cancer

Although this is a Blog about heart scans and heart disease, I came across a helpful video from Dr. Joseph Mercola about vitamin D and cancer that's worth viewing. Though I do not agree with many of Dr. Mercola's on-the-edge views, he does come up with some good thoughts and, in this instance, a useful educational tool about vitamin D.

You can view his video (which he claims crashed his server, due to the excessive demand for downloads) by cutting and pasting the address into your URL bar (above):

http://v.mercola.com/blogs/public_blog/How-to-Reduce-Your-Risk-of-Cancer-By-50--8790.aspx

Also, for my many patients who I've directed to look in my Blog for Dr. Reinhold Vieth's webcast presentation on vitamin D, here's the address:

http://tinyurl.com/f93vl

Perhaps I carry on too much about vitamin D. But I've come to respect this "nutrient" as among the most powerful strategies I've seen for dramatically improving control over coronary plaque growth as well as other aspects of health, as Drs. Mercola and Vieth eloquently detail.

Lipoprotein(a), menopause, and andropause

Lipoprotein(a) is a curious lipoprotein. Not only is it a genetic pattern with numerous variations, it is also one that shows a predictable age-dependent rise.

Women in particular are prone to this effect, men to a lesser degree. As we age, many hormones recede, particularly growth hormone, testosterone, the estrogens (estradiol, estriol, estrone), progesterone, and DHEA, among others. This is not a disease but the process of senescence, or aging.

When we're young, estrogens, testosterone, and DHEA all exert suppressive effects to keep lipoprotein(a), Lp(a), at bay. But as a woman proceeds through her pre-menopausal and menopausal years, and as a male passes through his fourth decade, there is an accelerated decline of these hormones. As a result, Lp(a) crawls out of its cave and starts to sniff around.

Typically, a woman might have a Lp(a) of 75 nmol/l (approximately 30 mg/dl) at age 38. Ten years later, at age 48, her Lp(a) might be 125 nmol/l (app. 50 mg/dl), all due to the decline of estrogens and DHEA. A parallel situation develops in males due to the drop in testosterone. For this reason, it may be necessary to re-check Lp(a) once after the fourth decade of life if you've had a level checked in your younger years.

This opens up some interesting therapeutic possibilities. If receding hormones are responsible for unleashing Lp(a), hormones can be replenished to reduce it. In males, this is relatively straightforward: supplement human testosterone and Lp(a) drops about 25%.

In women, however, it's a bit murkier, thanks to the negative experince reported using horse estrogens (AKA Premarin) in the HERS Trial and Women's Health Initiative. You'll recall that women who take horse estrogens and progestins (synthetic progesterone) do not experience less heart attack and develop a slightly increased risk of endometrial and breast cancer. There was, however, a poorly-publicized sub-study that showed that women with Lp(a) experience up to 50% fewer heart attacks on the horse/synthetic combination.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a large trial examining the safety/advisability of human estrogens and progesterone? To my knowledge, no such confident study in a significant number of women exists, since there's so little money to be made with human hormonal preparations.

For these reasons, we use lots of DHEA, generally at doses of 25 to 50 mg per day. It makes most people feel good, boosts energy modestly, increases muscle, and reduces Lp(a) up to 18% in women, a lesser quantity in men.
Atkins Diet: Common errors

Atkins Diet: Common errors

No doubt: The diet approach advocated by the late Dr. Robert Atkins was a heck of a lot closer to an ideal diet than the knuckleheaded advice emitting from the USDA, American Heart Association, American Diabetes Association, and the Surgeon General's office.

But having just spent a week with Atkins low-carbers, here are some common errors that I see many make, errors that I believe have long-term health consequences, including impairment of weight loss.

Excessive consumption of animal products--Non-restriction of fat often leads to over-reliance on animal products. Higher intakes of red meats (heme proteins?) have been strongly associated with increased risk for colon and other gastrointestinal tract cancers. It is not a fat issue; it is an animal product issue. We should consume less meat, more vegetables and other plant-sourced foods.

Consumption of cured meats--Cured, processed meats, such as sausage, hot dogs, salami, bologna, and bacon, have a color fixative called sodium nitrite, an additive that has been confidently linked to gastrointestinal cancers. Risk is likely dose-dependent: The more you ingest, the greater the long-term risk.

Overconsumption of dairy products--Dairy products, especially milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, and butter, are potent insulinotropic foods, i.e., foods that trigger insulin release. There can be up to a tripling of insulin (area-under-the-curve) levels. This is not good in a world populated with tired, overworked pancreases, exhausted from a lifetime of high-carbohydrate eating.

Too many calories--While I agree that "a calorie is a calorie" and "calories in, calories out" are faulty concepts, I have anecdotally observed that long-time low-carbers often trend towards unlimited consumption of food, a phenomenon that seems to result in weight gain, especially in the sedentary. I wonder if this is a reflection of the insulinotropic action of dairy products and other proteins, compounded by the poor insulin responsiveness that develops with lack of physical activity. Factor into this conversation that lower calorie intake extends life, probably substantially (Sirt-2 activation and related phenomena, a la resveratrol). If lower calorie intake extends life, unlimited calorie intake likely shortens life.

Please don't hear this as low-carb bashing--it is not. It is a call to improve diets and not stumble into common traps that can impair heart health, weight loss, and longevity.

Comments (74) -

  • Fred Hahn

    3/18/2010 1:02:21 PM |

    Nice post Bill. People really need to get this info into their heads.

    Great meeting you  on the cruise!

