Dr. Joseph Prendergast and l-arginine

In response to a discussion started by Track Your Plaque Member, Rich, on the Member Forum, I tracked down Dr. Joseph Prendergast, who had posted a video on his unique experiences, both personal and professional, with l-arginine.

Dr. Prendergast describes some of this in a brief webcast. Here, I quote Rich:

“This 90-second video by a Palo Alto physician (internal/endocrine, diabetes specialist) will totally blow your mind.

http://enews.endocrinemetabolic.com/2007/08/16-12-years.html

You will see in the link below that he reversed his personal atherosclerotic disease, diagnosed in abdominal aorta at age 37—completely reversed. He's now much older."

http://www.endocrinemetabolic.com/about/press/larginine.pdf



I contacted Dr. Prendergast to find out more.

Dr. Joseph Predergast is founder of the Endocrine Metabolic Medical Center in Palo Alto, California, focused on providing care for people with diabetes. In addition to the website, he provides Blogs and newsletters, though most of his conversation is about diabetes issues. Dr. Predergast’s website is located at http://www.endocrinemetabolic.com.

I asked Dr. Prendergast several questions about his l-arginine experience. His brief answers are below.



1) What dose of l-arginine have you employed in your patients and why this dose?

The dose is 3 - 6 grams as suggested by the Stanford Cardiovascular Research Department Chairman John Cooke. http://med.stanford.edu/profiles/John_Cooke/

2) I gather that you have preference for specific preparations of l-arginine. Can you say why some preparations seem superior to others in your experience?

I started with pharmaceutical l-arginine from the pharmacy. I gradually began to add components that would augment the power of the l-arginine and have gone through 12–15 different products. I have completely reversed my own very severe atherosclerosis discovered at age 37 and there has been less than 0.05% cardiovascular disease in my endocrine practice in almost 17 years. Both my exams were evaluated with CT technology. I am now using ProArgi9 Plus that includes several anti-aging components and will likely never switch. http://www.synergyworldwide.com/synergycorp/home.aspx

3) Are you employing any other unique practices in your patients to reduce cardiovascular events?

Withdrawing as many prescription drugs as possible.




Interesting. Of course, I also advocate l-arginine as a facilitator of atherosclerotic plaque regression, though I am not as ebullient about its use as Dr. Prendergast.

Instead, I see l-arginine as a method that yields forced normalization of “endothelial dysfunction,” the abnormal constriction and other effects that develop when abnormal lipoproteins and unhealthy food by-products are present in the circulation. Endothelial dysfunction is an inevitable accompaniment of plaque.

However, unlike Dr. Predergast’s experience, despite our use of doses higher than he uses, I have never seen plaque regression just using l-arginine alone. Nonetheless, it’s good to hear that others are seeing at least some positive effects.

By the way, we have also had some positive posts on our Forum about the ProArgi9 product he uses.

Dr. Dwight Lundell on omega-3s and CLA



An interview with Dr. Dwight Lundell, cardiac surgeon and author of the new book, "The Cure for Heart Disease."


Dr. Lundell comes to us with a unique pedigree. He is a cardiothoracic surgeon practicing in the Phoenix, Arizona, area. Despite having performed thousands of coronary bypass operations, including numerous "off-pump" procedures earning him a place in the Beating Heart Hall of Fame and a listing in Phoenix Magazine’s Top Doctors for 10 years, more recently Dr. Lundell has turned his attentions away from traditional surgical treatment and towards prevention of heart disease and.

In particular, Dr. Lundell is a vocal advocate for omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil and conjugated linoleic acid, or CLA.

When I heard about Dr. Lundell’s unique perspectives, I asked him if he’d like to tell us a little more about his ideas. Here follows a brief interview with Dr. Lundell.



You’re a vocal advocate of the role of omega-3 fatty acids from fish oil in heart disease prevention. Can you tell us how you use it?

In my book, I recommend 3 g of fish oil daily. This would normally yield about 1000 mg of EPA and DHA depending on the concentration of the supplement. This is approximately the dose that reduced sudden cardiac death by 50%, and all cause death, by 25% in patients with previous heart attack.

In patients with signs of chronic inflammation such as heart disease, obesity, arthritis, metabolic syndrome or depression or in those patients with elevation of CRP, I would recommend higher doses, 2000 to 3000 mg per day of EPA and DHA. The FDA has approved up to 3400 mg for treating patients with severely elevated triglycerides.

I personally take a 2000 mg EPA and DHA per day because I have calcium in my coronary arteries.




Of course, in the Track Your Plaque program we track coronary calcium scores. Do you track any measures of atherosclerosis in your patients to chart progression or regression?

Carotid ultrasound with measurement of IMT [intimal-medial thickness] has been shown to be a good surrogate marker for coronary disease, as has vascular reactivity in the arm. CT scanning with calcium scoring is a direct marker of coronary disease. CT does not differentiate between stable or unstable plaque but there is no good noninvasive way of doing this.

The dramatic value of CT scan calcium scoring is to demonstrate to people that they actually do have coronary disease and to motivate them to make the necessary lifestyle and nutritional changes to reduce it. CT scan with calcium scoring is a direct way to measure the progression or regression of coronary artery disease. If there is a choice between a direct measurement and indirect measurement, always choose the direct method.

Every patient treated with CLA in my clinic, experienced significant reductions in C-reactive protein. These patients were also on a weight-loss program, so I can't prove whether it was the CLA or the weight-loss that improved their inflammatory markers. In the animal model for arteriosclerosis, CLA has a dramatic effect of reducing and preventing plaque. This has not yet been proven in humans.

Normally, when people lose weight 20% or more of the loss is lean body mass (muscle) this lowers the metabolic rate and frustrates further weight-loss. My patient, from teenagers to retirees, lost no lean body mass and continued to have satisfactory weight-loss when CLA was used as part of the plan.



In reading your book, your use of conjugated linoleic acid (CLA) as a principal ingredient struck me. Can you elaborate on why you choose to have your patients take CLA?

