Do statin drugs reduce lipoprotein(a)?

Alex had lipoprotein(a), Lp(a), at a high level. With a heart scan score of 541 at age 53, treatment of this pattern would be crucial to his success.

Part of Alex's treatment program was niacin. However, Alex complained about the niacin "flush" to his primary care physician. So, his doctor told him to stop the niacin and replace it with a statin drug (Vytorin in this case).

Is this a satisfactory replacement? Do statin drugs reduce Lp(a)?

No, they do not. In fact, that's how I often meet people who have Lp(a): Their doctor will prescribe a statin drug for a high LDL cholesterol that results in a poor response. The patient will be told that statin drugs don't work for them. In reality, they have Lp(a) concealed in the LDL that makes the LDL resistant to treatment.

Lp(a) responds to a limited number of treatments, like niacin, testosterone, estrogen, and DHEA. But not to statin drugs.

Now, statin drugs may still pose a benefit through LDL reduction. But they do virtually nothing for the Lp(a) itself. Unfortunately, most practicing physicians rarely go any farther than Lipitor, Zocor, Vytorin, and the like.

If your doctor tries to shove a statin drug on you as a treatment for Lp(a), put up a fight. Voice your objections that statins do not reduce Lp(a).

Breakfast cereals and toilet paper



















(Image courtesy of Brandon Blinkenberg and Wikipedia.)


What do breakfast cereals and toilet paper have in common?

You guessed it: They both belong in the toilet.

If you would like some insight into why your friends and neighbors have protruding bellies that conceal any glimpse of their toes, have to conduct that peculiar side-to-side gait that now characterizes many Americans' walking style, and are pre-diabetic or diabetic, look no further than your supermarket cereal aisle.

The Fanatic Cook has some particularly biting comments about this strangely American phenomenon at http://fanaticcook.blogspot.com.

Breakfast cereals range in quality from awful to bad. I don't know of any that fit into the Track Your Plaque program that aims to eliminate the risk of heart disease.

Another lipoprotein hurdle

A number of our Track Your Plaque Members have encountered unexpected difficulty obtaining the 2nd page of their NMR Lipoprofile lipoprotein results when their blood was drawn in a LabCorp laboratory. This is the page that displays the lipoprotein subclasses in graphic format: VLDL, IDL, LDL, and HDL subclasses.

If you are unable to view page 2, you're stuck with the averaged values displayed on page 1. In my view, page 1 is is a drastically "watered down" version that sacrifices some crucial information, particularly if you use NMR lipoprotein analysis in a serial fashion, comparing one study to the next over time.

Why would LabCorp do this? The response I received from a Mr. Theo McCormick, Director of Marketing at LabCorp, was some corporate-speak about . . . Actually, I'm not sure what he was saying. (Members can read the complete Track Your Plaque conversation in the Forum.)

In my view, withholding this information is none of their business. If you or your insurance company paid for the test, then the information is yours to view. This would be like saying that "Sure you paid for the blood test, but we decided that you really won't know what to do with it, so we're keeping it from you."

Please send your objections to the contact info below. Several of the Members who have participated in the Track Your Plaque Forum conversation have already done so. It can only help to add to the growing objections to this silly and unfair practice.

Alternatively, just boycott any laboratory associated with LabCorp. If they are capable of such ridiculous withholding of information, who knows what else these people do?


Contact info:


Theo McCormick, Director of Marketing
Laboratory Corporation of America
1904 Alexander Drive
Research Triangle Park, NC 27709
Phone 919-572-7454 (Direct)
919-361-7700 Main
Fax 919-361-7149
theo_mccormick@labcorp.com

Until we hear about some real action from them, please DO NOT USE ANY LABCORP LABORATORY.

More on aortic valve disease and vitamin D

I hope I'm not getting my hopes up prematurely, but I believe that I've seen it once again: Dramatic reversal of aortic valve disease.

This 64-year old man came to me because of a heart scan score of 212. Jack proved to have small LDL, lipoprotein(a), and pre-diabetes. But there was a wrench in the works: Because of a new murmur, we obtain an echocardiogram that revealed a mildly stiff ("stenotic") aortic valve, one of the heart valves within the heart that can develop abnormal stiffness with time.

You can think of aortic valve disease as something like arthritis--a phenomenon of "wear and tear" that progresses over time, but doesn't just go away. In fact, the usual history is that, once detected, we expect it to get worse over the next few years. The stiff aortic valve eventually causes symptoms like chest pains, breathlessness, lightheadedness, and in very severe cases, passing out. For this reason, when symptoms appear, most cardiologists recommend surgical aortic valve replacement with a mechanical or a bio-prosthetic ("pig") valve.

Now, Jack's first aortic valve area (the parameter we follow by echocardiogram representing the effective area of the valve opening when viewed end on) was 1.6 cm2. A year later: 1.4 cm2. One year later again: 1.1 cm2.

In other words, progressive deterioration and a shrinking valve area. Most people begin to develop symptoms when they drop below 1.0 cm2.

Resigned to a new valve sometime in the next year or two, Jack underwent yet another echocardiogram: Valve area 1.8 cm2.

Is this for real? I had Jack come into the office. Lo and behold, to my shock and amazement, the prominent heart murmur he had all along was now barely audible.

I'm quite excited. However, it remains too early to get carried away. I've now seen this in a handful of people, all with aortic valve disease.

Aortic valve stenosis is generally regarded as a progressive disease that must eventually be corrected with surgery--period. The only other strategy that has proven to be of any benefit is Crestor 40 mg per day, an intolerable dose in my experience.

If the vitamin D effect on aortic valve disease proves consistent in future, even in a percentage of people, then hallelujah! We will be tracking this experience in future.

"How often do you call an ambulance?"

I asked one of the CT technologists at Milwaukee Heart Scan what quesetions are often asked by people undergoing their first CT heart scan.