  • thequickbrownfox

    3/18/2010 1:14:09 PM |

    Please could you provide links to the interventional controlled (not observational) studies that have shown a link between eating meat and cancer risk, that separate the effect from eating junk food, and the fact that vegetarians are more likely to eat healthily in general than meat eaters due to the widespread and incorrect belief that saturated fat is harmful to health.

    Also, could you explain lack of cancer in traditional tribal societies with a high meat intake? You would need to do this before stating that meat intake necessarily increases cancer risk.

  • maxwell

    3/18/2010 1:25:40 PM |

    Hi doc,

    Great blog. How do you explain the Inuit, Masaai, Komi (Siberia), Native American and similar cultural groups whose diets seemed to subsist primarily on animal products? ie. including my ancestors.

    Perhaps its an emphasis on wild/grass-fed/raw dairy(or as close to) animal products as opposed to the grain-fed animal products which encompass the majority of the US that you need to be addressing?

    Thanks.

  • ET

    3/18/2010 1:31:21 PM |

    Interesting point of view.  Can you please provide references to support your claims?

  • Sandra Anderson

    3/18/2010 1:38:14 PM |

    Great diet, and yes, it seems that we should talk about healthy eating instead of weight loss or diets. Anyway the purpose of any diet is to move your eating habits to new healthy level.

    Thanks for sharing and possibility to comment! Welcome to visit Ideal Weight Blog to find some recipes and great articles! Thanks!

  • Mario Renato

    3/18/2010 1:40:29 PM |

    Just on the nitrate/nitrite subject: as far as I know nitrate is a naturally occurring compound and the human exposure to it is mostly through  consumption of vegetables, and to a lesser extent water and other foods...

    http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs/scdoc/689.htm

  • Matt Stone

    3/18/2010 1:48:56 PM |

    I would say there are 3 primary pitfalls of low-carb dieting:

    1) Being too low in carbohydrates - being in ketosis is anti-metabolic and induces insulin resistance, and probably why Atkins suggested that his diet "tends to shut down the thyroid."  

    2) Too much protein - this strains the thyroid as well, and encourages gluconeogenesis, which is also problematic - especially when in ketosis and insulin resistance is extreme.  

    3) Extremely high in omega 6 polyunsaturated fat.  Eating a low carb diet with lots of pork fat, chicken skin, peanut butter, and nuts - the typical standbys of many low-carb dieters, provides an astronomical amount of omega 6.

    By my best guesses, I was consuming 15+ grams of omega 6 while on a low-carb diet.  I've since cut that back to less than 3 grams per day and the change has been dramatic.  Of course the 400 grams of carbs per day helps too.

  • Dana Law

    3/18/2010 2:14:43 PM |

    Dr. Davis,
    Thank you for this post.  I'm certainly culpable of the "common errors" you mention.  I find that making daily decisions on what to eat difficult. I want to eat healthy and have some variety. Here's the question.  What do you eat?  What did you have for breakfast this morning?  What did you eat last night?  What do you keep in the fridge and on the counter to make following your dictates easier.
    I don't want to over-think it but all this information is overwhelming.  I feel like a scientist and my body is the research subject.
    Thank you for your blog.  I've learned a lot but need some direct guidance.
    Sincerely,
    Dana Law
    San Diego, Ca

  • Andrew

    3/18/2010 2:21:17 PM |

    Why is "Calories in vs. calories out" a faulty concept?

  • Tim

    3/18/2010 3:03:47 PM |

    Have you really read the meat leading to cancer literature carefully or do you just think it's like that? Others like Gary Taubes and Eades (who I really trust when it comes to research) have found no evidence that meat cause cancer.

    On sodium nitrate, I totally agree. I get so mad when I'm walking in the grocery stores. All meat has sodium nitrate added. Grrr.

    I share your thought about dairy. But do you really mean that butter triggers insulin spikes?

  • Daniel

    3/18/2010 3:11:55 PM |

    Most nitrite is form your own spit and originally ingested by eating vegetables.  

    I believe the epidemiological studies (which also typically find fat to have bad associations...) have more to do with a lack of fruits/vegetables/polyphenols than anything that is bad about meat.  

    Also, I don't think glycemic index or the insulinotropic nature of certain proteins matters one lick for people that are healthy.  I can eat a boiled potato for breakfast without my blood sugar breaking 100... I don't think diabetes is an overuse injury - more likely, it is cause by damage to the liver and then pancreas from PUFA and fructose overconsumption.  

    I think Matt Stone is correct about the top three problems with Atkins.

  • Lena

    3/18/2010 3:17:06 PM |

    If you're really concerned about your nitrite intake, watch your celery, arugula and spinach (and many other vegetables) consumption, too. Nitrites galore. Though it's not nitrites and nitrates in and of themselves that are linked to cancer, it's the nitrosamines that can form from them.

    Sodium nitrite isn't primarily a colour fixative, it's a an anti-bacterial agent. Meats cured with sodium chloride only have to be done quite carefully to avoid botulism. Nitrite has been used since the 16th century to preserve meat. Modern cured meats also add sodium ascorbate, and ascorbates have been shown to inhibit nitrosation reactions and thus the nitroamine level in these cured meats is usually at undetecable levels.

    Nitrites are produced in our mouths from bacterial reactions to the nitrates in food and water, and at least 70% of our dietary nitrite comes from this salivary nitrite (which came from our food and water). The nitrites and nitrates we then ingest are mostly either excreted fairly promptly or used to make nitric oxide. Human gastric secretions have a pH which isn't condusive to nitrosamine formation, and also include ascorbates which reduce nitrosamine formation, and keeping one's vitamin C at good levels will also have an effect. People with achlorhydria will obviously be more susceptible to nitrosamine formation. But interestingly, there are studies which now suggest that nitrite consumption is a good thing: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20005970 - and branched-chain amino acids are also suggested as suppressing the effect of nitrosamines. However the amount of nitrosamines you get from smoking is definitely Not Good, and no amount of ascorbate will ameliorate it.