My enthusiasm for CLA is based on:

1) Safety?this is of paramount importance. Animal toxicity studies have been done, as well as multiple parameters measured in human studies, both of these are well reviewed recently in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2004:79(suppl)1132s). CLA, a naturally-occurring substance, is not toxic or harmful to animals or humans. The only negative report is by Riserus in Circulation (2002), where he found an elevated c- reactive protein; however, he used a preparation that is not commercially available and not found in nature as a single isomer.

2) Effectiveness?also critically important. A recent meta-analysis [a reanalysis of compiled data] in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2007; 85:1203-1211) demonstrated the effectiveness of CLA in causing loss of body fat in humans. The study also reconfirmed the safety of CLA.

Since we now know that atherosclerosis is an inflammatory disorder, any strategy that reduces low-grade inflammation without significant side effects would seem to be beneficial in the treatment and prevention of atherosclerosis. CLA not only has antioxidant properties, but it modulates inflammatory cascade at multiple points. CLA reduces PGE2 (in much the same way as omega-3) CLA also has been shown to reduce IL-2, tumor necrosis factor-alpha and Cox–2. It reduces platelet deposition and macrophage accumulation in plaques. It also has some beneficial effect in the PPAR [peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors, important for lipid and inflammatory-mediator metabolism] area.

Part of the effect of CLA may be because it reduces fat mass and thus the amount of pro-inflammatory cytokines produced by fat cells.

I reiterate and fully admit that CLA has not been shown to have any effect on atherosclerosis in human beings. However, the results in the standard animal models for atherosclerosis (rabbits, hamsters,APO-E knockout mice) are very dramatic.

From all I know, it appears that the effective dose for weight loss and the animal studies in atherosclerosis would be equal to about 3 g of CLA per day. The anti-inflammatory properties of CLA seem to work better in the presence of adequate blood levels of omega-3.



I’m curious how and why a busy cardiothoracic surgeon would transform his practice so dramatically. Was there a specific event that triggered your change?

The transition from a very busy surgical practice to writing and speaking about the prevention of coronary disease has not been particularly easy, but it has been very interesting. I can't really point to any specific epiphany, it was a general feeling of frustration that we were not making any progress in curing heart disease, which is what I thought I was doing when I began my medical career.

Of course, I enjoyed the technical advances, the dramatic life-saving things that you do and I did on a daily basis. American medicine is spectacularly good at managing crises and spectacularly horrible at preventing those crises.

The lipid hypothesis is old and tired, even the most aggressive statin therapy reduces risk of heart attack by about 30% in a relatively small subset of people. It's interesting that we're now looking at statins as an anti-inflammatory agent.


Thanks, Dr. Lundell. We look forward to future conversations as your experience with CLA and heart disease prevention and reversal develops!


More about Dr. Lundell's book, The Cure for Heart Disease can be found at http://www.thecureforheartdisease.net.


Note: We are planning a full Special Report on CLA for the Track Your Plaque website in future.

High-tech heart attack proofing


I was reminiscing the other day about what I was taught about heart disease in medical school some 20 years ago.

In the 1980s, the world was still (and remains) fascinated with this (then) novel "solution" to heart disease called coronary bypass surgery. As medical students, we all fought for a chance to watch a bypass operation being performed. And there was lots of opportunity. I was a medical student at St. Louis University School of Medicine, a center that boasted of a busy thoracic surgery service, performing up to 10 bypass operations every day.

Back then, coronary angioplasty was just a twinkle in Andreas Gruentzig's eye, still contemplating whether it was possible to put an inflatable device in the blockages of coronary arteries to re-establish blood flow. Risk detection for heart disease consisted of EKGs, screening for symptoms, detection of heart failure, and tests that are long forgotten in the dust bin of medical curiosities, tests like systolic-time intervals, phonocardiography (using amplified sound to detect abnormal heart sounds), and detailed physical examination. Treatment for heart attack involved nitroglycerin and extended bedrest. Bypass surgery would come after you recovered.

In other words, NONE of the tools we now use in the Track Your Plaque program for heart disease control and reversal were available just twenty years ago. There was no lipoprotein testing, no CT heart scans. Nobody recognized the power of omega-3 fatty acids (although epidemiologic observations were just beginning to suggest that eating fish might be the source of reduced risk for heart attack and cardiovascular death). Vitamin D? Why, that's in your milk so your babies don't get rickets.

So much of what we do today was not available then, nor were they even in the crystal ball of forward-looking people. I certainly had no idea whatsoever that I'd be talking and obsessing today about reversal of heart disease based on what I saw and learned back then.

Things have certainly come a long way and all for the better. The problem is that much of the world is stuck in 1985 and haven't yet heard that coronary disease is a manageable and reversible process. They've been sidetracked by the fiction propagated by the likes of Dr. Dean Ornish, the nonsense of low-fat diets aided and abetted by the food manufacturing industry and the USDA, the extravagant claims of some practitioners and the supplement industry. They haven't yet stumbled on the real-life experiences that are chronicled here in this Blog and the accompanying Track Your Plaque website.

Our program has been criticized for being too "high-tech," involving too many sophisticated measures like small LDL, lipoprotein(a) treatment, vitamin D blood levels. But when you see a woman reduce her heart scan score 63%, or a school principal's score plummet 51%, then that's reward in itself.

It's all about plaque

Just to keep my finger on the pulse of what is being said in the world of heart disease by the media, I subscribe to many publications.

Conversations abound about cholesterol, low-fat diets, now low-carb diets, not smoking, inflammation, etc. No doubt, these all have some importance in the conversation.

But the great majority of discussions fail to identify the one truly crucial factor to identify and track: coronary atherosclerotic plaque.

Sugar for breakfast

We were reviewing Stuart's diet because of his persistent small LDL, low HDL, modestly elevated triglycerides, and blood sugar of 107 mg/dl.

"I've changed my diet, doc. No kidding. We never fry our foods. No butter, no goodies. I don't know what else I can possibly do."

"Okay. Let's review your diet. What did you have for breakfast?"

"Orange juice, a big glass. Gotta get my potassium. Then cereal like Cheerios or Shredded Wheat, sometimes Kashi or Raisin Bran, always in skim milk. Gotta have my one slice of toast, no butter. I'll put some fruit preserves on it. You know, real fruit. Only whole wheat bread, never white. On Sundays, we always go out for pancakes, but now we order only whole wheat."

