Fasting with green tea

I've been playing around with brief (18-24 hour) fasts with the use of green tea. Of the several variations on fasting, such as juice "fasts,"  I've been most impressed with the green tea experience.

While the weight loss effects of daily green tea consumption are modest, there seems to be a specific satiety effect that has now been demonstrated in multiple studies, such as this and this. In other words, green tea, through an uncertain mechanism, reduces hunger. The effect is not just due to volume, since the effect cannot be reproduced with hot water alone.

I therefore wondered whether green tea might be a useful beverage to consume during a fast, as it might take the "edge" off of hunger. While hunger during a fast in the wheat-free is far less than wheat-consuming humans, there is indeed an occasional twinge of hunger felt.

So I tried it, brewing a fresh 6-8 oz cup evert two hours or so. I brewed a pot in the morning while at home, followed by brewing single cups using my tea infuser at the office. Whenever I began to experience a hunger pang, I brewed another cup and sipped it. I was pleasantly surprised that hunger was considerably reduced. I sailed through my last 18 hours, for instance, effortlessly. The process was actually quite pleasant.

I brew loose Chinese bancha, sencha, and chunmee teas and Japanese gyokuro tea. Gyokuro is my favorite, but also the most expensive. Bancha is more affordable and I've used that most frequently.

If anyone else gives this a try, please report back your experience.

Comments (34) -

  • Phyllis

    6/1/2011 12:04:50 AM |

    I would like to know if this works with iced green tea as well. I used a method of one meal per day to loose 50+ pounds. I found it pretty easy, all in all, but have regained about 20 now and need to get back on it. I think I will give iced green tea a try! (I'm not crazy about hot green tea, but like it fine iced)

  • preserve

    6/1/2011 12:09:56 AM |

    I use tea as a method of extending eating intervals.  It works well.  I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the "upper" effect.  Ie.  uppers reduce appetite as a result of blocked sensory.

    I find fasting and sensory blocking to be counter-productive.

  • Geoffrey Levens, L.Ac.

    6/1/2011 12:33:19 AM |

    May be other effects but caffeine and it's cousin theobromine in the tea are pretty reliable appetite suppressants.  But isn't getting jacked up (even if only a little) a bit counter productive to some of the potential benefits of fasting?  The idea is to rest your physiology while catabolism is in full swing. Activating the sympathetic nervous system so you don't have to experience the sensations you don't like during the early stages of fasting does not seem to me to really promote that.

  • fredt

    6/1/2011 1:09:29 AM |

    Yes, green tea reduces my hunger; I just use Tetley in the bag. Some of the greens do not have a satiating effect on me, nor do any of the black teas. Coffee increases hunger for me. Bullion cubes or OXO packets also help. I make a 1.5 l thermos, and suck on that until its done. Some days 3 or 4 of them in a day. I think I have more hunger than most people, but I am down 55 kgs, 2 to 4 years ago and have been down for 2 years.

    The other thing that helps me is chew-able Vitamin C, a couple of 500s any time I feel hungry. It seems to raise BG, possible due to BG sparing, as it is required for far oxidation, or inside cell far transport, depending on who is explaining. Two 500's raise my BG form 4.0 to 5.3 -- OK US 72 to 95.
    I am off wheat mostly; occasionally Clam chowder, sausages, and a few crackers for low BG issues. One cracker raises BG 1.5 at 15 mins.

    Thanks for the one hour BG idea. Some of my higher protein meals were a problem, like 280 Calories of canned salmon ran my BG to 9.0 (OK 162). And my doctor says I an not diabetic but my a.m. BG sure is erratic, 4.0 to 6.2 this week.

  • Sharon

    6/1/2011 2:22:06 AM |

    Hey Phyllis, I'm with you. I have been drinking 4 cups green tea made with tea bags and then chilled and have noticed that I'm not as hungry but didn't really connect it with the tea itself. I need to lose 50 lbs and I like the idea of one meal a day.

  • Scott P.

    6/1/2011 2:24:11 AM |

    Green tea, or any tea actually, makes me a little ill on an empty stomach.  Not sure but believe it is the tannins.  I also was consuming a lot of green/white tea while fasting and I just felt really acidic and my face got red splotches, which seems to coincide with acidity.  I know the net result is supposed to be alkaline for green/white tea but that has not been my experience.  Recently, I've been adding a tablespoon of apple cider vinager to a cup of warm water.  Went a fairly easy 18 hours today but did break down and had four or five macadamia nuts around 12 hours in.