    So, a good intake of nitrates and nitrites primarily through vegetables, some fruit, and some cured meat is good: the vegetables and fruit contain ascorbates as does your body, and most of hte meat should have it added also, minimising the formation of nitrosamines, leaving your body to get on with making use of the nitr*tes to make needed nitric oxide. (Oral nitric oxide/arginine supplements are rubbish though - the studies showing their benefit used intravenous/injected supplement.)

    Personally, I'll take nitrites over botulism, thanks.

  • Anna

    3/18/2010 4:00:07 PM |

    Hmmm, I've never been on a cruise, but if I did go on one, I'll bet I'd have to eat somewhat differently than I do at home, regardless of the carb count.  Between not having access to the pastured bison and wild game, raw dairy, "backyard" eggs, and organic CSA produce subscription, and so on that make up most of my family's daily diet, and no access to a kitchen, my meals on a cruise would hardly be representative of my usual diet.  

    I'll bet LC cruisers are as prone to anyone when it comes to the excesses of endless supply of prepared foods on cruises, but I'm not sure we can assume that's the way they always eat.  Most people  eat somewhat differently on vacation, whether it's because they are on somewhat of a "diet vacation", or because they have to make the best of what's available.  When I was on vacation in Italy I had a gelato every day, but I certainly don't do that at home (it was a conscious decision to take a slight vacation from my diet and enjoy a local specialty for a limited time).  And I've been places where it was impossible to get eggs cooked in real butter instead of the ubiquitous "griddle grease" hydrogenated veggie oil, let alone pastured eggs and humanely produced bacon (seriously, we breakfasted at a tiny roadside diner outside Twenty-Nine Palms that had NO butter on the premises).  

    And not all LC eaters are following an Atkin's diet plan, though I understand the Atkins label has become be a generic term for LC eating.  I've read an Atkins book (as well as at least a half dozen other LC diet books).  I eat LC (& GF now) but I've never followed specifically an Atkin's diet plan, nor do I describe myself as at Atkin's dieter.

    I think the points you make point out that even on low carb, people can and do still rely on far too much industrial food.  It's convenient and it's everywhere (hard to avoid, esp when dining away from home).  Frankly, one of the reasons cruise vacations hold little appeal to me is the idea of having to nothing to eat all week but cr@p industrial food, no matter how talented the chefs may be at making it look and taste good.   I may be making a sweeping assumption, but somehow I don't imagine that cruise chefs are simmering their own bone broth stocks, curing charcuterie themselves, and making their own cheese (or even sourcing from small artisan vendors  very much).    I'd be extremely surprised if cruise ship food ingredients weren't offloaded from US Food tractor trailer trucks.  That's what I've seen at many land-based resorts.  When I travel,  as much as possible, I want to try the local traditional foods and specialties, prepared as authentically as possible.  That might mean eating more of something than usual (and less, too).

  • Anonymous

    3/18/2010 4:15:55 PM |

    Isn't it also an Atkins diet error that low-carb eaters tend to be on a constant and frantic quest for processed fake food items that are pretend substitutes for the food that got them in trouble in the first place?  And many of them have made Jimmy Moore, a huge hawker of low-carb substitutes and a less-than-successful low-carber, their role model.  

    I noticed on Swedish physician Dr. Andreas Eenfeldt's blog that his description of his experience on the cruise was that "[t]he big difference with Sweden is that many are fond of low-carb versions of traditional junk food, sugar, and so. Low carb cake, low carb icecream, low carb potato chips, diet sodas ... In my eyes seemed to just those participants who ate such did not have the same persuasive power of the diet. To put it nicely. Perhaps it was the roundest of them all, the man [Andrew DiMino -- Carbsmart.com?] who handed out the various "low carb" products that are advertising for his company. [Google translation]

    People I know who have been totally unsuccessful on Atkins have gleefully loaded up on "substitutes" that probably have derailed them.  And the Atkins company that sells this crap will forever keep the Atkins mantra from the gaining the credibility it probably deserves.

  • Emily

    3/18/2010 4:15:55 PM |

    also curious as to how butter could cause a rise in insulin. butter has even less/no carbs compared to cheese, and in previous posts you've said cheese doesnt cause blood sugar rises...

  • Emily

    3/18/2010 4:20:11 PM |

    also many health food stores, grocery co-ops, and whole foods and trader joes sell either no nitrate-added or uncured deli meats and bacon. applegate and niman ranch are brands that sell these foods.

  • Fred Hahn

    3/18/2010 4:48:10 PM |

    Bill you said:

    "Excessive consumption of animal products--Non-restriction of fat often leads to over-reliance on animal products. Higher intakes of red meats (heme proteins?) have been strongly associated with increased risk for colon and other gastrointestinal tract cancers. It is not a fat issue; it is an animal product issue. We should consume less meat, more vegetables and other plant-sourced foods."

    I don't think this is true Bill. As far as I'm aware, there is no good evidence to support protein as cancer causing. Dr. Eades has debunked this on his blog.

  • Beth@WeightMaven

    3/18/2010 5:15:58 PM |

    Andrew, scroll down and see the section on conservation of energy for why calories in vs out is faulty: http://entropyproduction.blogspot.com/2009/02/all-medical-science-is-wrong-within-95.html

  • Beth@WeightMaven

    3/18/2010 5:19:08 PM |

    Ditto what Tim said. My understanding is that it's the whey in dairy that is insulinogenic (tho it's a bit like the glycemic index ... it depends on when and what you eat it with).