Many of us have gotten into a peculiar habit: Having what amounts to pure sugar for breakfast. Perhaps there's a little fiber thrown in with it, but many people indulge in breakfasts that are sugar and plenty of it. That's precisely what Stuart is doing: A breakfast that, while it doesn't contain a huge amount of sugar outside of the orange juice, is promptly converted to sugar. If we were to check his blood sugar just after his standard breakfast, it would rise substantially.

This pattern has become deeply ingrained into the American psyche. Some people will act like I've suggested we overthrow the government when I suggest that breakfast cereals need to be eliminated from their lives. We all share memories of Tony the Tiger, the leprechaun on Lucky Charms ("They're magically delicious!), reading the brightly colored boxes often including games and prizes. Breakfast cereals seem as American as apple pie. But the wheat and corn content ensures a big rise in blood sugar, the sort that create small LDL, low HDL, etc.--all the patterns Stuart is showing--and make us fat.

Orange juice? Too much sugar all at once. Get your potassium from whole vegetables and fruits, not from orange juice. (Bananas are another problem source of potassium for similar reasons despite being a whole fruit.)

Toast? Any diabetic who monitors their blood sugar after meals will tell you: Even one slice of bread, ANY bread, skyrockets blood sugar. Add the fruit preserves made with sugar syrup and it's doubly worse.

Pancakes? Even if made with plenty of fiber, blood sugars go absolutely berserk after a meal like this, especially if maple syrup is added.

In other words, the seemingly healthy breakfast Stuart eats guarantees that he fails to control all his patterns that contribute to his coronary plaque growth.

After I pointed out Stuart's dietary faux pas, he asked, "Then what the heck can I eat?"

"There's actually lots of good choices: Eggs (preferably free-range, if available, or the 'omega-3' enriched) or Egg Beaters; oat products, but true oat products like slow-cooked oatmeal, or the best of all, oat bran, used as a hot cereal; ground flaxseed as a hot cereal with added fruit, berries, nuts; a handful of raw almonds, walnuts, pecans; some cheese, preferably traditional fermented cheese and not processed; low-fat cottage cheese; low-fat yogurt that you flavor yourself with berries and nuts; raw seeds like sunflower and pumpkin.

"Try and save some of your dinner foods for breakfast. For instance, save some green peppers and onions from your salad and put it in your scrambled eggs along with some olive oil. Save some of the chicken and add it to your breakfast. Save some of the cooked vegetables and have them as they are. You'll be surprised how filling dinner foods can be when eaten for breakfast."

It's not that tough. But Stuart and many other people need to break the hold that the food manufacturers have created. If you're hoping to seize hold of your heart scan score, get rid of the sugar foods in your morning, even the ones cleverly disguised as healthy.

The Low-Carb Man

If ever there was an enthusiastic disciple of deceased Dr. Robert Atkins of Atkins' Diet fame, it's Mr. Jimmy Moore.








Jimmy tells the story of how he was transformed by the Atkins' approach, losing 180 lbs in the course of one year. He continues to develop this conversation, in many ways elaborating on the conversation in more sophisticated ways than even Atkins did in his lifetime.

Though we've agreed to disagree on some points of nutrition, Jimmy and I had a recent discussion about heart disease, the mis-guided ways of conventional cardiac care,and the evils of processed carbohydrates. We do differ on the role of saturated fat in heart disease and health, but beyond that difference I was impressed (reading his Blog and listening to his many webcasts) with his level of understanding of the issues. Jimmy is not some over-enthusiastic dieter. He has a grasp of the issues that exceeds that of 99% of my colleagues.

If you are interested in reading our discussion or just perusing a really fun, informative Blog/website, go to LivinLaVidaLowCarb.com. The interview is posted at:

http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2007/08/davis-wanna-cut-plaque-in-your-arteries.html


See Jimmy Moore's before and after pictures at http://livinlavidalocarb.blogspot.com/2005/07/my-before-pictures.html. He's quite an entertaining read.

Why average cholesterol values can be so bad

Jack had been told again and again that there was absolutely nothing wrong with his cholesterol panel. His numbers:

Total cholesterol 198 mg/dl

LDL cholesterol 119 mg/dl--actually below the national average (131 mg/dl).

HDL 48 mg/dl--actually above the average HDL for a male (42 mg/dl).

Triglycerides 153 ng/dl--right at the average.


So his primary care physician was totally stumped when Jack's heart scan revealed a score of 410.


Lipoprotein analysis (NMR) told an entirely different story:

LDL particle number 1880 nmol/l (take off the last digit to generate an approximate real LDL, i.e., 188 mg/dl).

Small LDL 95% of all LDL particles, a very severe pattern.

A severe excess of intermediate-density lipoprotein (218 nmol/l), suggesting that dietary fats are not cleared for 24 hours or so after a meal.

And those were just the major points. In other words, where conventional cholesterol values, or lipids, failed miserably, lipoprotein analysis can shine. The causes for Jack's high heart scan score become immediately apparent, even obvious. Jack's abnormalities are relatively easy to correct--but you have to know if they're present before they can be corrected. A shotgun statin drug approach could only hope to correct a portion of this pattern, but would unquestionably fail to fully correct the pattern.

As I've said before, standard cholesterol testing is a fool's game. You can squeeze a little bit of information out of them, but there's so much more information that can be easily obtained through lipoprotein testing like Jack had.

Cholesterol trumps heart scan?

Lela's heart scan score: 449--very high for a 49-year old, peri-menopausal woman. Her score placed her flat in the 99th percentile, or the worst 1% of women her age.

Lela first consulted her primary care physician. Her doctor looked at the result puzzled. "Now wait a minute. Your cholesterol numbers have been great." After a pause, her doctor (a woman) declared the heart scan wrong. "Tests aren't perfect. The heart scan is simply wrong. I'm going to believe the cholesterol numbers and there's no way you have heart disease."

Is that right? Can cholesterol numbers trump your heart scan score? Can the heart scan simply be wrong?

The answer is simple: NO.

The heart scan is not wrong. The heart scan is right. What is wrong with this picture is that standard cholesterol testing commonly and frequently fails to identify people at risk for heart disease.