"That's easy," she said. " 'How often do you call an ambulance?' "

She went on. "People are very scared when they have their heart scan. In fact, some people don't even want to see their heart scan images and don't want to know their score--even after they paid $200 for the scan!"

I think she's right. People often remember the headlines that some heart scan centers have used: "Heart scan saved so and so's life!," when a high score led to a heart catheterization, stents, or bypass surgery. It's the sort of headline that gives people the impression that ambulances pull up to the scan center whenever a score is high.

So, how often is an ambulance called to the scan center? Never. Not once. A CT heart scan score is NEVER an emergency.

Emergencies occur in other places when people can't breathe, or are having pain in their chest, or pass out, emergencies that should not take anyone to a heart scan center. When heart scans are used properly, it is the person without symptoms who undergoes a scan to look for hidden heart disease. This cannot lead to an emergency.

Of course, that doesn't mean that a high score shouldn't prompt quick action in the next few days or weeks, like seeing your doctor to discuss the results, undergoing a stress test, discussing how to stop the score from progressing.

But call an ambulance? Forget about it.

If you are contemplating a scan but are scared that it could lead to a 911 call, don't let that stop you. But, in the event that you go to an unscrupulous center or get bad information, be sure to be armed with the best information possible. One good start would be to take look at our free downloadable book, What does my heart scan show? available for free on the www.cureality.com website.

Oat vs. wheat

Here's a fascinating 2002 study by Dr. Brenda Davy and colleagues at Colorado State University that examined the NMR lipoprotein differences between a diet enriched in oats and one enriched with wheat. (Davy BM, Davy KP, Ho RC et al. High-fiber oat cereal compared with wheat cereal consumption favorably alters LDL-cholesterol subclass and particle numbers in middle-aged and older men. Am J Clin Nutr 2002; 76:351-358.)

36 sedentary, overweight men (average BMI around 30--obese), aged 50-75 years, were given a diet enriched with either oat bran (as oatmeal and oat bran, providing 5.5 grams of beta-glucan) or wheat (as a hot cereal or Frosted Mini-Wheats), with equivalent calories in each group. All underwent baseline NMR lipoprotein analysis.

Three months later, there were no differences in "anthropometrics" like weight, waist size, or BMI (though there was a trend towards larger waistlines in the wheat group). The NMR lipoprotein analysis was repeated.



Comparison of the lipoprotein changes revealed:

--LDL cholesterol: Down 2.5% with oats, up 8.0% with wheat.

--LDL particle number: Down 5% with oats, up 14.2% with wheat.

--Small LDL: Down 17.3% with oats, up 60.4% with wheat.

--Triglycerides: Down 7.6% with oats, up 22.0% with wheat.



The across-the-board differences between the wheat and oat effects were astounding. In particular, note the extraordinary effect on small LDL particles: wheat triggered a 60% increase.

Similar studies yielding similar results have been conducted elsewhere, including Dr. Ronald Krauss' group at University of California-Berkeley.

Now, this was a study conducted under the somewhat artificial circumstances of a study. But imagine this sort of habitual intake continues, not for just three months, but for years. After all, wheat has expanded and metastasized to all three meals, snacks, every day, 7 days a week in most Americans' diet.

What a wonderfully graphic representation of the undesirable effects of wheat products. When you see Mini-Wheats, Shredded Wheat, whole grain bread, whole wheat bread, whole wheat crackers, Raisin Bran, and the thousands of other wheat-containing products that promise health, run the other way. Grab some oat bran on the way out.

Vitamin D and autism

This has nothing to do with coronary plaque reversal, nor directly with the Track Your Plaque program, but I found Dr. John Cannell's discussion about the possible relationship between vitamin D and autism so compelling that I thought I just had to pass it on.

So, below are Dr. Cannell's latest thoughts. He takes some criticisms along with praise. I think we owe him a lot for continuing to doggedly promote the benefits of vitamin D.




Vitamin D Newsletter


August, 2007



Dear Dr. Cannell:

I saw an article from a Toronto newspaper about autism and vitamin D. I am currently searching for a vitamin D specialist in the Washington D.C. area to perform a medical work up on my daughter to look for vitamin D-related disorders. The reason I am in search of a vitamin D specialist is that I believe I have stumbled upon a complex relationship in my daughter involving her foot pain, vitamin D, and her autism.

In April 2006, a few weeks after my 3-year-old profoundly autistic daughter began refusing her daily PediaSure drink, she began having excruciating foot spasms lasting from 10-30 minutes at a time, several times a week. She would throw herself on the floor, curl her toes, slam her heels against the floor, and rub the tops of her feet against the carpet, all while screaming the entire time. These were horrible for her to endure, and horrible for my wife and myself to watch. This went on for a year.

From what I read, the symptom was perhaps like foot spasms associated with carpopedal syndrome or tetany. But her blood work did not support that at all. Calcium level was normal (10.2 mg/dL); 25-Hydroxy-vitamin D low (23.5 ng/ml); 1,25 dihydroxy-vitamin D normal (24.7). Despite some vitamin D deficiency, I was assured by medical professionals that nothing supported a vitamin D cause of these particular spasms, so vitamin D was dismissed. Because her calcium level was normal, they told me she did not have tetany, and vitamin D could not be the cause of the pain.

All medical consultants were stymied. I made another research effort and found a 2003 article on WebMD that stated vitamin D has been found to have some link to basic, unexplained muscle and bone pain. By chance, vitamin D was the next supplement we had at home to begin giving my daughter to treat her autism. So, in April 2007 we began giving my 4 year-old profoundly autistic daughter Vitamin D supplements. Her foot spasms which had plagued her for a year diminished within days and disappeared within three weeks. She has not had a spasm in over two months.

In addition, we noted clear improvements in her autistic condition which appear to be from the vitamin D supplements. Eye contact went from zero to fantastic. Her vocalizations increased markedly (still only babbling; she remains completely nonverbal). She appears even happier than previously (she has always been a somewhat happy child). (Please note that my wife and I have tried many dietary supplements over the past 1.5 years guided by a doctor and dietician who both specialize in autism. We honestly state that this is the only thing that has ever had a positive effect on my daughter. We have seen nothing else work.)