    Butter should not be as big a problem. One of my go-tos is ghee from grass-fed cows. The small amount of milk solids left in butter are removed when ghee is made.

  • Gretchen

    3/18/2010 6:27:26 PM |

    If you cut out animal protein, dairy, and carbs, there's not much left to eat.

    The protein sources favored by vegetarians, beans, rice, and grains, make blood sugar increase too much for people with diabetes.

    One can not live on tofu and fat alone, and anyway some people say too much soy is not good.

    I don't know why people have a prejudice against dairy. See this:

    http://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/29/7/1579.full

    If you have a diabetic tendency, it means your beta cells aren't producing enough insulin, so a food that helps them along is good.

  • Jimmy Moore

    3/18/2010 6:30:13 PM |

    Well said Dr. Davis!  We were certainly appreciative of your presence on the Low-Carb Cruise.  THANK YOU so much for all of your contributions...we need to get you back on the podcast later this year. Smile

  • zach

    3/18/2010 6:32:46 PM |

    Too many calories on a high fat diet? Good luck keeping that up. I can't get 2000 most days. Too full.

    Why were there traditional societies that used dairy as a staple yet were free of CVD and diabetes, including the super long lived people on the border of Eastern Europe and Central Asia?

    Copy and paste the above argument for "eating too much meat."

    Low carb may not be for everyone, but the biggest problem with some low carbers is probably too much n-6 from processed meat. Lots of nuts aren't that good for you either.

  • Anonymous

    3/18/2010 6:46:12 PM |

    What is the alternative for animal protein? Soy, gluten,beans, nuts all cause other problems?

    Please suggest some sample of improved Atkin diet.

  • PJNOIR

    3/18/2010 6:54:50 PM |

    Again Low carb is NOT zero carb. Many atkins folks don't really read the diet. I used atkins succesfully last year and eat more veggies then I ever did. It is not all about meqat meat meat or even high protein. And as much as I enjoy your blog- you still have a huge fear of fat. With Atkins I have improved my metabolic problems.

  • Helen

    3/18/2010 7:12:05 PM |

    I've been concerned to learn, here and elsewhere, that dairy products are insulinogenic, particularly since I can't seem to manage a reasonable diet without a fair amount of them.  (Nuts don't do well with me, soy is a no-go, I can only eat so much meat, my family has egg-allergy issues, and the fish that is non-contaminated, sustainably caught, not-BPA-canned, not-fed omega-6 and dioxin-laced stuff in a disgusting fish farm, is wicked expensive and logistically impossible to get fresh for my family more than once a week....)

    On the other hand, there are several dairy-reliant cultures that are quite long-lived and healthy, and dairy-consuming people in our own culture tend to be healthier than non-dairy eaters.  So maybe something mitigates the insulin question with dairy.  Just saying.

    In the end, you have to eat something, and sometimes reading this blog I feel I can't eat anything.  Like Dana Law, I'd like a better picture of what an ideal, or at least acceptable, day's or week's diet would look like from your point of view.

  • Jenny

    3/18/2010 8:56:12 PM |

    I've followed Atkins for these last three years, losing 80lbs in the process, so am quite familiar with what's permitted and not.

    Atkins did not recommend consuming any milk, nor was much yogurt or cottage cheese permitted. Hard cheese, cream cheese and heavy cream are allowed, but the Atkins diet permits less than 2-3 oz per day.

    Butter is allowed liberally, but is 100% fat so can't be very insunlinotropic, if at all.

    Because I raise dairy goats, until three years ago, I drank goat milk freel.  Now I never drink it, though I do have a glass of very sour kefir now and then, after the probiotics have cultured most of the lactose into lactic acid.  The kefir I drink is very tart. Most people don't like it that sour. lol

    The "Atkins is High-Protein" myth is often bandied about by anti-low-carb groups. I track my daily intake on FitDay and it's usually about 15-18% protein, 65-70% fat, and 10-20% carbs... pretty much what Atkins recommended; even 20% protein is not especially high protein.

    My carbs come mostly from eggs, green vegetables, heavy cream for coffee, berries and other LC fruit, and certain nuts and seeds, like flax.  Peanut butter is very carby, and not freely allowed in Atkins.

    I recommend reading the old Atkins book to understand what his diet really contains. Read the 1972 version, as the newer books (after 1999) were changed by Atkins Nutritionals to allow low-carb junk food that they conveniently sell.

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/18/2010 9:51:41 PM |

    I don't want anybody to hear "don't eat meat" here.

    I think that you should eat meat. I am a former vegetarian and I don't particularly like meat. Despite this, I do feel that humans are meant to be carnivorous. I just don't believe that piling your plate high with animal products several times per day is the ideal way to eat.

  • Haggus

    3/18/2010 9:58:20 PM |

    Dr. Davis, you sure it was "Atkins low-carbers" you were with?

    "Excessive consumption of animal products"

    At least with DANDR 2002, as you go up higher on the rungs, meat is replaced somewhat by veggies.  Personally, I eat around 200g of meat per day.  Of that, less than 90g is red meat (the rest is fish.)

    "Consumption of cured meat"

    I love bacon as much as the next guy, but in even Dr. Atkins stated in DANDR 20002 that one should "try to avoid meat and fish products cured with nitrates, which are known carcinogens."

    As for dairy, it's not taboo but still has to be fitted into the carbs you are allowed per day.

    This is the second blog post since the trip you have me scratching my head.  I hit your 60-60-60 markers using oat bran all the while being IGT and sporting an A1c of 4.8%.  (And before anyone asks, in DANDR 2002 Dr. Atkins mentions oat bran to bring down your cholesterol levels.)