What if this woman smoked? That wouldn't be revealed in her cholesterol panel. Or had high blood pressure, increased inflammatory responses like C-reactive protein, had increased small LDL or lipoprotein(a), was severely deficient in vitamin D? None of that would be revealed by cholesterol numbers.

So, no, the heart scan is not wrong. The cholesterol numbers are not wrong. The doctor's interpretation of the data is wrong.

Please do not allow false reassurances offered by those who do not understand the technology steer you wrong.

This woman proved to have an entire panel of hidden causes of her coronary plaque uncovered. No surprise.

Boycott LabCorp

Track Your Plaque Members have been following this conversation on the Track Your Plaque Forum.

A good number of people have had their blood drawn for NMR lipoprotein analysis through laboratories operated by the Laboratory Corporation of American, or LabCorp. When the results were returned, the very important page 2 of the report was withheld. Many of us have communicated with the company, only to be given some corporate-speak about internal policy.

I have personally expressed my dissatisfaction, my outrage, at this silly policy. Why would laboratory results that you or your insurance paid for be denied to you? It is my understanding that, on request, you are legally entitled to the information. The page 2 information is provided by the laboratory (Liposcience, Inc.) that actually performs the testing. LabCorp does nothing more than draw the blood, prepare the specimen, then convey and dilute the results that Liposcience reports to them.

My personal suspicion is that the LabCorp people do this to 1) make the results appear that they actually performed the tests and not farmed to an outside laboratory (Liposcience), and 2) not further confuse and befuddle the bungling primary care physician who barely understands cholesterol issues to begin with. "LDL, HDL, triglycerides . . . What now--a bunch of new information, bars even!?

To me, this LabCorp policy is criminal. In fact, I wonder if this has the substance to justify a class action lawsuit against LabCorp. I believe that we can easily make a case that crucial health information is being systematically denied to people.

If this has affected you, or if you share in the frustration of many people who have had watered down lipoprotein results provided, write to:


Ken Younts, VP of Sales at LabCorp. Yountsk@labcorp.com


Or, write to:

Tom MacMahon
Chairman of the Board

David P. King
President and Chief Executive Officer

Laboratory Corporation of America Holdings
358 South Main Street
Burlington, NC 27215



Thanks to the Track Your Plaque Members who have already participated in this campaign and written to the LabCorp people. And thanks to our Members who uncovered the contact information.

Until then, please BOYCOTT LABCORP LABORATORIES. Please do not use LabCorp Laboratories if you can avoid it. Simply ask the laboratory staff who operates the lab and they should tell you. It is your right to know.

Useless low-fat diets

If you would like to read an ironic testimonial to the futility of conventional low-fat diets, read:

Cutting Cholesterol, an Uphill Battle on the New York Times website at http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/21/health/21brod.html?_r=2&adxnnl=1&oref=slogin&ref=health&adxnnlx=1187928650-f0mfyzGTFdsLmtInHcGPUw

In this story, author and columnist Jane Brody recounts her struggles with her cholesterol levels. She describes how she followed an increasingly strict low-saturated fat diet, hoping to reduce LDL cholesterol. But she saw the opposite occur: LDL climbed from an initial 134 to 171, a level that caused her doctor to prescribe a statin drug.

Yet she states that "About 85 percent of the cholesterol in your blood is made in your body. The remaining 15 percent comes from food. But by reducing dietary sources of saturated fats and cholesterol and increasing consumption of cholesterol-fighting foods and drink, you can usually lower the amount of harmful cholesterol in your blood."

Had Ms. Brody and her doctor been just a bit better informed and performed lipoprotein analysis instead, they would have seen some obvious phenomena:

--All the increase in LDL was in the fraction of small particles, the sort highly likely to cause heart attack.

--The conventional LDL that she quotes is a calculated value that miserably misrepresents the real LDL when actually measured. Her calculated LDL of 171 mg/dl, in fact, was probably more like 220 to 250 mg/dl--much higher than they think.


Of course, Ms. Brody turns to her conventionally-thinking physician who then predictably prescribes a statin drug.

Ms. Brody's well-articulated story achieves the ironic, unintended result of proving the idiocy of the conventional low-fat diet. The low-fat diet, as currently practiced by most people, raises LDL cholesterol and escalates risk for heart disease. In fact, Ms. Brody probably increased her risk far more than suggested by a 30 mg increase in LDL.

One of my favorite blogs, the Fanatic Cook, has a tremendously insightful post on Ms. Brody's misadventures.

If all she did was eliminate all wheat flour containing products and reduce the overall glycemic index of her diet, she would witness an enormous drop in LDL cholesterol, both calculated and measured.

I hope that Ms. Brody survives her diet mistakes and her doctor's ignorance.
Diet: One size does NOT fit all

Diet: One size does NOT fit all

Heart Scan Blog reader, Frustrated, posted this comment:

Dr. Davis,
I have spent the last 5 months eating a diet that completely eliminated all wheat products. It was very low carb, and consisted of relatively high protein (eggs, grass fed beef, grass fed raw cheese, oily fish, chicken), good level of olive oil, walnuts, fish oil (3 mg per day), raw vegetables, little bit of fruit. So I had good amount of monounsaturated fat as well as saturated fat from eggs and grass fed products.

My recent NMR showed:
LDL-p. 2,800
Small LDL particle 1700
Small HDL particle 20
HDL-C 40
LDL-C 114
Trigs. 224
Total chol 208

So I was disappointed. Where have I gone wrong? No wheat and sky-high LDL-p and 1700 small LDL particles.


This is indeed unusual. I see this perhaps 5 or 6 times over a year's time, while thousands of other people show the usual expected respone. I don't have Frustrated's lipoprotein panel prior to starting the diet, but I'll bet the starting panel was similar to this "after" panel.

The overwhelming majority of people who follow a diet like the one described--no wheat, limited carbohydrate, grass fed beef, fish, chicken, vegetables, limited fruit--obtain extravagant reductions in small LDL, increased HDL, and reduced triglycerides. So why did Frustrated end up with such disappointing results, values that potentially provide for high risk for heart disease?