My daughter and vitamin D have a complicated relationship. By all counts, looking at her lab work and general condition, vitamin D should have played no role in those excruciating foot fits. And yet it is apparently exactly what is involved in them. And, my wife and I believe at the same time her autistic condition has improved from the vitamin D. The foot fits and her autism appear linked; it was not just a coincidence that this autistic child has those mysterious foot spasms, and the link appears to be vitamin D.

And so I wonder if this is just the tip of the iceberg, if perhaps there is more to know about my child's relationship with vitamin D and what that might mean for her autism. Does she have a specific vitamin D-related disorder? If so, might direct treatment of it also improve her autism further? These are the questions I would like to pose to a vitamin D specialist who could perform a medical work up on my daughter. Please let me know if you know of anyone in the Northern Virginia/Washington DC area. Also, where is the best place to get vitamin D? Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Paul, Washington, D.C.




Dear Paul:

I know of no such specialist in the Washington area, indeed no vitamin D/autism expert exists in the world. As far as a specific "vitamin D disorder," linking her spasms, autism, and vitamin D, the world's English language medical literature contains no description of such a disorder. From your daughter's case, it sounds as if PediaSure was her only regular source of vitamin D. If so, her spasms began two weeks after stopping the small amount of vitamin D contained in PediaSure. The spasms continued for a year, ending a few days after you started giving her vitamin D again, this time in the form of a supplement. Several weeks after restarting vitamin D, both you and your wife noticed an improvement in her autism. To my knowledge, this "case report" - your daughter's - is the first ever published.

As no medical literature has ever been published on any of this, all you can do is give her enough vitamin D to get her 25-hydroxy-vitamin D, known as 25(OH)D, into high normal ranges and then wait and hope. Vitamin D's extraordinary mass-action pharmacology implies that simply providing more substrate ([25(OH)D] will help children with low enzyme activity produce more activated vitamin D (calcitriol) in their brains. The vitamin D theory of autism is not simply that vitamin D deficiency in gestation or early childhood causes the disorder. Instead, the theory holds that a quantitative or qualitative abnormality exists in the enzyme system that activates vitamin D.

It could as simple as the normal variation in the enzyme, an enzyme whose activity would vary in a normal or Gaussian distribution, much like height. Some people are tall, some are short, most are in the middle. The same may be true of the enzyme that forms activated vitamin D (calcitriol), some children have a lot of enzyme and some only a little; most are in the middle. As the substrate [25(OH)D] the enzyme metabolizes fell over the last 20 years with sun-avoidance, more and more children on the low end of the enzyme curve are effected by marginally low 25(OH)D levels, explaining both its genetic basis and exploding incidence.

At this point, all your daughter needs is a physician willing to periodically measure her 25(OH)D. Then you can safely supplement your daughter with doses higher than the current Upper Limit for children (2,000 IU/day). You did not tell me your daughter's weight but, assuming she weighs about 30 pounds, even without 25(OH)D blood tests, you can safely give her 50 mcg/day which is 2,000 IU per day. In fact, the U.S. government says this dose is safe for children over the age of one. Life Extension Foundation sells 250 of the 1,000 IU capsules for about ten bucks with powdered vitamin D inside. The powder is tasteless and dissolves easily in juice. Bio Tech Pharmacal, of Fayetteville, Arkansas, told me they were going to be making a 1,000 IU capsule. Or you can get 1,000 IU capsules in a pharmacy or at Costco and crush them. A Canadian firm is now making vitamin D liquid, called Ddrops, with 1,000 IU per drop, but their mail order web site is not yet easily accessed. Beware of cod liver oil; do not use it because vitamin A inhibits the actions of activated vitamin D, and due to the potential for low-grade vitamin A toxicity.

Remember, more and more researchers now believe autism is a progressive, inflammatory, disorder. That is, the inflammation probably progressively destroys brain tissue as the child ages. As I said in my recent paper, I think there is a chance that vitamin D may have a treatment effect in young autistic children if given in adequate doses, due to its anti-inflammatory properties, and its ability to upregulate glutathione, the master antioxidant that also chelates (binds) and then helps excrete heavy metals like mercury. Unfortunately, I see no way, even if the vitamin D/autism theory turns out to be true, that vitamin D can regenerate brain tissue. However, if it stops the inflammation, and cell death, the brain could then begin to develop and learn. These are big ifs. However, you have nothing to lose by trying, the worst that will happen is that it will not help and vitamin D will be added to the long list of false-hope treatments.

Actually, there is a worse possibility. Say the parents of a three-year-old autistic child decide today that vitamin D is nonsense, another false hope, and that I'm a quack. They decide not to give vitamin D supplement their autistic child, who is probably - like your child - vitamin D deficient. Then, it turns out five years from now that scientific evidence shows vitamin D does indeed help. By that time, the child will be eight and will have suffered additional, irreparable, brain damage. In my mind, that is more tragic than another false hope.



Dear Dr. Cannell:

After that article appeared in the Toronto paper, I started my four-year-old son on 1,000 IU of vitamin D two weeks ago. So far the only thing I noticed is that after about ten days, he didn't seem so miserable. The thing that has always broken my heart is that look of sadness and suffering on his face. After about two weeks of vitamin D, I noticed he seemed less miserable. I wouldn't say he looks happy now but that look of misery seems to be gone. Will it come back? I'm not sure I can take it if it comes back. What else might happen? Also, last summer we noticed he seemed to get better, but then he got worse in the fall. We never thought about it until we read about vitamin D.