  • zach

    3/18/2010 10:12:54 PM |

    Dr. Davis says:

    "I just don't believe that piling your plate high with animal products several times per day is the ideal way to eat."

    Try to do that for an extended period of time. I lasted about 2 weeks. Now I have a very small meaty breakfast, and a modest size meaty dinner, and I'm STUFFED. Been like this for years. Can't eat lunch-not hungry.

    You prefer plant foods which is great, but you're not in a carnivore's shoes. From our perspective, what you say is rather silly because many of us actually worry about not getting enough calories! Fat is filling. I'm a 6ft, 165 lb male and I can barely get 2000 calories I feel so full.

  • homeskillet

    3/18/2010 10:40:42 PM |

    Amen to Zach. I'm a PUFA-phobe, and if there's no grass-fed meat or butter in my diet, where am I going to get my fat?
    Nuts? (PUFAs)
    Soy? (Won't eat it unless it's fermented--like miso)
    SUPER-skeptical about your claim regarding insulinotropic dairy. If it is so chronic disease-inducing, wouldn't the Swiss of the Loetschental Valley been prematurely "toes up in the dirt" of the emerald green countryside before Weston Price would have arrived to find out how spectacular their health was because of the dairy they consumed?

    Brilliance abounds here: http://www.paleonu.com/panu-weblog/2010/3/18/sat-fat-or-pufa-which-one-do-you-fear.html

  • Helen

    3/18/2010 10:47:42 PM |

    Hey, Gretchen,

    Thanks for the link!  Good to know, and I was wondering about whether producing more insulin would be good or bad for me.  I had gestational diabetes, so I do have a diabetic tendency.  I'll keep eating my yogurt, then.

    Helen

  • kilton9

    3/18/2010 10:49:35 PM |

    Here's a good take on the conventional "wisdom" of nitrates: http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/2008/07/does-banning-hotdogs-and-bacon-make.html

    Matt:

    "Being too low in carbohydrates - being in ketosis is anti-metabolic and induces insulin resistance, and probably why Atkins suggested that his diet 'tends to shut down the thyroid.'"

    I generally find your thoughts to be spot-on, so there's no need to manipulate Atkins' quote to enhance your point.  What he said was that dieting in general tends to shut down the thyroid.

    "[P]rolonged dieting [including ‘this one’] tends to shut down thyroid function."

  • Paul

    3/18/2010 10:59:54 PM |

    Dr Davis -
    Could you please post your "typical" breakfast, lunch, and dinner? I've been reading this blog for awhile (and it's great), and have read a lot of what NOT to eat, but haven't read much on what TO eat. What should our 3 square meals/day look like?

  • sonagi92

    3/18/2010 11:25:42 PM |

    I knew that dairy was insulinotropic, but like Emily, I was surprised to see butter on the list as butter is mostly fat, and clarified butter entirely fat.  As I understand, it is protein-rich foods like beef, chicken, and fish, that provoke unexpectedly high insulin responses, so I thought it was either the sugars or the protein in dairy, not the fat, that spiked a rise in blood sugar.  Is butter really insulinotropic like other dairy products containing lactose sugars and proteins?

  • sonagi92

    3/18/2010 11:39:43 PM |

    Another comment about dairy and weight gain:

    I have noticed that melted cheese in particular - a warm, creamy fat with some carbs and protein - is highly palatable.  Full-fat yogurt, whipped cream, and guacamole are similarly irresistible.  I could not consume more than a couple tablespoons of olive oil yet have no trouble gobbling down a few slices of cheese melted onto a piece of chicken or beef.  I'm trying to shave off 5 more pounds to reach my goal, so I've given up all dairy except for clarified butter, which I use to saute veggies.  Will see if this works.

  • Sue

    3/18/2010 11:55:11 PM |

    Most of the low-carbers on the cruise seemed to be overweight.  I don't know if some of them were just starting eating low carb.  I think this is what prompted Davis' post.  If you are still overweight doing low-carb - are you doing something wrong? Should slimness be a goal every low-carber can meet (apart from all the other health benefits)?

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/19/2010 12:58:36 AM |

    Hi, Fred!

    We had some great conversations. I learned a lot from your "slow-burn" discussions and I've been applying them to my workouts.

    Good to see you here! I will be detailing some of the fat/animal product/cancer discussions in future.

  • frogfarm

    3/19/2010 12:58:37 AM |

    "I do feel that humans are meant to be carnivorous. I just don't believe that piling your plate high with animal products several times per day is the ideal way to eat."

    I'm scratching my head trying to reconcile these two statements.

    How about eating animal products to hunger once or twice a day?

  • Dr. William Davis

    3/19/2010 1:00:10 AM |

    Haggus--

    Excellent point.

    What Bob Atkins called "the Atkins Diet" was somewhat different from what is commonly practiced as "the Atkins Diet."

    As time passes, I continue to marvel at how much he got right.

  • Anonymous

    3/19/2010 1:01:16 AM |

    How high is "too high?" I say this not to be a smart aleck or to overlook the wisdom in "you'll know it when you see it," but this is a bit too vague to be of much use.

    Clearly a largely plant-based diet supplemented with a decent amount of animal protein will trump loading up heavily on animal products to the exclusion of plant-based foods. But there's far too many vague generalizations being bandied about by so-called dietary experts these days and not a lot of concrete recommendations that can be tailored to fit a person's unique context.

    -Bob Sutcliff

  • Rick

    3/19/2010 1:54:31 AM |

    Wow. Echoing a few other commenters, I'd really like some guidelines on what a good diet would look like.