  • MAS

    6/1/2011 2:44:37 AM |

    I absolutely drink green and lightly oxidized oolongs during my fasts.   It curbs the hunger and provides focus.  Been doing it for 2.5 years.

  • Dr. William Davis

    6/1/2011 2:49:43 AM |

    After millennia of human starvation, to think that we still have tons to learn about fasting used for health purposes!

    Phyllis--While I've not tried it personally, nor do I know of any formal data, I expect that iced green tea--provided it is real brewed green tea, and not the bottled variety--should work every bit as well.

  • Dianne - TPSW

    6/1/2011 1:28:40 PM |

    I am unable to drink green tea at all on an empty stomach, I will absolutely throw up if I do.  I end up with pullovertothesideoftheroadI'mgoingtopukeyesseriously!".   I actually threw up all over my suit once which was really special.  Green tea with food often makes me queasy as well.  I am allergic to oak so I think there may be a tannin connection as some heavy oak wines are problematic for me.

  • Anne

    6/1/2011 4:46:28 PM |

    I am making today a fast day. I have been drinking a mix of green and white tea but it is decaffeinated.  How often should one fast?

  • Jonathan Carey

    6/1/2011 5:58:30 PM |

    For those who get dizzy on green tea, try puerh tea.  It is a fermented green tea that is also much lower in caffeine and it taste much better than green.  It is the equivalent of drinking an aged red wine over 2 buck chuck.

  • JLL

    6/2/2011 11:27:49 AM |

    This question has been around for quite some time,  but no one seems to know the answer for certain.

    Theoretically at least, consuming antioxidants during fasting could be detrimental to autophagy (removing "junk" cells), since antioxidants might suppress the stress response from fasting. This is why some studies show antioxidants and exercise are a bad combination -- you *want* some stress to happen so that the body can adapt to it.

    Then again, there is the theory that small amounts of antioxidants actually work through the same mechanism as fasting and exercise -- hormesis. In which case fasting + antioxidants might complement each other. But that's just speculation.

    What we do know from studies is that green tea seems to increase weight loss, for example when combined with calorie restriction (and thus should apply to fasting):

    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-increases-weight-loss-during.html

    And when combined with exercise:

    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/03/green-tea-extract-increases-insulin.html
    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/02/green-tea-extract-enhances-abdominal.html

    And when combined with capsaicin (from chilli pepper), it reduces the feeling of hunger and thus calorie intake:

    http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-and-capsaicin-reduce-hunger.html

    So all in all, whatever the mechanism is, if you're fasting just for the sake of losing weight, I'd say green tea is a pretty good bet.

    - JLL

  • Paul Lee

    6/2/2011 12:21:31 PM |

    Would depend on the length of fasts, but the East Stop East method advocates two fasts per week.  My fasts are now usually shorter, as they kind of trained me to stop grazing. I usually don't bother with breakfast now. The more you eat, the more you want to eat sometimes.

  • nina

    6/2/2011 8:10:00 PM |

    I'm subscribed to your blog, but since  you changed format the posts haven't been showing up in my mail box.  I tried to re-subscribe, but am told I'm already subscribed.  How do I get back in the loop?

    Nina

  • Dr. William Davis

    6/3/2011 1:31:00 AM |

    Anyone not receiving email versions of this blog:

    I wonder if the shift over to the new platform caused a few glitches. My blog IT help is out of commission temporarily. Therefore, please sign up again at the top.

    Sorry about that.

  • Dr. Mary Taylor, PT, DPT

    6/3/2011 6:41:41 PM |

    Yes, I completely agree with you! I went 90% wheat and sugar free from November 2010 to February 2011 and lost a whopping 2 pounds. It wasn't until I went to 95% or more wheat free that I was able to start losing weight. I am now 100% wheat free and I have lost 36.2 pounds in 15 weeks. I have also been able to significantly cut my caloric intake to 500-700 calories per day (sometimes less than 500) using iced jasmine green tea. I truly believe that a diet that is lower in calories is better for health. I typically drink 6-8 glasses a day and I really enjoy it. It helps immensely with any hunger I may have and completely satisfies my sense to eat. I use any of the varieties available in tea bag (Numi, Two Leaves and a Bud, Stash, and Mighty Leaf are my favorites). I typically choose whatever's on sale. I also drink a full glass every morning prior to eating and that also seems to stimulate my colon which is a bonus as well when consuming such low caloric counts.