There are several possibilities:

1) He/she is in the midst of substantial weight loss. When labs are drawn in the midst of weight loss, stored energy is being mobilized into the blood stream. This energy is mobilized as fatty acids and triglycerides which, upon entering the blood stream, cause increased triglycerides, reduced HDL, chaotic or unpredictable small LDL patterns, and increased blood sugar sufficient to be in the diabetic or pre-diabetic range. This all subsides and settles down to better values around 2 months after weight loss has plateaued.

2) Apo E4--If Frustrated has one or two apo E4 genes, then increased dietary fat will serve to exaggerate measures like small LDL despite the reduction in carbohydrates, LDL particle number, and triglycerides. This is a tough situation, since small LDL particles and high triglycerides signal carbohydrate sensitivity, while apo E4 makes this person, in effect, unable to deal with fats and dietary cholesterol. It gives me the creeps to talk about reducing fat intake, but this becomes necessary along with carbohydrate restriction, else statin drugs will come to the "rescue."

3) Apo E2 + Apo E4--It's possible that an apo E2 is present along with apo E4. Apo E2 makes this person extremely carbohydrate-sensitive and diabetes-prone with awful postprandial (after-meal) persistence of dietary byproducts, alongside the hyperabsorption of fats and dietary cholesterol from apo E4. This is a genuine nutritional rock and a hard place.

4) Other variants--There are probably a dozen or more other genetic variants, thankfully rare, such as apo B and apo C2 variants, that are not generally available for us to measure that could influence Frustrated's response.

5) The low-carb diet is not truly low-carb--Frustrated sounds like a pretty sharp cookie. But it's not uncommon for someone to overlook a substantial source of carbohydrate exposure that triggers these patterns. Fruit is a very common tripping point, since people generally regard unlimited fruit as a healthy thing. This does not seem to be Frustrated's problem. Others indulge in quinoa, sweet potatoes, millet or other carbohydrate sources that look and sound healthy but, in sufficient quantities, can still trigger this pattern.

6) Other--Hypothyroidism, kidney disease, nephrotic syndrome, hypercortisolism and some other relatively rare conditions are worth considering if none of the above apply.

Anyway, that's the list I use when this peculiar situation arises. If obvious weight loss is not the culprit, the next step is apo E testing. However, the wrong response is to reject the low-carbohydrate notion altogether and just limit fat, since this typically leads to uncontrolled small LDL, high triglycerides, and diabetes. It can often mean limiting carbohydrates while also limiting fats. Just as with the combination of apo E4 with Lipoprotein(a), I lump many of these patterns into the emerging world of genetic incompatibilities, genetic traits that code for incompatible metabolic phenomena.


Comments (33) -

  • David Horry

    8/24/2011 6:03:44 AM |

    Hi Dr Davis,
    I am an apoe4 carrier. My trig=62, HDL=69; LDL-C=175 after 16 months on a carbohydrate restricted, gluten free diet. Wondering whether I need to also reduce my fat intake. But then what is left to eat? Making up the calorie difference with protein does not sound too healthy.

    David

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/24/2011 12:24:19 PM |

    Hi, David--

    I would urge you to NOT rely on the calculated LDL value, since on a low-carb diet with potential conversion of small to large LDL particles calculated LDL can substantially overestimate true LDL.

    The best: LDL particle number through NMR lipoprotein analysis. The next best: apoprotein B, widely available from nearly all labs.

    When you're armed with this information, then you can make an intelligent decision about diet changes.

  • Paul

    8/24/2011 1:43:34 PM |

    Regarding Item 6

    There was some traffic between Chris Kresser and Jimmy Moore on Twitter yesterday regarding whether low carb caused low T3 in susceptible individuals. Clearly bad news for heart health.

    I am a treated hypothyroid and this was my recent experience - I had gone low carb and ended up with an abscess in the roof of my mouth that needed antibiotics.  When tested, my T3 had fallen from 5.5 to 3.8 (RR 4 - 6.8) - however, my TSH was 0.672 (RR 0.35-4.5).  In the UK, this low T3 would normally would have been missed as there is a TSH only testing policy here unless the TSH is found to be outside the reference range - I elected to pay privately for the T3 test.

    I remain on low-carb (and wheat free of course) as it is the only approach which allows me to lose weight, and have increased my meds from 75T4+20T3 to 100T4+40T3.

    I would query whether you consider hypothyroidism to be rare. I suspect it is very common.

  • steve

    8/24/2011 6:52:16 PM |

    Hi Dr. Davis:
    What if the patient  followed the above diet, had a particle count of 2,100, but only 200 were small and HDL 69 and Trgs 66.  Would this be acceptable, and better than a particle count of 640, less than 90 small, HDL 64, Trgs 45, but on statin and Zetia?  Assume thyroid and D all normal, and Apo E3/3
    Thanks for all the input

  • Chris

    8/24/2011 7:26:24 PM |

    Hi Dr Davis,
    This post really hit home with me (and ironically this is my first visit to your site).  I had a heart attack 2 years ago (34 years old, ate well or so I thought, in great physical condition at 5'9" 150 lbs).  My cardiologist advised the usual low fat diet and pravastatin, and while my lipids are better than they were, I'm still very concerned they are not near where they should be.

    About 5 weeks ago I found the primal diet and began eating that diet.  Last week I had another lipid test and my numbers actually got worse (not by much).  Would you mind reviewing my numbers and if you have any suggestions I would appreciate it.

    8/31/2009 heart attack
    total chol 115
    LDL 74
    HDL 16
    Triglycerides 126
    VLDL 25

    07/19/2010 checkup
    total chol 138
    LDL 64
    HDL 33
    Triglycerides 203
    VLDL 41

    03/21/2011 Healthfair
    total chol 122
    LDL 69
    HDL 31
    Triglycerides 111
    VLDL 22

    8/19/2011 walk in lab:
    total chol 159
    LDL 98
    HDL 34
    Triglycerides 135
    VLDL 27

    Glucose 97
    hsCRP 1.2
    A1c 5.5

    Do you suggest giving the "primal" diet more time or do you suspect I may have another condition causing this?