  • Anonymous

    3/19/2010 3:23:10 AM |

    Jenny said: "I track my daily intake on FitDay and it's usually about 15-18% protein, 65-70% fat, and 10-20% carbs... pretty much what Atkins recommended...."

    Whenever I read this sort of thing, I get confused. 15-18% of WHAT? the total calories? and if so then how do I translate that percentage into actual amounts (like grams or ounces?)

    I'm sure most of you can straighten me out on this once and for all. Thanks!

  • Renfrew

    3/19/2010 10:36:00 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    it would be great after such lengthy and detailed discussions about this topic to give us a typical sample food or meal list for a day of yours.
    Looking forward to it.

    Renfrew

  • Peter

    3/19/2010 1:11:35 PM |

    Fred Hahn: I'm mixed up about your two posts here, "People need to get this into their heads" and "Not true."

  • Lucy

    3/19/2010 1:46:53 PM |

    I would also like to see a typical day in the life of Dr. Davis.

    Anon-  Yes, they mean a % of total calories.  You can figure it this way:

    1g Protein = 4 cals
    1g Carb = 4 cals
    1g Fat = 9 cals

    So if a person eats 2000 cals/day and 18% was from protein, then that person ate approximately 360 cals of protein.  Divide 360 by 4 and you get 90 grams of protein.

  • scall0way

    3/19/2010 2:29:51 PM |

    I agree that there are many low carbers who follow their eating plan less than optimally. I see them posting on the low carb forums I follow. But as one who was also on the cruise, I don't think you can really equate cruise eating with what people eat on a normal day-to-day basis!

    I had resolved to eat only "real food" on the cruise, as I almost always do at home, and I had resolved not to snack. And I was pretty good about my resolve. I didn't snack, ate only three meals a day, avoided the flour, sugar, even the sugar-free cheesecake and other things provided.

    But did I eat exactly the way I would eat at home? No, I didn't. I undoubtedly ate more than I would have eaten at home, and probably certainly more protein sources than I would have eaten at home. The last night of the cruise I even broke down and had one of the sugar-free margaritas, and I had a half glass of red wine at the comedy show.

    And I'm sure my PUFA intake was higher than I would normally like. We had no control over how foods were prepared in the kitchen after all, or very little.

    But this was 5 days out of my life, not a lifetime of eating. Smile I didn't gain any weight on the cruise and indeed have even hit a new low this week since being back. Overall I've lost more than 100 pounds.  

    I'm not convinced of the meat/cancer link either - though too much protein raises my blood sugar so I don't normal OD on protein much. I was never a vegetarian but often thought I could have gone that way as I'm not all that crazy about meat. But now I have an "It's them or me" attitude and look for meats I  enjoy better - just not too much.

    Apparently Matt Stone has challenged my son to try out a super-low-calorie, essentially fat-free diet, based on 1930s research by Evans and Strang, and I'm following his progress with interest. But at the moment it's not for me. I still love my butter and coconut oil.

    But we are all so different, and what works for one may not work well for another. But I wonder how many low carbers eat at home the same way they ate on the cruise?

  • Anonymous

    3/19/2010 2:34:39 PM |

    Well said Dr. Davis!

    Jimmy this is not at all what you promote.  I am confused by your comment.

    Dr. Davis, are you choosing to ignore all those who have asked you to defend your claims (and the great questions asked).  This is the first post I have ever read by you that makes me shake my head.  

    Sally Sue

  • Jenny

    3/19/2010 3:01:52 PM |

    Anon said: "Whenever I read this sort of thing, I get confused. 15-18% of WHAT? the total calories? and if so then how do I translate that percentage into actual amounts (like grams or ounces?)"

    Percentages of my daily food intake. I used percentages because everyone has a different calorie ceiling where we stop losing weight. The ceiling calorie limit usually changes as you lose weight; but the percentage of Protein, Fat and Carbohydrates should remain the same.

    My daily calorie limit is now around 1500 calories; when I weighed 80 lbs more, it was closer to 2000 calories; and at 2000 calories back then I was losing 3-4 lbs a week.  Either way, the grams/oz of Potein/Fat/Carbs that I eat probably won't relate well to you; but percentages can and will.

    By the way, I use a food-tracking program called FitDay, that calculates your food entries into P/F/C, and into grams/oz and percentages, and also gives daily vitamin/mineral counts as well as for individual foods.  It's really quite interesting to compare the nutrition counts of different foods; that way you can see what's really worth eating.  Meat contains a lot more than just protein... it has a lot of essential vitamins and minerals, actually.

    FitDay is free online, but the purchased version is much more convenient; I paid $25 three years ago and consider the money well spent.

    You should track your own food intake to see for yourself what percentages your current diet contains... you might be surprised. Food tracking, whether through FitDay or some other program, is the single most useful thing that helps keep me on track.

  • Nancy

    3/19/2010 3:40:20 PM |

    Red meat and intestinal cancer isn't strongly linked.  In fact, it seems to be dissolving under tougher scrutiny.

    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/73040.php

    "Recent studies published in the journal Cancer Science have disproved the common myth that consumption of red meat increases colorectal cancer  risk."

  • Martin Levac

    3/19/2010 5:29:56 PM |

    Eat for health, not for weight loss. I agree.

    However, if, perchance, you believed that you ate for health, yet the same diet kept you fat, or God forbid kept you emaciated, would you really be eating for health then?

  • Anonymous

    3/19/2010 7:07:20 PM |

    Re Anonymous and "percentages."  This drives me crazy too.  Without a total daily calorie count, percentages are meaningless.  So what if I eat "10%" carbs, if I am noshing on 6000 calories a day?