    On a cholesterol and BG level, my family genetics are something that should be studied. While I started my diet at 234.8# on 2/15/2011 (I'm 5'3" and 47 y/o female) my total cholesterol was 167 and my HDL was 54. My 102 y/o grandmother however, has a total cholesterol of 155 and an HDL of 115! My 76 y/o mother also has the same great results but her HDL is "only" 109. Neither of them are on any medication for cholesterol and both of them eat a diet fully based on things we berate on this blog (cookies, bread, ice cream, fried foods, etc). Neither are overweight either. I'm eager to see what my levels become when I reach my goal weight. Maybe I can surpass that HDL of 115!

  • nina

    6/3/2011 9:39:20 PM |

    I tried that before I posted and it tells me I'm already subscribed.

    Nina

  • Ron Saunders

    6/5/2011 8:06:56 AM |

    About 15 years ago I went on a fast and had only water.  The fast lasted for 10 days.  No green tea.  Just water.  After 18 hours, I completely lost any hunger.  Meanwhile I continued to cook meals for my family.  I also continued to go to work every day.

    The experience seemed wonderful.  I had been suffering badly from asthma, and all symptoms disappeared!  I could have kept going forever without eating.  However, after 10 days I started to have problems with urination.  I began excreting small, hard pellets.

    I went to the doctor, and he exploded.  "You bloody fool!" he said.  I had altered the ketone content of my blood.

    So I started eating again.  My first meal was brown rice (no salt).  It was the most beautiful meal I ever had.  Gradually I returned to normal eating.  Gradually I returned to my asthma symptoms. Gradually all meals started tasting the same.

    Did I lose weight?  I'm not sure, as my ketone problem overshadowed all else.  Did I need green tea or anything else to curb my appetite?  No, plain water (not even distilled or bottled water, but tap water) was good enough. Do I recommend fasting?  In moderation.  10 days is far too long.

  • Gabriella Kadar

    6/6/2011 3:20:06 AM |

    Is the fluoride content of any tea (Camellia sinensis) not an issue?  Data on ppm fluoride vary but they all appear to be quite high and much higher than water fluoridation levels.

  • David

    6/7/2011 8:37:20 PM |

    Try Jasmine Tea which is green tea with Jasmine flowers.  Much tastier.
    I don't like plain green tea myself, but I love Jasmine tea.

  • Renfrew

    6/8/2011 8:08:38 AM |

    There is only one problem with green tea: Pesticides.
    Most green tea is imported from India or China because it is the cheapest. On testing, a serious amount of pesticides, fungicides, microcides is found regularly. I wonder if this diminishes the health aspect of green tea.
    I used to buy organic green tea from Japan but after Fukushima that option is also out.
    Still, certified organic is the only option left, I suppose.
    Renfrew

  • nina

    6/8/2011 8:04:07 PM |

    Just tried again and I get the same message 'You're already subscribed'.  Pity that Feedburner no longer delivers to me.

    Nina

  • GaryR

    6/9/2011 9:43:01 AM |

    Started IF HFLC diet three months ago. 30 lbs lost and A1c down to
    5.1 !! (was 6.7 ) . Curiously I have been drinking green tea during the daily 18 hour fasts and hunger is a rare occurance,  hunger pains last only a few seconds. The tea helps,  body and mind trained to not think about food until
    nightly free for all. Thank you, Dr. Davis and contributors>

  • majkinetor

    6/9/2011 1:37:31 PM |

    2 Gabriella

    Flouride IS an issue with green tea. There are known cases of flourde poisoning with excessive green tea drinking - woman drinking equivalent of 20-30 green tea cups per day. This isn't something to worry about on regular usage but if you do it on IF with reduced nutrient input and more frequently to reduce appetite it can become a problem.

    White tea has lower content of fluoride as it is harvested when plant is still young. It is much more expensive but overall better then green tea due to less processing and lower fluoride content.

    Coffee works for me absolutely amazing in reducing hunger. To some people, however, it works the opposite way. My friend develops hand tremor, nervousness, and heat. The same thing she got from the green tea but not other teas. Caffeine might be problematic for some I guess, or maybe tannin. We are currently in the process of isolation of such substance.

    To reduce appetite, I found the following valuable:
    - Garlic, fresh, in tomato juice (parsley can be included to block the smell). The capsule doesn't work.
    - High intensity exercise, short bursts of 15-20 minutes will shut down digestive engine and you will not be able to eat for hour at least.
    - Marijuana restriction - its usage during fat loss might be problematic due to activation of CB1/anandamide system.
    - Periodic IF can learn body to handle prolonged food abstinence. I find that 16-24 hours fast is enough.
    - Almonds, 10-15g, are cool, especially if you tend to go crazy before sleep - its mostly fat which doesn't rise insulin during night. 2g CHO, 3.5g MUFA, 1g PUFA, 2g P is enough to make your hunger go down at least a bit and still keep your insulin down.
    - Water

    I would suggest extensive supplementation during IF - especially Vit C (at least 2g as frequent as possible), Mg, Iodine, Selenium, Idebenon.