Susan, Toronto, Canada




Dear Susan:

I don't know. I think all parents have had their heart pierced by that look at one time or another. I would advise increasing the dose to 2,000 IU per day, making sure it is cholecalciferol and not ergocalciferol, and having your doctor order a 25(OH)D every two months to see if he needs higher doses. You want to get his blood level up to between 50 ng/ml and 80 ng/ml (In many countries outside of the USA, that would be reported as between 125 and 200 nmol/L.) and keep it there, summer and winter, and that may take more than 2,000 IU/day in the winter. If vitamin D has a treatment effect, it will take many months to see its full effect. As you noted, if the theory is correct, autistic children who spend time outdoors in the summer should show some seasonal improvements - if they don't wear sunblock and they expose enough of their skin to generate significant amounts of vitamin D.



Dear Dr. Cannell:

I resent you calling autism a tragedy. My son is not a tragedy and I'm glad he was born and is in our lives. He is our joy. Autism is not a tragedy.

Emma, London, England.





Dear Emma:

I'm glad he is your joy and I believe you. I'm new to the autism field and was not aware how much thought and speech control exists in the discussion of the disease. Nevertheless, I have a few politically incorrect questions. If autism is a joy, I assume you would like other parents to have an autistic child? If autism is such a joy, why is there a huge industry forming to prevent and treat it? At the risk of sounding insensitive - apparently one of the most serious charges leveled in the autism debate - autism is a tragedy. As I pointed out in my paper, research shows that having an autistic child, puts the family under more emotional stress than having a child with a fatal illness.



Dear Dr. Cannell:

Who are you to write an article on autism? You didn't even publish it in a medical journal. You are not with a university. You have not published very much. You have no expertise on autism. No autism experts support your theory. There is no evidence to support the theory. Shouldn't you leave this to experts before you give parents more false hopes?

Mary, Trenton, New Jersey.




Dear Mary:

You are right, I am a nobody; just ask my ex-wife. In the Toronto Globe, I explained why I have not yet submitted the paper. As far as giving false hopes, I've thought about that charge. Right now, regardless of what advocacy groups say, autism is rather hopeless. That is, no treatment, including vitamin D, has been shown to materially affect the clinical course of autism. As a psychiatrist, my observation is that people would rather live with a false hope than with no hope.

Furthermore, if autistic children began taking vitamin D, the worse that can happen is that a period of false hope will followed by dashed hopes and then parents will be back to hopelessness. In the meantime, they will have made their child vitamin D sufficient. Vitamin D deficiency is a serious problem in childhood.
Postgrad Med J. 2007 Apr;83(978):230-5.

The Telegraph, Why is Vitamin D So Vital?

As far as the theory having no support from experts, Dr. Richard Mills, research director of the National Autistic Society in England, was quoted in the Telegraph article on the autism/vitamin D theory: "There has been speculation in the past about autism being more common in high-latitude countries that get less sunlight and a tie-up with rickets has been suggested - observations which support the theory."

Finally, you said there is no evidence to support the theory. I assume you meant there is no proof. The first statement is absolutely false, the second absolutely true. As I detailed in my paper, there is a lot of evidence to support the theory. In fact, if anyone can come up with an autism fact, that the theory cannot explain, I'd like to know about it. Even the announcement of a link between television viewing and autism supports the theory. Furthermore, the TV/autism link is actually evidence of a treatment effect. That is, if autistic children who play outside in the sunshine more - watching less TV - have less severe illness, it may be due to the Sun-God, who bestows her precious gift of calcitriol into the brains of children playing outside in her sunlight but not into the brains of children watching TV inside in the darkness.
Natl Bur Econ Res Bull Aging Health. 2007 Winter;(18):2-3.

As far as proof the theory is true, there is, of course, none. In medicine, proof means randomized controlled human trials, the gold standard for proof. However, proof is the last step, not the first. First comes evidence, then comes a theory, then comes researchers disproving those theories. It works that way. Sometimes we never get to the last step, proof. For example, please point me to a single randomized controlled human trial proving cigarette smoking is dangerous? Instead, the convincing evidence of smoking's dangerousness lies in epidemiological studies, not randomized controlled trials. Proof, or disproof, of the autism vitamin D theory will take years, years during which young autistic brains will continue to suffer irreparable damage. Perhaps vitamin D' powerful anti-inflammatory actions will help prevent that damage, perhaps not.

It's something of a Pascal's wager, betting on vitamin D instead of the existence of God, risking your child's brain instead of eternal damnation. "If you believe vitamin D helps autism and turn out to be incorrect, you have lost nothing -- but if you don't believe in vitamin D and turn out to be incorrect, your child will suffer irreparable brain damage."

John Cannell, MD
The Vitamin D Council
9100 San Gregorio Road
Atascadero, CA 93422

This is a periodic newsletter from the Vitamin D Council, a non-profit trying to end the epidemic of vitamin D deficiency. If you don't want to get the newsletter, please hit reply and let us know. This newsletter is not copyrighted. Please reproduce it and post it on Internet sites. Remember, we are a non-profit and rely on donations to publish our newsletter and maintain our website.

Michael Pollan Podcast

I just found this great podcast of an April, 2006 National Public Radio (NPR) interview with Omnivore's Dilemma author, Michael Pollan:

Author Michael Pollan: 'The Omnivore's Dilemma'

available at http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5342514

The Science Friday segment is a great encapsulation of all the fascinating spins this wonderfully insightful author has on human eating habits and the developing distortions of food choices, much magnified by the food manufacturing industry.

One of my favorite comments from Pollan: "The USDA should be called "The Department of Corn," referring to the ubiquitous dissemination of corn products into livestock and human foods that has increasingly led to the enormous health problems we're all facing in 2007.

Are you addicted to fructose?

Try a little experiment:

Side by side, try a yogurt made with fructose or high fructose corn syrup as one of the first ingredients on the label along with a yogurt made without fructose.

Yoplait and Dannon brands, for instance, fit the bill for fructose. Several brands do not use fructose products. Many of these are the unflavored or unsweetened versions. You may therefore have to add some blueberries, strawberries, or some other fruit for some flavor. ( I doubt that you would add high fructose corn syrup.) Add nuts, seeds, flaxseed, or oat bran to either.