  • Chris

    8/24/2011 7:36:33 PM |

    Also in May of this year I had the following tests done at the cardiologists:
    Date of service: May 13, 2011
    CAT Scan MRI & NMR
    Diagnostic Radiology X-Ray
    Cardiovascular Stress Test

    I was told everything was fine.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    8/25/2011 2:28:51 AM |

    Track Your Plaque once gave a desirable level of ApoB  as under 70 mg.dl as surrogate marker for the desirable LDL particle number (which is less than 700 nm/l) if one only has ApoB testing.  Maybe some one else can recall the conversion ratio of ApoB into LDL particle numbers.

    A cholesterol fractions normal transfer from HDL to ApoB is governed by  the cholesterol ester transfer protein (CETP). Genetic variants of CETP can cause differences in the numbers of  small LDL and sparse CETP can cause cholesterol to stay stuck in HDL  ( CETP has little impact on numerical % of HDL). So genetic variants of ApoB can influence the levels of cholesterol shunting around.

    In  the liver ApoB normally gets it's lipids when ApoB goes into a cell's endoplasmic reticulum. And if the ApoB doesn't improperly degrade ( ApoB needs "enough" microsomal triglyceride transfer protein SREBP-1c, the sterol regulatory element binding protein, to avoid degrading) then ApoB can pick up triglycerides to form VLDL molecules. So, if there is not enough liver SREBP-1c  then lipids can't be transferred over to make triglyceride rich VLDL; conversely lots of liver SREBP-1c provokes extra VLDL.

    Doc says carbohydrate related  post-prandial high glucose not only induces  more VLDL output  from the liver but that this is part of the mechanism whereby carbs can boost body fat. High carbohydrate intake causes extra lipo-genesis in the liver because a significant  reflex of high post -prandial liver insulin is a signal that upregulates SREBP-1c. Then SREBP-1c expression rises and that in turn activates genes for the lipogenic enzymes (ex: fatty acid synthesase & acetyl CoA carboxylase),

    Rogue readings of VLDL may be due to viral hepatitis proteins, flavivirus and pestivirus, which can decrease VLDL formation and secretion while dropping levels of ApoB. Viral proteins "smear" onto lipids and this blocks SREBP-1c action and viral proteins can also "stick" on to the HDL protein fraction ApoA1 inside of the  liver cells' Golgi Apparatus. Thus in chronic liver disease and hepatitis circulating VLDL associated triglycerides eventually decreases so there are more non-VLDL  triglycerides in play.

  • Jack Daniels

    8/25/2011 11:49:38 AM |

    Hi Dr. Davis,

    I was just wondering, due to many healthy cultures including the kitava, okinawan's...etc, who indulge in rather high carb intakes and retain rather pristine health, is it possible that high trigs, low hdl..etc may just be a lipid profile reflecting high carb* intake rather than suggesting atherogenic buildup ?

    *when based on safe starchy type carbs

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/25/2011 3:42:09 PM |

    Hi, Paul--
    In the population I see, hypothyroidism is exceptionally common, both in people on low-carb but also in people prior to initiating their low-carb efforts. So, without a formal analysis, I'm skeptical that low-carb in and of itself causes free T3 to drop.
    There are also numerous inhibitors of the 5'-deiodinase enzyme that converts T4 to T3, including perchlorate residues from fertilizers in vegetables and polyfluorooctanoic acid, the residue of non-stick cookware, just to name a couple.

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/25/2011 3:43:29 PM |

    This is the BIG unanswered question. Sadly, there are next to no data that speaks to this question.
    My day to day answer has been to 1) eliminate small LDL, then 2) maintain LDL particle number 1500 nmol/L or less. But that is pure speculation on my part.

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/25/2011 3:45:22 PM |

    Hi, Chris--
    Something doesn't compute: Every panel you list is the pattern of excessive carbohydrate consumption and/or sensitivity. So something is sneaking through. There is no question that a "primal" or low-carbohydrate approach works for this pattern.  

    You might also have an Apo E2 gene that amplifies carbohydrate sensitivity.

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/25/2011 3:47:01 PM |

    Hi, Might--
    As always, you are an incredible fountain of unique insights!

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/25/2011 3:47:44 PM |

    Sorry, Jack, I didn't understand your question. Could you rephrase?

  • Chris

    8/25/2011 4:28:55 PM |

    Thanks.  I've only been eating primal/paleo for about five weeks, so only the last panel would reflect this (if thats enough time to be reflected in my lipid panel).  I will re-test after another few months.

  • Jack Kronk

    8/25/2011 4:53:55 PM |

    Dr Davis. Jeez. This sounds similar to my story (Frustrated's #s). I have eaten Paleo for over a year now, I have done exceedingly well with body composition in that time. See my "Share You Paleo Before and After" here ---> http://paleohacks.com/questions/7058/share-your-paleo-before-and-after/28493#28493. But this only adds to the confusion for me (and others).

    For some reason, my labs came back on July 8, 2011 with small dense LDL and pathetic HDL at 40, despite a diet rich in GF beef, pastured eggs, bacon, pasture butter, coconut oil, ghee, veggies, starch and fruits only for carb sources, etc etc. I spend mega money to eat well. We don't mess around. I posted my VAP panel results on PaleoHacks last month and it has resulted in a lot of attention on this very subject. Chris Masterjohn weighed in with his thoughts. Dr Kruse wrote a blog all about it.

    http://paleohacks.com/questions/50347/hack-jack-kronks-vap-test-results

    I will be retesting again in about a month, as I have made some changes, like eliminating bananas, less heavy cream and pasture butter, etc.

    My lab said it's $390 just to do the ApoE test. Is this a normal price? If not, where do you recommend people get the testing done?

    I'm genuinely confused. It's like my body is saying... "Yes Jack. Good job. I am very happy with what you are eating. I will continue to keep fat off and pack on muscle." But then my heart is saying "Nooooo. Stop!!"

    How can this be?

  • Jack Daniels

    8/25/2011 5:29:06 PM |

    I was questioning if your pathological interpretation of a blood lipid profile that exhibits low hdl and high triglycerides, could instead just be a reflection of a high carb diet rather than suggesting an increased risk for CVD. I was referencing a couple high carb cultures, such as the Okinawa and the kitava, who exhibit a similar lipid profile but have very small incidence of CVD. Compared to other cultures with similar lipid profiles, such as the Swedes and Americans, who have much higher rates of CVD would suggest it's more about quality of blood lipids rather than their certain partitioning. Hopefully that's a better re-phrasal?