  • Sifter

    6/10/2011 4:13:39 AM |

    Drs. Davis or Taylor (or anyone else) have you noticed any issues with accumulated caffeine intake from multiple cups of Green Tea throughout the day?

  • Cate

    6/12/2011 8:22:10 PM |

    Dr. Davis, I hadn't heard about the dangers of pesticide use relating to green tea (as mentioned by Renfew, above)...is this a viable concern?  Since green tea is loaded with antioxidants, do the benefits outweigh the risks in this case?

    I have been drinking about two to three cups of Tazo Zen Green Tea for quite awhile now (hot, as well as chilled), and enjoy it very much.  It does seem to curb cravings quite well.  I also notice increased energy without the edgy side effects that coffee sometimes causes.  Before Tazo, I was not a big fan of the taste of green tea, but the Zen blend also contains lemon verbena, spearmint leaves and lemongrass, which enhances the flavor and makes it quite delicious--providing an "aromatherapy experience" along with the tea consumption.  Smile

  • Evolutionarily

    6/21/2011 7:28:23 AM |

    Thank you for your informative comment JLL!

  • azzy

    6/27/2011 12:15:19 PM |

    me too!i keep hearing about green tea for fasting, so i took it on day 2 i think and was detoxing to fast cos i took it on a empty stomach....:/

  • Logan

    9/15/2011 7:56:34 PM |

    I drink the Tazo Zen Green Tea from Starbucks. I prefer this green tea over any others, however I have noticed extreme dizziness when I drink this tea. Has anyone experienced this? I even bought the tea bags to brew at home, I do not add any sweetener and love the taste. I occasionally drink black tea or soda and do not get the same dizzy feeling, therefore I believe it is not caffeine causing me to feel dizzy it's just green tea. Any suggestions or comments? I like the benefits of green tea but not sure it's worth the dizziness.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:36:08 AM |

    Wacky. No, I'm not sure why this happens.

    Perhaps its some mixture or proportion of the theaflavins or other components. There are hundreds of green tea preparations available. It might be worth finding a happy alternative.

  • Wendy Rahilly

    11/25/2011 3:50:05 PM |

    I have been using green tea for years in weight loss.  You are right, it is not a "speedy" remedy and you will only recognize small affects it has, however, it does work.  On average, it is said that you can burn anywhere from 70 to 80 calories a day drinking green tea.  This is assuming you are drinking at least 3 to 4 cups daily.  It should be combined with water and a healthy diet and exercise.

  • Dr. H

    10/27/2012 11:38:52 AM |

    About the dizziness, I had severe vertigo in the middle of the night, i.e. at 3 am (my blood pressure was 130/100 pr 90), and the day and the night before sleeping, I consumed 4 mugs of green tea. The vertigo was associated with vomiting (which relieved the vertigo for a while). The vertigo lasted till the next day (vomited 4x). The green tea was a gift from a friend who came back from China-loose dried leaves. After that episode, I think I can't make myself to drink green tea again.

  • Jennifer

    2/20/2013 7:12:45 AM |

    I sometimes do a morning 'flush' of green tea, up to 4 freshly brewed mugfuls, with the addition of a squeeze of fresh lemon, which complements the taste and gives extra benefits, vitamin c and supporting detoxification.

    I recently saw a BBC documentary which demonstrated an optimal brew time of 7 minutes for maximum anti-oxidant release.

    Also, the cooled teabags are an excellent beauty treatment for the eye area, squeeze excess moisture and relax for a few minutes.

    Am reluctant to extend beyond midday due to stimulating effect of caffeine, how about switching to other teas that deliver other useful benefits? Ginger, fennel, liquorice come to mind.

    Blessings of health

Loading
China fiction?

China fiction?

Dr. Colin Campbell caused a stir with publication of his 2005 book, The China Study. Dr. Campbell, after extensive animal and epidemiologic research conducted in China over 20 years, concluded that a diet high in animal protein, especially casein, was associated with increased cancer, osteoporosis, and heart disease risk.

Richard Nikoley of Free the Animal and Stephan Guyenet of Whole Health Source have been talking about an analysis of the China Study raw data performed by a young woman named Denise Minger.

Denise's analysis is nothing short of brilliant, absolutely "must" reading for anyone interested in nutrition.