Many people who do this will notice a peculiar effect: The fructose or high fructose corn syrup containing product is, to most, delicious. It also triggers a desire for more. You can't have just one--you've got to have another, or you've got to eat something else.

The non-fructose containing product is more likely to generate satiety, a feeling that you've had enough.

If you experience this effect, the solution is simple: avoid fructose and high fructose corn syrup. I believe that the most worrisome health effect of fructose is this hunger-increasing aspect, difficult to document, perhaps impossible to measure, but a great boon to the food industry who practice an "eat more" philosophy to increase revenues year after year.

Perhaps you will also see weight drop (since you will be more satisfied), see triglycerides drop (since fructose raises triglycerides), and maybe obtain all the downstream benefits of reduced triglycerides (higher HDL, less small LDL, less VLDL, more rapid clearance of post-prandial lipoproteins).

Most people who follow this idea gain better control over appetite, lose weight, and do better in health, including in their Track Your Plaque program.

Chicken Little

Clinical studies can be designed in a number of ways. The ease and cost of these studies differ dramatically, as does the confidence of the findings.

The most confident way to design a clinical study is to tell neither the participants nor the investigator(s) what treatment is being offered, then to administer treatment or placebo. Neither the people doing the research nor the participants know what they are receiving. Of course, there needs to be some way to find out what was given at the end of the study in order to analyze the outcome.

This is called a “double-blind, placebo-controlled” clinical study. While not perfect since it tends to examine a treatment phenomenon in isolation (e.g., the effects of a single drug in a select group of people), it is the best sort of study design that is most likely to yield confident results, both negative and positive. This sort of design is followed, for instance, for most prescription drugs.

There are pitfalls in such studies, of course, and some have made headlines lately. For instance, beyond tending to examine single conditions in a select group of participants, a double-blind, placebo-controlled study can also fail to uncover rare effects. If a study contains 5000 participants, for instance, but a rare complication develops in 1 person out of 20,000, then it’s unlikely such an ill-effect will be observed until larger numbers of people are exposed to the agent.

Another pitfall (though not so much of study design, but of human greed) is that study outcomes that are not favorable can be suppressed by simply failing to publish the results. This has undoubtedly happened numerous times over the years. For this reason, a registry has been created for all human clinical trials as a means to enforce publication of outcomes, both favorable and unfavorable.

Despite its weaknesses, the double-blind, placebo-controlled study design remains the most confident way to show whether or not some treatment does indeed yield some effect. It is less prone to bias from either the participant or the investigator. Human nature being what it is, we tend to influence results just to suit our particular agenda or interests. An investigator who knows what you are given, drug or placebo, but owns lots of stock in the company, or is hoping for special favors from the pharmaceutical company sponsor, for instance, is likely to perceive events in a light favorable to the outcome of the study.

Now, most studies are not double-blind, placebo-controlled studies. These are notoriously difficult studies to engineer; raise lots of ethical questions (can you not treat a person with an aggressive cancer, for instance, and administer a placebo?); often require substantial numbers of participants (thousands), many of whom may insist on payment for devoting their time, bodies, and perhaps even encountering some risk; and are tremendously expensive, costing many tens of millions of dollars.

For this reason, many other study designs are often followed. They are cheaper, quicker, may not even require the active knowledge or participation of the group being studied. That’s not to say that the participants are being tricked. It may simply be something like trying to determine if there are more heart attacks in people who live in cities compared to rural areas by comparing death rates from heart attack from public records and population demographic data. Or, a nutritional study could be performed by asking people how many eggs they eat each week and then contacting them every month for 5 years to see if they’ve had a heart attack or other heart event. No treatment is introduced, no danger is added to a person’s established habits. Many epidemiologic studies are performed this way.

The problem is that these other sorts of study designs, because they generate less confident results, are not generally regarded as proof of anything. They can only suggest the possibility of an association, an hypothesis. For real proof to occur, a double-blind, placebo-controlled may need to follow. Alternatively, if an association suggested by a study of lesser design might, by reasons of a very powerful effect, be sufficient. But this is rare. Thalidomide and catastrophic birth defects are an example of an association between a drug and fetal limb malformation that was so clear-cut that no further investigation was required to establish a causative association. Of course, no one in their right mind would even suggest a blinded study.

Where am I going with this tedious rambling? Lately, the media has been making a big to-do about several studies, none of which are double-blind, placebo-controlled, but were cross-sectional sorts of observations, the sorts of studies which can only suggest an effect. This happened with Dr. Steve Nissen’s study of Avandia (rosiglitazone) for pre-diabetes and risk for heart attack and the recent study suggesting that cancer incidence is increased when LDL cholesterol is low. Both were observations that suggested such associations.

Now, those of you following the Heart Scan Blog or the www.cureality.com website know that we do not defend drug companies nor their drugs. In fact, we’ve openly and repeatedly criticized the drug industry for many of its practices. Drugs are, in my opinion, miserably overused and abused.

But, as always, I am in the pursuit of truth. Neither of these studies, in my view, justified the sort of media attention they received. They are hypothesis-generating efforts—that’s it. You might argue that the questions raised are so crucial that any incremental risk of a drug is simply not worth it.

Despite the over-reaction to these studies, good will come of the fuss. I do believe that heightened scrutiny of the drug industry will result. Many people will seek to avoid prescription drugs and opt for healthy changes in lifestyle, thus reducing exposure to costs and side-effects.

But beware of the media, acting as our Chicken Little, reporting on studies that prove nothing but only raise questions.
The ultimate insurance company cost savings

The ultimate insurance company cost savings

I had a very disturbing conversation with a physician who is employed by an insurance company last week.