  • steve

    8/25/2011 5:57:08 PM |

    This is the BIG unanswered question. Sadly, there are next to no data that speaks to this question.
    My day to day answer has been to 1) eliminate small LDL, then 2) maintain LDL particle number 1500 nmol/L or less. But that is pure speculation on my part.

    My understanding related to your above comment is that large LDL is nearly as athrogenic as small LDL and that you want the particle number low with mix between largle and small LDL taking secondary importance.  Of course, that is based on a diet that the avg american consumes,  and not on the low carb with wheat sugar and cornstarch elimination you advocate.
    Am i under a correct understanding regarding large LDL being dangerous as well and therefore the need to minimize this even with your dietary recommendations?  Also, i thought you advocated a total LDL particle number to approach 600?  Is your 1500 number a revised viewpoint based on newer diet or clinical observations?
    Thank you again.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    8/25/2011 7:53:36 PM |

    Server error blocking me again ... testing after hour passed.

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    8/25/2011 8:49:34 PM |

    ApoE is crucial to VLDL & chylomicron formation. Variant ApoE 2 less efficient at transfering lipids to liver and is binding lipids up an extra +/- 2%; result is that lipids take longer to clear from circulation and more can go wrong. From my notes, here is the rate some ancestral populations have at least 1 copy of ApoE2: 2-4% of Mexican-american & American Indian, also  3-4% of Japanese & West African. There is 0% of South American Indians with ApoE2 and one wonders which variation of  ApoE  might be in Kitava melanesians. .
    ApoE4 degrades easiest of all ApoE forms, leaving protein fragments in cell's cytosol which then can affect a mitochondria's lipid binding region impairing the performing of  tasks. In addition ApoE4 fragments diminish gene PPAR gamma expression; and this depresses the desirable bio-genesis of mitochondria. The affects on mitochondria may be why high levels of dietary fat is problematic for ApoE4 individuals; there may be too sparse output of viable mitochondria and mitochondria membranes are involved in how efficiently we burn fat or glucose.  .
    In light of these ApoE4 nuances it is interesting to know that fasting raises free fatty acid levels (from fats in the body and not loose fats from recent food); and then those free fatty acids upregulate  gene for PPAR gamma in the liver. Fasting makes one put out ketones  because of the extra PPAR gamma programing and this ketogenesis is also one way that activating more PPAR gamma improves insulin sensitivity. This suggests to me that individuals with ApoE4 may (?) find some benefit from modified fasting; possibly something like decidedly fewer meals in a day and also simply not grazing on snacks (ie: in addition to just trying to select what foods to eat) between meals that are regularly spaced apart (ie: very early breakfast to let meal times spread put more evenly) .

    Finally again from my notes, here is the rate some ancestral population have at least 1 copy of ApoE4: .14-19% Germans & Finns, also 7-12%  French & Italians. Of course America is one of the world's melting pots so an individual's propensity for ApoE 4 & ApoE 2 is hard to pin point.

  • Jack Kronk

    8/25/2011 9:02:36 PM |

    This is fascintaing Might. I have been guilty of snacking too much. All healthy snacks, but still the concept of grabbing bites of delicious foods between meals might be messing with my liver. For my VAP test, I did not fast. Chris Masterjohn believes this was the reason (or at least the reason for dismissal) of my increase in triglycerides in the blood. I am most concerned about my low HDL, because if I raise my HDL, I believe my LDL will become more dominantly pattern A.

  • Paul

    8/25/2011 11:04:33 PM |

    Thank you for the reply.  I would like to share a speculation.  Strict low carb means gluconeogenesis means an increased cortisol demand? OK in young fit Paleo men, but what about long-term un(der)treated hypothyroid individuals?

    In "Safe Uses of Cortisol", Dr William Mck Jefferies (p. 183/4) observes that low dose (20mg/day) of hydrocortisone taken by a patient with hypothyroidism increases T3,  lowers T4 and improves patient energy levels suggesting such low dose cortisol enhances T4 to T3 conversion.

    Could VLC, by putting demands on potentially weakened adrenals, have the opposite effect?

  • Might-o'chondri-AL

    8/26/2011 12:10:58 AM |

    HDL molecules hold triglycerides (there are 45 different variations of triglycerides in circulation, which are based on what their esterified fatty acid component is), cholesterol esters (about 13 - 27% of the HDL surface particles), shingomyelins and glycerophospholipids. HDL's principle proteins are +/- 70% ApoA1 and +/- 20% ApoA2;  yet any changes in the ratio of ApoA2 from genetics (Kitavans?, I propose so) or drugs (ex:fibrates) can have effects.  

    Usually people with low levels of  HDL have more trigs on their HDL surface (compared to those with high levels of HDL) and low HDL is associated with the passing of more cholesterol esters to VLDL & chylomicrons. Also, when HDL trig levels go up that makes it easier for the liver enzyme hepatic lipase to cleave off more ApoA1 for the kidneys to clear away; and that further tends to keep HDL levels low.  

    In comparison people with high levels of HDL have more cholesterol esters on their HDL; which may be due in part to cholesterol esters affinity for ApoA1 in HDL. And statisticly high levels of HDL are usually associated with bigger ("large") HDL molecule size. Both large HDL and ApoA1 are considered to be more protective factors against atherosclerosis.

    I suspect that Kitavan melanesians' low HDL fortuitously correlates with a geneticly higher than normal % of ApoA2; and ApoA2 configures more deeply nestled into the HDL complex than ApoA1. It (ApoA2) influences molecular  interactions all the way to the HDL surface and limits certain lipid dynamics.

    ApoA2 holds ApoA1 off of mature HDL molecules and this results in a shunting of ApoA1 into forming up the pre-Beta HDL; these lipid poor ApoA1 configurations are great at doing reverse cholesterol transport that brings back cholesterol  to the liver for excreting as bile acids. Those pre-Beta HDL are small, yet notably excellent at taking cholesterol away from nefarious macrophage foam cells (the large HDL  molecule also picks cholesterol nicely from foam cells).