Her comments on the relationship of wheat to heart disease:

Why does Campbell indict animal foods in cardiovascular disease (correlation of +1 for animal protein and -11 for fish protein), yet fail to mention that wheat flour has a correlation of +67 with heart attacks and coronary heart disease, and plant protein correlates at +25 with these conditions?

Speaking of wheat, why doesn’t Campbell also note the astronomical correlations wheat flour has with various diseases: +46 with cervix cancer, +54 with hypertensive heart disease, +47 with stroke, +41 with diseases of the blood and blood-forming organs, and the aforementioned +67 with myocardial infarction and coronary heart disease?

Comments (39) -

  • aqf

    7/10/2010 4:27:14 PM |

    Thanks so much for this. I'm a T2 diabetic controlling my blood sugar with a low carb diet. The only thing in my recent lab work that my GP is unhappy with is an elevated vitamin D level. A few years ago, a friend gave me a copy of The China Study (along with Fuhrman's Eat to Live, because they had "changed [her] life" and she hoped they would change my life as well. Based on my experience and reading about blood sugar regulation and insulin levels, what both had to say just felt wrong to me, over and beyond the simplification one might expect in a mass-audience book. So, I was skeptical about their broader health-related claims, though I wasn't concerned enough to investigate further (and have actually considered the ethics of regifting books that I think make dangerous recommendations). Because of this, it's quite gratifying to find my initial suspicions confirmed by detailed analysis.

  • Anonymous

    7/10/2010 5:26:19 PM |

    When I looked up The China Study on Amazon, I found this statistical analysis of the China Study dataset under the comment section.  This is simply amazing and backs up pretty much everything you've said in your blog.  I hope someone can do an analysis to confirm this analysis.

    http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-the-China-Study-Dataset/forum/Fx1YJPR95OHW08P/TxY4S5EZD8Y2XE/1/ref=cm_cd_dp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&s=books&asin=1932100660&store=books

  • Anna

    7/10/2010 5:32:50 PM |

    Very glad to see this analysis featured here, too.  I groan every time someone recommends The China Study to me as a great authoritative book, so Minger's detailed review was most welcome.

    We must keep in mind however, Minger's review and different conclusions not withstanding, that The China Study is epidemiological data and it can only show association, not causation.   It still doesn't prove in any way that consuming wheat is harmful to health.  Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of wheat anymore and no longer consume it myself or serve it to my family.  But it *is* fuel for the argument that considerably more study is needed before the government and health agencies continue to push wheat consumption on the public as matter of policy.

  • nielso

    7/10/2010 8:32:15 PM |

    Perhaps the most astonishing thing about this analysis is that is is done by an "amateur" without any axes to grind.  It is a telling comment on the dihonesty and/or stupidity of most government and industry funded research.

  • David

    7/11/2010 1:45:27 AM |

    Campbell doesn't deny that processed refined wheat flour (which is what they eat in china) is unhealthy.  He advocates eating whole plant foods.

  • Peter

    7/11/2010 4:06:22 PM |

    Whole wheat, brown rice, beans, and steel-cut oats all seem to raise my blood sugar about the same amount, which is quite a lot depending on how much I eat.  Are they equally problematic?

  • Anonymous

    7/11/2010 5:36:59 PM |

    happy to see denise mingers study featured here. Smile

        wheat asides, milk pasteurised or uht causes a pretty massive immune system flare up for me.

  • Anonymous

    7/11/2010 7:15:10 PM |

    How do we explain the positive correlation between plant protein and cancer?  I'm not ready to give up my kale and chard just yet!

  • kellgy

    7/11/2010 10:18:17 PM |

    Denise's astute analysis gives rise to the importance "digging a little deeper". I have always thought the benefit of eggs was contrary to the "official" line of thought. Little did I know the controversial aspects of wheat until stumbling along Dr. Davis' musings.

  • ramon25

    7/12/2010 3:08:10 AM |

    Sorry to come off topic here but i dont have the program in my  computer to email you. Dr. what do you think of this http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/are-some-people-pushing-their-vitamin-d-levels-too-high.html

  • Anonymous

    7/12/2010 3:45:30 PM |

    ramon25-

    Very interesting study.  I would love to hear a reply as well.

  • Evan

    7/12/2010 6:50:57 PM |

    Here is the T Colin Campbell's response to Denise's debunking of the China Study:

    http://tynan.net/chinastudyresponse

  • sonagi92

    7/13/2010 12:13:36 AM |

    Some commenters have wondered whether the wheat flour assessed in the study was refined wheat.  Chinese today eat mostly refined wheat products, but in the 70s, rural Chinese on collectives might have eaten differently, so I emailed a few Chinese professors of nutrition to ask.  It's morning now in China, and I got one response from Dr. Duo Li of Zhejiang University.  He told me in a brief reply that rural Chinese ate whole wheat products and the refined wheat was rare.