    To answer your question: yes, you do have to do some simple math.  First, figure out the number of calories in the given percentage, using a hypothetical total daily caloric intake.  40% of 2,000 calories, for example, would be 800 calories.  A carb has roughly 4-5 calories per gram, so that would equate to around 200 grams of carbs.  Protein is similar.  Fat, on the other hand, has 9 calories per gram.  So those 800 calories would be slightly less than 90 grams of fat.

    Once you start doing it, it gets easier.  Practice on food labels!

  • HSL

    3/19/2010 8:11:21 PM |

    Anon - most food values are given as a % of calories.  For example if you are eating 2000 calories/day of which 70% is fat, then you're eating about 155 gms of fat per day (2000 x 0.70 = 1400/9 = 155 gms). Fat has about 9 calories/gm; carbs & protein each have about 4 calories/gm.

    As for "...15 to 18% of what" that would depend on what you're eating.  Three ounces of white fish (raw) has about 16 gms of protein; 3 oz of beef chuck (raw) has about 28 gms of protein.

  • Andrew

    3/19/2010 8:39:27 PM |

    Beth:

    That doesn't prove that calories in vs. calories out is faulty.  The calories in vs. calories out concept is simply the theory that you will lose weight if you eat below BMR, regardless of what foods you eat.  The Thermodynamics argument is misapplied to this concept, IMO.

    Perhaps we are simply thinking of two different concepts.

  • Lori Miller

    3/20/2010 12:24:31 AM |

    Some highlighted words from the original post: overconsumption, excessive consumption, and too many calories. The point seems to be that a little rich food goes a long way. Oh, and don't eat food that causes cancer.

  • Kim

    3/20/2010 2:59:58 AM |

    Sue said,"Most of the low-carbers on the cruise seemed to be overweight. I don't know if some of them were just starting eating low carb. I think this is what prompted Davis' post. If you are still overweight doing low-carb - are you doing something wrong? Should slimness be a goal every low-carber can meet (apart from all the other health benefits)?"

    I was on the cruise and yes, many of the cruisers were overweight.  Some are just starting a low carb lifestyle, and some are not.  I personally have lost over 150 lbs on low carb and maintained that loss for nearly 2 years now.  I consider that a success, however, I am not thin by any means and am working on about 50 more lbs.  I took the advice from many of the speakers, Dr. Davis included, and have worked it into my daily routines.  As a registered nurse, I am aware of nutrition both mainstream and low carb.  I do my research.  I try to eat cleanly most of the time.  Life interferes sometimes, much as is does for anyone who is human and as I know it has for some of the individuals who were on the cruise.  I do believe individuals who are or have been morbidly obese are vastly different from your average American with 30 lbs to lose.  Everything happens on a grander scale.  We lose weight bigger and gain weight bigger.  All I know is I've lost 100+ lbs using the Standard American Diet--twice.  Within a year I gained it back--twice.  Finding a low carb diet has saved my life.  I eat in normal portion sizes, I maintain. Is it for everyone? No.  Is it the only way? No.  But it is one way that works for many people who really need it.  

    Thanks Dr. Davis, for your presentation.  I truly enjoyed it.

  • Hilary

    3/20/2010 3:08:32 PM |

    "Higher intakes of red meats (heme proteins?) have been strongly associated with increased risk for colon and other gastrointestinal tract cancers."

    Really? Strong association? If that's true, then how do you explain this?:
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2008.26838v1

  • Edward

    3/20/2010 8:36:45 PM |

    Hilary said:

    "Really? Strong association? If that's true, then how do you explain this?:
    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2008.26838v1"

    Hilary, I have not formed an opinion one way or the other on this issue yet, but the study you cite was "Supported in part by the Cattlemen's Beef Board, through the National Cattlemen's Beef Association, and the National Pork Board."

  • Anonymous

    3/20/2010 10:36:51 PM |

    Re my question as to how to translate percentages of protein, fat and carbs into grams, I should've have asked my trusted friend "google" instead of taking up someone's time here. So please forgive me.

    But Thanks! to those who responded. Your explanations were very helpful.

    Meanwhile, I found a site which will do all that computation for me and thought I'd pass it on.
    http://www.freedieting.com/tools/nutrient_calculator.htm

  • Anonymous

    3/21/2010 1:09:02 AM |

    Hi I was on the cruise and thoroughly enjoyed it. Sue, Yes I am overweight according to my BMI of 29, I was on the cruise the first year by the second i was 20 pound lighter by the time I got on this years cruise since last year I have lost 54 pound. Yes I am still as you say overweight but I am doing something about it. Sorry I wasn't "normal" for this year but I will be for next year. Snacks were handed out but the message was clear that these are treats and a preferable treat than something high carb and sugar loaded. There were new people there and others who have been doing it a while and of those we are all less than when we started. We had some excellent speakers i.e. Dana Carpender who spends her life educating us how to make foods using our own ingredients she even said you can put weight on eating low carb as we still can make the wrong choices. We all have the same problem with food do we not but we are prepared to be educated by the fabulous speakers who went to help us and gave their time freely to pass on their knowledge.

    A big big thank you to them and you Dr Davis

    Ailsa who came one the cruise all the way from the UK.