    Experiments see that preceeding type of change with fibrate drug doses, which only minimally raise HDL & ApoA1 yet increase the ApoA2 amount in HDL by over 25%. Since fibrates are agonists activating the peroxisome proliferator activiated receptor PPAR alpha it might be instructive to see if anything in the Kitavan diet is a similar agonist, such as heirloom tuber roots derived from wild yam with high diosgenin content (diosgenin is well known to affect PPAR gamma).

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/26/2011 5:15:14 PM |

    Hi, Steve--
    There really is no final word on what the desired endpoint is when small LDl has been eliminated and you have pure large LDL. In a perfect world, I'd wish for a particle number of 600 nmol/L with pure large LDL. But I'm no longer entirely sure this is necessary. But this remains anecdotal. There are no formal data, nor do I have any formal analysis of our own data on this question.

  • Dr. William Davis

    8/26/2011 5:17:32 PM |

    Hi, Jack--
    Don't know, since I've never seen any genuine lipoprotein data on these populations. Most of the data I've seen has been total cholesterol, which is far too crude to draw any conclusions from.

    Have you seen lipoprotein data on these populations?

  • Jack Kronk

    8/26/2011 5:33:12 PM |

    Might. Do you suspect that I have low HDL and highish Trigs/VLDL in the blood for this reason? I do take in a fair amount of protein (including a whey isolate daily). Also, plenty of eggs. Does dietary protein consumption have any actual affect on HDL's principle protein and/or surface cholesterol esters?

  • The Surgical Blog

    8/27/2011 3:52:44 AM |

    Yes Jack Kronk, it seems that you have low HDL and highish Trigs, I do also think.

  • Nancy Milligan

    8/28/2011 7:51:57 PM |

    Just wanted to comment. I've been a long time low carb person, gluten-free too. I also had my thyroid ablated with RAI many years ago. I have found, as have many low carbers, that my reverse T3 is very high and Free T3 is scraping the bottom or below the range.

    Unfortunately this does seem to be a common side-effect of low carb eating. It's even documented in studies on the topic.

    We had a low carb eater recently watching his LDL climb to very high levels after he began eating low carb. He started taking cytomel and his LDL is coming down very nicely.

    Did he get a sudden onset of hypothyroidism that just coincided with low carb eating? I suppose that's possible, but I do think there's something more going on.

    I'm taking Armour thyroid myself, but I still have the tendency to turn T4 into reverse T3 and I suppose that means the Free T3 can't get to the receptors. I'm going to experiment with raising my carbs a little higher and sticking to things like yams and squash for my carbs.

  • Espen Rostrup

    8/31/2011 12:33:45 PM |

    Dear dr. Davis,
    I just attended the annual cardiology congress of the European Society of Cardiology. Amongst others, the new guidelines on dyslipidemia were presented and I had the opportunity to ask the working group the question you mention above in your first of opportunities : What about measuring lipids during an ongoing substantial weight loss? The were not able to give me a proper answer.
    Do you have any scientific references saying that weight loss induce a temporary dyslipidemia or is it based on your experience?
    I would be most thankful for your comment on this.
    Best regards
    Espen Rostrup, MD, PhD-fellow
    Bergen, Norway

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/2/2011 2:56:29 AM |

    Dr. Rostrup--

    Unfortunately, I know of no published data documenting this effect. However, I have seen it hundreds of times. It is, in fact, quite predictable: drop in HDL, rise in triglycerides, variable small LDL effects, increased blood glucose. It all subsides and improves over time.

    It would indeed be an interesting study to chronicle the changes serially in a small number of people.

  • Dana

    9/8/2011 8:28:14 PM |

    I am also seeing a heck of a lot of omega-6 intake there.  Also, the healthfulness of monounsaturated fats is a bit overstated.  I've heard of studies where they had 3 groups of people.  One got their normal saturated fat, one group replaced the saturated fat with olive oil and the third group replaced the sat-fat with corn oil.  The corn oil eaters did the worst in health outcomes, but the olive oil group wasn't great either--both groups that replaced the sat-fat did more poorly.  I've heard of other studies where lard was compared with olive oil and the lard-eaters turned out better.  Bottom line, the human body seems to like saturated fat best.  (Lard is not as saturated as butter, but it is more saturated than olive oil.)  If I were in a position to make medical recommendations (I'm not), I'd tell someone like this to ixnay on the plant oils for a while and see what happens.

    It should be noted that one of the more dubious selling points of grass-finished meat is that it is lower in saturated fat.  To me, this is not a selling point.  If this person were only getting PUFAs from their grass-finished meat it would be one thing--at least then it'd be closer to a 1:1 omega-6/omega-3 ratio.  But that's not what's going on here.  If they were just eating the fish they might still be OK (depends on the fish--cold-water is better).  But they're adding in walnut oil and chicken consumption and those are going to add more omega-6, even if the chicken's pastured.

    I'm curious what this person's inflammation markers are.  If they're off the map the LDL may still be high because the body's trying to repair the inflammation.  That would explain the low HDL too; LDL takes cholesterol out to the body from the liver, and HDL returns it to the liver.  If the cholesterol is *needed* elsewhere in the body then of course it won't be returned to the liver.

    Even if inflammation markers are normal, this person's diet may not be meeting their needs for saturated fats in the cell membranes, which may mean they need more cholesterol in their cell membranes to try to make up the deficit.  Not an ideal situation.

    Get the PUFA reduced, get the inflammation down if any, see what the lipids do and then we can talk about weird genes.  Absent the necessary DNA profile we really don't know, anyway.

  • Dana

    9/8/2011 8:31:06 PM |

    "just eating the fish" = in addition to the pastured beef.  I would not drop beef in favor of fish, there's too much good nutrition a person would be giving up, but fish in addition to beef's not bad.  Chicken used to be a luxury food, you had it on Sundays if then.  Best that it's relegated to that role again.  The white meat is too dry and the dark meat's rife with PUFAs.  Other fowl are not much better.  A foray into the USDA's nutritional database is an eye-opener.

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