  • 30BaD

    7/13/2010 12:13:02 PM |

    Denise's analysis of The China Study is heavily flawed and therefore invalid.  Debunked by a cancer epidemiologist...

    Here it is...
    http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/a-cancer-epidemiologist

    The proper testing procedure as stated by an expert on analysing stats...
    http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/my-response-to-denises

    Campbells response to Denise..
    http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/debunkingthechinastudycritics/forum/topics/campbells-response-to-denises

  • Peter

    7/13/2010 1:08:44 PM |

    Campbell, in his response, thinks Minger is probably an undercover agent in a larger conspiracy.  The  debunking epidemiologist, in his, points out that correlation and association aren't the same, which will probably not come as news to Minger.  Could be Minger has kicked the hornets' nest.

  • Anonymous

    7/13/2010 8:28:57 PM |

    What I'd like to know is how correlations > 1 and < -1 are being generated, since that's impossible.

  • EMR

    7/14/2010 3:56:15 AM |

    Thanks for sharing the research point of view,yes with the obesity that is hitting America it is necessary to learn that the cause of obesity is eating more of high protein diets and fats over vegetables and fruits.

  • Peter

    7/14/2010 4:50:54 PM |

    Gary Taubes says Campbell's co-worker on the original study, Oxford professor of epidemiology and statistics Richard Peto also thought the data did not support Campbell's hypotheses.

  • Pallav

    7/14/2010 5:51:15 PM |

    Dr. Davis

    The way wheat is consumed  in the west is very different from the way it is consumed in the east(fermenting/sprouting/sourdough etc.).

    This post might be helpful to 300 million americans but mislead 4 billion asians.

    With due respect I'd suggest you consider the above before going all guns blazing against global wheat consumption.

  • Martin Levac

    7/14/2010 6:12:43 PM |

    But Pallav, how can the Chinese be mislead when it's the Chinese's own wheat consumption that is being looked at in The China Study?

    In reality, that study can only generate ideas, it can't test them. So even if it generates the idea that wheat is bad for humans, we must test that idea before it becomes the truth. As far as I know, Dr Davis did test this idea and came with the conclusion that it was the type of wheat that made the difference. Maybe the Chinese ate the bad wheat and that's why it shows up that way?

  • Anonymous

    7/14/2010 6:45:47 PM |

    Anonymous wrote: "What I'd like to know is how correlations > 1 and < -1 are being generated, since that's impossible."

    Denise says right in the post that she gave the numbers in percentage rather than decimals to make it easier to read. I.E. +33 = 33% = .33

  • Pallav

    7/14/2010 7:00:16 PM |

    Martin,
    The way Dr. Davis tested einkorn and wheat currently generally available in usa (http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2010/06/in-search-of-wheat-einkorn-and-blood.html) is probably is what brings real value to this blog.
    The subhead Europe:Sourdough bread http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/06/fermented-grain-recipes-from-around.html is very close to how wheat is consumed in India. This process very likely breaksdown a large part of the offending ingredients such as gluten and phytic acid from a cursory search i did on google scholar.
    I would trust a test on this process by Dr. Davis than on statistics, which as you rightly said generate ideas but need testing.
    However, when Dr Davis goes on to implicate wheat in general for all sorts of diseases like in this blogpost, that applies to americans (the specific way of consuming wheat) and not necessarily to those who process grain differently like in asia.
    That is the point where things get icky and can be misleading for those consuming wheat in asia and reading such posts.
    Perhaps we can all come to a better way of processing grains than cutting them out from the diet altogether?

  • David M Gordon

    7/15/2010 11:23:28 AM |

    "a diet high in animal protein, especially casein"

    Quickly, briefly, because my story is only tangentially related to this post by means of Dr Davis's almost stray remark I quote above...

    I am ~5 weeks into my wheat free diet -- to zero success. I do not measure myself daily in any way, but the obvious one: do I lose weight? Yes, but only ~5lbs, which represents 2% of my total body weight. I should have lost that amount easily within 1 week, if I were proceeding on this diet correctly.