  • Mike Turco

    3/22/2010 2:21:16 AM |

    I've been reading your blog for a couple years and really enjoy doing so. I think you've got it wrong on the Atkins diet, though. I don't know where you got your information and I'm pretty sure you didn't read the books. Milk and yogurt aren't on the "diet". Atkins also told you to not eat cured meats. As far as calories are concerned, Atkins also told people to not eat too much! So... I'm having a lot of difficulty with this article in particular & wanted to pipe up. I'll go back to readin' the rest of your blog now. Thanks for all your efforts in keeping this blog up and running. -- Mike

  • George

    3/22/2010 3:46:11 PM |

    Dr. Davis, have greatly enjoyed your insights on this blog over the year. Have had your book for a couple of years. Have noticed great benefits from your vitamin D recommendations. When is your updated Track Your Plaque book coming out? I thought it was coming out toward the end of last year? Any ETA on it? Very interested in seeing your recommendations as it relates to diet? Typical recommended breakfasts, lunchs, and dinners?

    George

  • Owen

    3/28/2010 12:13:24 PM |

    This seems consistent with Ray Peat's advice as far as meat meat is concerned- he recommends balancing meat intake with gelatin so as to not get too much iron (hemeprotein afterall) as well as the fact that it has a less inflammatory amino acid profile (muscle is high in tryptophan and histidine wheras gelatin has no tryptophan and lots of glycine and proline...)

    Also he mentions that he always drinks coffee when he eats red meat so as to block iron overload even more!

    Of course he has no problems with milk, butter and cheese consumption but prefers the latter b/c curds have a better amino profile than whey.

  • Anonymous

    3/28/2010 5:35:14 PM |

    Over the years, I've looked closely at the studies associating red meat with colorectal cancer, and it appears to be impossible from them to separate the effects of modern meat production practices from that of the meat. In other words, it is as likely as not that what's wrong with the red meat is what we put into it, and how it is grown, versus any attribute of the meat itself.

    However, whatever the cause of the problem, it pays to at least limit consumption of red meat that you buy in a supermarket.

  • Atkins Diet

    4/24/2010 11:14:47 PM |

    Hi Dr Davis,

    Thanks for sharing your comments. I am a big Atkins Diet follower, and we all need to remind ourselves to keep the intake of "processed" meat & foods to a minimum. Vegetables are a good way to go! Thanks for providing us <a href ="http://atkinsdietinformation.blogspot.com>Atkins Diet</a> followers with such relevant and important information

    Cheers,

    John

  • jpatti

    5/7/2010 8:27:28 AM |

    I think it's bizarre to associate ANYONE'S eating habits on a cruise with what their day-to-day life is like.

    My normal food would not be available on a cruise: homemade yogurt and kefir made from fresh raw whole milk mixed with berries, pastured eggs with dark yellow yolks cooked in pastured butter, pastured meat, fresh organic fruits and vegetables, homemade chocolate made with coconut oil, cocoa, almonds and stevia... I don't see a cruise line providing food like this.

    So, I'd probably do sugar-free cheesecake too, or wind up overeating fresh fruit, just cause there'd not be any of my food there.

    When I travel, I do Wendy's burgers using the lettuce as a bun if hitting a drive-through or really crappy salad bars with not much beyond iceberg lettuce.

    Sometimes, you do the best you can with the circumstances... cause to eat really WELL, you pretty much need a kitchen.

  • R. Eductil

    6/7/2010 6:08:32 PM |

    This article contains huge inventory of knowledge and telling about the diet and what to eat or not.

  • suzan

    6/8/2010 11:06:10 AM |

    healthty diet is important..nice article about diet

  • Atkins Diet Copy

    7/11/2010 11:09:15 PM |

    Thanks for sharing this very useful tips.

  • cheapcalorad

    10/22/2010 10:58:27 AM |

    Really some truth to the fact that people from Mediterranean areas are seldom obese despite eating a very high fat diet? Did science get it all wrong before? Was there a national conspiracy to force people to eat boring, healthy foods? Thanks for your good suggestion.

    Welcome to visit-
    weight loss accelerator.
    Cheap Calorad

  • Anonymous

    11/2/2010 11:54:28 PM |

    I haven't eaten meat or dairy in long time. Humans don't need meat or dairy. I think meat is disgusting and I'm glad I don't have to eat it. I've seen meat-eaters B-12 deficient, so this shows eating meat doesn't necessarily make someone sufficient in B-12. Methylcobalamin B-12 works great. Eating red meat apparently increases colon and breast cancer risk. I think meat was meant to be an option, just like grains or legumes. Humans were designed to survive on many different things. Plant foods are affordable and bearable for me - meat is not.

  • buy jeans

    11/3/2010 2:21:15 PM |

    Overconsumption of dairy products--Dairy products, especially milk, yogurt, cottage cheese, and butter, are potent insulinotropic foods, i.e., foods that trigger insulin release. There can be up to a tripling of insulin (area-under-the-curve) levels. This is not good in a world populated with tired, overworked pancreases, exhausted from a lifetime of high-carbohydrate eating.

  • atkins diet plan

    12/7/2010 12:42:49 PM |

    hey guys,
    you out there had some great conversations that help me learn a lot from your, atkins diet, "slow-burn" discussions, meat consumption and being vegetarian.

    Nice exchange of great ideas, keep going guys and thanks Dr. Davis.

  • Lance Strish

    9/25/2011 8:44:37 AM |

    What do you make of this 'physiological insulin resistance' and its role in creeping weight gain on too low carb
    http://www.lowcarbconversations.com/344/22-barbara-rose-dean-dwyer-paleo-guy-weston-price-gal-discuss-body-image-more/#comment-306963040

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/25/2011 1:26:12 PM |

    Hi, Lance--

    I've not heard this argument before. If you've got the references for the studies showing this effect, I'd be happy to take a look.

    In real life, I've not seen this play out. People who restrict carbs, lose visceral fat, drop HbA1c, glucose, and insulin. Maintaining the diet does not, over the years, allow recrudescence of the phenomena of insulin resistance.

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