I admitted a patient in the hospital for very clear-cut reasons. She is one of my few non-compliant patients, doing none of the strategies I advocate--no fish oil, no vitamin D, no correction of her substantial lipoprotein abnormalities, not even medication. Much of this was because of difficult finances, some of it is because she is from the generation (she is in her late 70s) that tends to ignore preventive health, some of it is because she is a kind of happy-go-lucky personality. So her disease has been progressive and, now, life-threatening, including an abdominal aneurysm near-bursting in size (well above the 5.5 cm cutoff). The patient is also a sweet, cuddly grandmother. I have a hard time bullying nice little old ladies.

While she was in the hospital, the social worker told me that her case was being reviewed by her insurer and would likely be denied. Their medical officer wanted to speak to me.

So the medical officer called me and started asking pointed questions. "Why did you do that test? You know that she's not been compliant. Are you sure you want to do that? I don't think that's a good idea." In other words, this was not just a review of the case. This was an opportunity for the insurance company to intervene in the actual care of the patient.

Then the kicker: "Have you considered not doing anything and . . . just letting nature take its course?"

At first, I was stunned. "You mean let the patient die?"

Expressed in such blatant terms, while he was trying to be diplomatic, made him back down. "Well, uh, no, but she is a high-risk patient."

Anyway, this was the first instance I've encountered in which the insurance company is not just in the business of reviewing a case, but actually trying to intervene during the hospital stay, to the point of making the ultimate healthcare cost savings: Letting the patient die.

Unfortunately, never having had an experience like this before, I did not think to record the conversation or take notes. I am wondering if this is an issue to be taken up by the Insurance Board . . . or is this a taste of things to come as the health insurers fall under increasing pressure with the legislative changes underway?

Comments (48) -

  • Apra -- The Shaman

    9/29/2010 5:34:45 PM |

    There's no reason to blame this on health care legislation yet, it hasn't taken effect yet. It sounds like it is the usual coldhearted, profiteering insurance companies have engaged in.

  • Anonymous

    9/29/2010 5:50:58 PM |

    Who needs Death Panels -- the insurance industry has been doing this stuff for years and will continue under Obamacare.

  • Jon

    9/29/2010 5:53:16 PM |

    Wow. I'm stunned. I cannot believe they basically would come in to the hospital and ask you to let her die so they can save money...

    -Goes to show how out of wack peoples' values have become these days.

  • aek

    9/29/2010 6:02:09 PM |

    As stunning as that was, it does bring up an interesting point:  if this patient is essentially refusing interventions aimed at reversal/control of disease, is it appropriate to have an end of life discussion with her?  Is she opting for palliative care or hospice type care?  What are her goals?  Pain management? ADL function?  Some quality of life issue?

    I don't think that "bullying", scare tactics, coercive tactics, disease curative advocacy tactics  etc. are useful here.

    Having a frank discussion about her health aims and her knowledge in order to partner in achieving her health/quality of life goals may actually be where the utility will be.

    Great post.  Thanks for writing this.

  • Dawn

    9/29/2010 6:27:23 PM |

    I think the whole point of this episode is that Obamacare has nothing to do with "death panels" and that insurance companies have already been intervening (read: rationing) care for years.

  • David Csonka

    9/29/2010 7:19:44 PM |

    This is the kind of situation that got so many people riled up, when the topic of "death panels" arose during the health care reform debates.

  • Elenor

    9/29/2010 7:43:34 PM |

    No one is willing to point this out  -- but if she is NOT willing to do anything to try to ameliorate her health, then perhaps "society" should not have to pay for her hospitalization.  

    People are all up in arms about "oooohhh. Death panels!!" There is no human life that does not end in death. It is a REASONABLE economic consideration whether "society" (that is, you and I) owe anyone 'free' health care when they refuse to follow their medical practitioner's advice. (Yes, that means I pay for my own medical care, because I'm not insured, and I don't always agree with my doctor's advice.)  

    No one is "owed" full medical coverage when they're not willing to participate in their own health.  And society (you and I) CANNOT afford to pay for everyone's health care. Period. It's not possible.  There is not that much money on the planet!  

    I dislike the insurance companies -- but their attempt to protect their shareholders' money is a REASONSABLE financial decision based on rational grounds. Sorry that granny isn't able or willing to take care of herself, but we CANNOT afford to pay for everything for everyone.

  • Anonymous

    9/29/2010 8:05:20 PM |

    This is nothing new.  Insurance companies exist to make money.  They're neither good nor evil.  They're not interested in patient care.  They're interested in taking in more money than they give back out.

    Not sure what else you'd expect.

  • Tax Sale Property Jim

    9/29/2010 8:21:52 PM |

    Wow. Reading this chilled my blood to the point that I wondered for a split second if you made it up (nothing personal, was just that shocked).

    Shocking, and appalling.

  • Anonymous

    9/29/2010 8:26:58 PM |

    Given the complexity of the health care legislation, is it really possible to say that it will make the situation with insurers better or worse?  Some provisions aimed at limiting cost could make the situation worse, but the standardization of plans that the exchanges are likely to cause could make the situation better.  From my point of view, it seems to hard to answer without going into the details, and I have yet to see a detailed analysis.  Does anyone know of one?

    Even then, the full effects of the legislation is likely to be unpredictable due to the hybrid nature of our health care.  (See "The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care" for a description of various health care systems and how ours compare).

  • Chuck

    9/29/2010 8:27:03 PM |

    I tend to agree that if she refuses to make attempts to improve her health that a real "end of life" discussion is warranted.  maybe that was had and that what precipitated the test requests.

  • Barkeater

    9/29/2010 8:31:36 PM |

    If she has insurance, it is not "society" that should determine her care, it is her individual contractual right.  The insurance company is stuck with her and needs to pay for her care in accordance with the contract.  Trying to persuade her doctor not to prescribe the care he ought to is dealing off of the bottom of the deck.  

    She should be compliant, of course, but I am certain she cannot be denied further care under the policy just because she made some poor choices in the past.

    I think the reason "death panels" is such a scary concept (and insurance companies rationing care too) is that as individuals we want the right to the best care, and we thought we were getting it and paying for it through insurance.  Sadly, the entire system (as is and as will be) is skewed toward top-down decision-making, rather than patient empowerment (and responsibility).