    And then the other stray remarks began to pile up:
    1) The 20 year old girl with celiac disease who dropped wheat AND 20lbs in 2 months. (What about me?!)
    2) The dinner at PF Changs. I ordered the chicken lettuce wraps and skip the rice noodle thingees. Good job, I thought. Then I lingered over the menu, saw the restaurant offers an entire page of gluten free items, and the dish I just ordered was not one of them. I called for the waiter. He explained the sauce...
    3) I drink protein shakes. A lot. As fate would have it, I migrated to casein protein because it broke down more slowly thus causing satiety to last longer. Until I read this post from Dr Davis with his stray remark, did my homework, and discovered to my chagrin that on a cellular level casein protein is so similar to gluten that it might as well be the same. (In essence.)

    Okay, lesson learned. This gluten free, wheat free, grain free, carb free diet is not as easy as it looks at first glance. There is way more to it than skipping bread, and pasta, etc. But now I think I have it. So Sunday is Day 1. Shame I lost those first 4 or 5 weeks, but this time...

  • Peter

    7/15/2010 12:23:12 PM |

    It may be true that wheat is a major cause of heart disease, but I'm not sure the high correspondence between wheat and cvd in this study makes that case.  Richard Peto, the Oxford professor of epidemiology who was part of the original study said what the data showed was that in places where people started adopting more of a western diet their health deteriorated.  I doubt the study spells out which parts of the western diet did the harm, wheat might be a marker for western diet.

  • lassen

    7/15/2010 9:52:47 PM |

    People feel threatened when facts are released that go against the standard, cultural beliefs. We are raised as children to eat animals and animal secretions and so it is understandable why so many people feel threatened when they find out that the food mama gave them is helping to promote heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, autoimmune diseases, digestive disorders, etc. The China Study is the longest, most unbiased studies ever conducted and show statistically significant results, worldwide, that ingesting animal foods create chronic ill heath in humans. I have helped 400 people in the last 4 years to eat a healthy, low fat, plant based diet and they have all rid themselves of the diseases listed above. Now, I have also some Kaiser doctors who, instead of handing pills or surgery, are handing out this book and getting the same results. Thank you Dr. T. Colin Campbell for your 35 year long work. And, I know that you went into this study trying to prove the opposite results!
    When people hear that their upbringing needs to be challenge, they lash out with untruths….just as yound, 23 yr old Mindy has done.

  • lassen

    7/15/2010 9:53:10 PM |

    People feel threatened when facts are released that go against the standard, cultural beliefs. We are raised as children to eat animals and animal secretions and so it is understandable why so many people feel threatened when they find out that the food mama gave them is helping to promote heart disease, cancer, diabetes, obesity, autoimmune diseases, digestive disorders, etc. The China Study is the longest, most unbiased studies ever conducted and show statistically significant results, worldwide, that ingesting animal foods create chronic ill heath in humans. I have helped 400 people in the last 4 years to eat a healthy, low fat, plant based diet and they have all rid themselves of the diseases listed above. Now, I have also some Kaiser doctors who, instead of handing pills or surgery, are handing out this book and getting the same results. Thank you Dr. T. Colin Campbell for your 35 year long work. And, I know that you went into this study trying to prove the opposite results!
    When people hear that their upbringing needs to be challenge, they lash out with untruths….just as yound, 23 yr old Mindy has done.

  • Anne

    7/16/2010 3:22:40 AM |

    To David M Gordon - how much of the lettuce wraps did you eat. PF Changs has nutritional info on the website and says this dish has 4 servings of 5oz. Each serving is 11 carbs so if you ate the whole thing yourself, that was 44 carbs.

    It is very easy to underestimate carb counts. I have found a scale can be very useful. Mine measures carbs and other stuff.

  • David M Gordon

    7/16/2010 3:27:05 PM |

    That little dish is 4 servings?  C'mon! You bet, I bet I ate the whole thing, Anne. Smile

    What is in it that weighs so much? Some iceberg lettuce leaves, chicken, the rice noodle thingees I did without, and the sauce -- which is NOT gluten free, but I changed to a gluten free sauce. I bet that swap changes the calorie count etc. (Hey, I can hope! Smile

    Sure I want to lose weight -- okay, I must lose weight -- but my issue is visceral fat and its resulting potential problems: diabetes and heart issues (inflammation).

    Thank you for your comments.

  • MikeTee

    7/16/2010 5:26:31 PM |

    Instead of driving yourself with all these numbers why not just look for visable proof in REAL people.  I decided to try plant based eating and here is what happened:  (the numbers have actually gotten better since this was published last October)  Why I'm a believer in Dr. Campbell's advice:
    http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/mike_teehan.htm

  • MikeTee

    7/16/2010 5:26:56 PM |

    Instead of driving yourself with all these numbers why not just look for visable proof in REAL people.  I decided to try plant based eating and here is what happened:  (the numbers have actually gotten better since this was published last October)  Why I'm a believer in Dr. Campbell's advice:
    http://www.drmcdougall.com/stars/mike_teehan.htm

  • Martin Levac

    7/17/2010 12:51:43 AM |

    Mike, good for you. See this:
    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/ketones-and-ketosis/low-carb-gaining-a-foothold-with-the-mainstream/

    If Campbell is right that a plant-based diet is best for most humans, why did the low carb group do better than the other two groups (Ornish and LEARN diets) in the intervention study above? Not only did the low carb group do better in weight loss, they did better in all things measured.

  • Anonymous

    7/17/2010 1:45:09 PM |

    Denise Minger wrote:

    "Here we have evidence that areas in China with the highest rates of Western-type diseases also eat the most processed starch and sugar. Maybe not in the grotesque amounts that Americans eat them, but then again, China’s “affluent disease” rates were also lower than America’s"

    This could easily be the headline "Minger accuses Americans of grotesque eating habits"

    Debate is good but be healthy, not paranoid
    Trevor

  • Anonymous

    7/22/2010 5:18:41 PM |

    How can anyone tell anyone else what to eat?  We all NEED plants to survive.  However, some do better with wheat in their diet and some do better with meat in their diet.  It all depends on the person.  I wouldn't go bashing The China Study until you try the whole foods plant-based diet.  Dr. Campbell also stresses that nutrition is NOT about a single nutrient or food group.  It's all about the synergy of everything working together.  I would love to see Denise's analysis of the aflatoxin rat studies.  Everyone needs to take control of their own health.  No one should rely solely on the china study as what they should do.  I personally believe in what the china study is saying, but it might not work for everyone - especially when people are raised to eat animal protein.  I know I have issues with animal protein, but others might be able to tolerate it.  Don't go bashing Dr. Campbell for trying to help people.

  • Bill

    7/22/2010 5:58:09 PM |

    Dr. Bill Misner Ph.D. said:
    The BMI body mass index of rural Chinese is 21.0 supported by a daily calorie intake of over 2600k/cal/day from largely plant foods.
    Americans on the other hand consume largely animal sourced foods of 1989 calories per day resulting in an obese BMI of over 27.0! All one has to do is compare the source of total calories with resulting BMI.

    Eating 2600 calories whole plant foods that contribute to a lean healthy BMI of 21.0 is preferred to eating 1989 calories from largely animal sources resulting in an obese 27.0 BMI.

    Elevated Body Mass Index associated with food category choice are also associated with the typical disease patterns in obese persons.  The China Study shows these numerical correlations precisely.

    I confirm the report that overweight exists more in cultures consuming largely animal source calories than in those whose diet is primarily whole plant foods.

    Interestingly, I have observed all of the above in Americans who change their menu from animal source to whole plant source food protocols.

    Warm regards,

    Bill Misner Ph.D.

  • Alex

    7/22/2010 11:31:11 PM |

    "I would love to see Denise's analysis of the aflatoxin rat studies."

    You can read an excellent analysis HERE. In a nutshell, what those rat studies prove is that complete protein provides better nourishment than incomplete protein. Wheat is naturally deficient in lysine, and when lysine was added to the wheat protein diet, it behaved just like the casein.

    Cancers are very fast growing cells, so of course they're going to grow a whole lot better if they're better nourished. I'd wager that if the rats had been fed a complete vegetable protein blend, e.g. rice and pea protein in the correct ratio, the tumor growth would have matched both the casein and wheat plus lysine.

  • Parag

    7/27/2010 12:07:56 PM |

    Friends,

      You don’t need to believe Dr. Campbell. Just read The China Study, slowly and completely, and figure out the truth for yourself. Facts speak for themselves.

      I, and a few of my acquaintances, tried a whole-foods plant-based diet (coupled with biweekly exposure to sunlight in noon and some physical activity) for a few months (strict compliance), and it is working wonders for us, so we continue to be on it. Some of my friends failed, because they were mostly eating junk (plant-based) foods.

      The China Study book is not just about Dr. Campbell’s work, but more than that it describes the work and results of numerous other research studies, independent and unbiased, that point to the undeniable benefits of a whole-foods plant-based diet.

      Denise has adopted a detailed but very narrow view that is insufficient to relate to the larger context. This approach will only add to confusion and misleading conclusions.

  • Anonymous

    7/29/2010 6:52:54 PM |

    As a physician with the health of your patients at stake, Would you accept conclusions that were not peer reviewed?

  • Jay

    9/3/2010 3:02:01 AM |

    Wonderful post... Very informational and educational as usual!

    Acai Berry Optimum

Loading