    If her regular doctor were someone other than Dr. Davis, the care she might have gotten might not have done any good anyway.  God sent her a rowboat as the flood waters lapped at her feet, and she did not get in.

  • Anonymous

    9/29/2010 9:57:30 PM |

    As long as health insurance is a "for profit" business, this situation is bound to happen. Why should this surprise anyone ? Like any for profit business, they are in it for the money. It unfortunately for us, the paying public, involves our lives. I don't see anything changing unless the insurance industry is changed over to a non-profit one. Not likely to happen in the US.

  • Ellen

    9/29/2010 10:06:29 PM |

    ". . or is this a taste of things to come as the health insurers fall under increasing pressure with the legislative changes underway?"


    Yes.

  • TJ

    9/29/2010 10:15:48 PM |

    >>>  No one is willing to point this out -- but if she is NOT willing to do anything to try to ameliorate her health, then perhaps "society" should not have to pay for her hospitalization

    -----

    Well the irony here is that the prescription of many docs for being "compliant" (ie. eating whole grains and takings statins etc) actually makes their health WORSE and costs society more money in the end (all the while lining the pockets of big pharma.)

    I agree in principle with your point about self-responsibility, but we have to be careful because few docs are as enlightened on this topic as Dr Davis are.

  • scall0way

    9/29/2010 10:41:33 PM |

    Hmm, well in many ways I *also* reuse to follow my medical practitioner's advice - by following a low carb diet, and refusing to take statins. So does that make me also "non-compliant" and ready for the death squad?

  • Anonymous

    9/30/2010 1:37:28 AM |

    I'm not sure how insurance works for the elderly, but remember for my father he didn't have a choice.  Once he reached the age of 65 he had to join the government plan.   I remember, he wasn't too happy about it.  Was the insurance firm for your patient Medicare?  Is there other insurance?  Scary tale regardless.

  • Anonymous

    9/30/2010 1:44:02 AM |

    Doesn't want to follow advice, change her diet, but likes to visit doctors a lot. Sounds like Elderly Munchausen syndrome.

  • rdyck

    9/30/2010 1:49:23 AM |

    No one has a right to health care and no one has a right to force care on another that refuses such care. Whether or not her decisions are "right" as judged by others is immaterial.

  • Anonymous

    9/30/2010 4:52:40 AM |

    Doesn't this woman have Medicare (i.e., govt health insurance for the elderly)?  

    Also, the health care law HAS taken effect as companies and insurance companies seek to adjust to its many diktats.  See today's news that McDonald's is thinking of dropping its (admittedly paltry) coverage and the "reform" has added much extra cost to many company bottom lines, not to mention additional tax reporting obligations.  Think what you will about the current system, but it will get worse with this reform.  Long lines, fewer specialists, no cutting-edge testing like the doctor advocates.  I know; I have lived in Canada.

  • Medical Insurance

    9/30/2010 5:31:35 AM |

    Group health insurance policies are always beneficial and the premiums for health insurance quotations are lowest when opted for a group health insurance policy, since it’s important to cover the health first.

  • Jack M.

    9/30/2010 9:21:31 AM |

    Thanks for being so transparent!  Do the drug companies offer you money to write prescriptions?  Have you heard about that from your colleagues?

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/30/2010 4:03:28 PM |

    Although I was frustrated by this (very nice) woman's inability or unwillingness to follow a preventive effort, my primary concern here is the aggressive effort to intervene by the insurance doctor.

    This is not the only instance of the clamp-down they have been exerting; we've been seeing it in many others ways. For instance, for most of the routine tests we run, including lab work, we have to get the okay of the insurer. Sounds fine, except my staff spends hours every day on the phone telling the insurance person things like "Their last HDL was 67," or nonsense that has nothing to do with justification of testing.

  • Anonymous

    9/30/2010 8:15:09 PM |

    Some of the comments here emphasize the problem of looking at health care of an individual as some sort of collective enterprise where society or some other collective claiming an interest should have its say in life or death decisions of the individual, rather than the individual, with the counsel of family and physician, retaining sole autonomy. For those of you advocating the right of the "collective," however viewed, to cast its vote on your treatment consider this: 1) by any objective standard, none of you took perfect care of your health, either, (glass houses & stones) 2) by even being on this website, you advertise your dissent from many prevailing opinions of "correct" medicine; maybe the collective would conclude that your suspect medical practices ought not to be rewarded with treatment in a crunch 3) e.g., maybe because you refused that statin & now you've had a CVA, nature ought to be allowed to take its course since you refused "best practice." I could say a lot more, but maybe you collectivists can figure it out from here.

  • Anonymous

    10/1/2010 10:31:32 AM |

    Welcome to "Obama Care"....

  • eh

    10/1/2010 4:11:26 PM |

    Happens all the time, in one way or another. My mother was sent home from the hospital in hospice care with morphine prescribed for "shortness of breath" (she had lung cancer). Clearly they didn't think there was anything more they could (or TBH, probably wanted -- she was 84) to do for her, but I guess they couldn't quite conscience doing nothing for someone experiencing difficulty breathing.

  • Anonymous

    10/1/2010 6:40:38 PM |

    Adopting unconventional approaches to health do not imply unconventional political or philosophical views. Please take these sorts of debates elsewhere.

  • Anonymous

    10/1/2010 11:43:22 PM |

    Another Anonymous said:

    "welcome to Obamacare"

    This will be the outcry going forward even though it is patently false.

    I say welcome to the culture of greed.


    2007 Total CEO Compensation

    Aetna - Ronald A. Williams: $23,045,834

    Cigna - H. Edward Hanway: $25,839,777

    Coventry - Dale B. Wolf: $14,869,823

    Health Net - Jay M. Gellert: $3,686,230

    Humana - Michael McCallister: $10,312,557

    U.Health - Grp Stephen J. Hemsley: $13,164,529

    WellPoint - Angela Braly (2007): $9,094,271

    These people do not earn this money.  There is nothing about them that is that special or irreplaceable.
    A whole lot of healthcare could have been provided in place of these bloated compensation packages.

    Let's look at H. Edward Hanway at Cigna as the poster child of egregiousness.  He makes just under a half million dollars EVERY WEEK!!!!  Now a half million dollars would buy a nice house (since it's not buying healthcare).  Something that many people would like to be able to afford on a 15 or 30 year mortgage.  But not H. Edward Hanway, he can pay cash for his house and buy himself another one every week if he wants.  That granny has to die early so H. Edward Hanway can have a new house every week is a small price to pay don't you think?

    So Anonymous who blames this on Obamacare, do us a favor and stay home on election day.  We can't afford YOU!  Sheesh

  • Anonymous

    10/2/2010 12:59:44 AM |

    Welcome to a taste of the coming Obama-care health era. This case is an example of something that no one will even raises an eyebrow about. Ahhhhhhh, the people's paradise. The joys of socialism, right here in America.

    And Apra, you're mistaken about the legislation not haven taken effect yet.

  • Anonymous

    10/2/2010 11:40:53 AM |

    Socialism? What a laugh. The "Affordable Care Act" is corporate welfare in the same way Medicare Part D was corporate welfare. Big Pharma got theirs, and now the insurance industry will get theirs. (like they were suffering before)

    And let's not forget Big Agra who gets to design the food pyramid with all those "heart healthy grains" at the top.I'm really surprised the corn industry couldn't buy a place for HFCS in the corporate pyramid.

    It's not socialism, it's an oligarchy, get used to it.

  • Anonymous

    10/2/2010 2:16:18 PM |

    Why am I not surprized?  If more doctors spoke out when insurance companies do this kind of thing, I'd be willing to bet that the insurance companies would soon stop doing it.

  • helene edwards

    10/2/2010 10:59:32 PM |

    Why don't you draft up a declaration in highly detailed form, and submit it to your state's Trial Lawyers' Association for future use?  The hardest thing to do in law is prove that an insurer has a "pattern" of acting badly.  You  could provide the starting point.

  • Cheryl

    10/3/2010 2:08:09 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    Aren't you "intervening" in the care of this patient?  Aren't you taking her (or her insurance company's money) for treatment that she rejects?

    Maybe this is a patient you should decline to treat. Sounds like if she is a lovable old lady there is a doctor who will assist her in the way she wants, clearing your schedule to accept patients who want your style of care.

    Sounds harsh, but why try to push someone into something they don't want?  She's heard you, and doesn't want to listen. she wants to live her life they way she wants.  that "living" includes her eventual death.

    That's the way it goes birth-life-death. We don't typically choose our birth, and we're sometimes asleep during our life and death.  Still though, choice is ours.

  • Principal Quattrano

    10/3/2010 4:20:32 AM |

    The real issue is that a great many Americans cling desperately to absolutely horrible diets. I'm not even talking about that vast gray area of controversy, but of those who only occasionally eat fruit or vegetables and consume mostly wheat or corn, truly a third world diet.

    How does one motivate someone who clings desperately (in a quasi-religious cultish fashion) to something that not only may hurt them in the distant future, but actually does hurt them right now? Many celiacs continue to eat wheat even though they experience immediate symptoms.

    It is as though Americans have confused the diet they may need to continue living healthy lives with an imposition on their freedom of expression.

  • Anonymous

    10/3/2010 4:56:21 AM |

    happens all the time in Neurosurgery my friend.  Welcome to our world.

  • Anonymous

    10/3/2010 1:08:05 PM |

    I'm Canadian. Like most of Europe, we have national health care. If you are ill, you get care. It is only primary care.  Each Province has its own flavor so in some cases drugs are covered across the board and in other cases, like Ontario, it is only in hospital and if you don't have a drug plan and need expensive drugs....you are no better off than in the US. Anyone with financial means can,and does, go out of country if they want.  The government will pay for private care out-of country if they have emergency needs where a patient is at risk.

    Friends of mine from Boston visited recently (I lived there for 5 years) and I was surprised to hear the question of economic value for treatment of an at-risk patient come up.

    Insurance companies get no say in who gets health care, it is Universal and is part of who we are as a nation.  

    Having a profit layer in the middle does not sound like a good place to be. Sure people are covered, but the insurance company forced to take on "bad risk" will look to minimize the loss potential.

    Trev

  • John Townsend

    10/3/2010 3:40:23 PM |

    Noting here a number of comments about the pushing of “heart healthy grains" on an unwitting public, I was intrigued this morning by the host of the Rachael Ray show (CBS)devoting a whole program on this very topic. While demoEdit  John Townsend said...nstrating various grain-based dishes, Rachael quite unabashedly pronounces that grains in the diet are very healthy, reducing the risk of heart disease by 25%, followed by a gleeful applause endorsement by the TV audience.
    She provided no backup source, nor an explanation of how this is so. This sort of irresponsible
    “pushing” of what is clearly a doubtful contention by celebrities of this ilk on mainstream media is appallingly reprehensible.

  • John Townsend

    10/3/2010 3:44:19 PM |

    Noting here a number of comments about the pushing of “heart healthy grains" on an unwitting public, I was intrigued this morning by the host of the Rachael Ray show (CBS)devoting a whole program on this very topic. While demonstrating various grain-based dishes, Rachael quite unabashedly pronounces that grains in the diet are very healthy, reducing the risk of heart disease by 25%, followed by a gleeful applause endorsement by the TV audience.
    She provided no backup source, nor an explanation of how this is so. This sort of irresponsible
    “pushing” of what is clearly a doubtful contention by celebrities of this ilk on mainstream media is appallingly reprehensible.

  • Anne

    10/4/2010 11:40:32 AM |

    Thankgoodness I don't live in the USA - that's all I can say !

  • f0xpawz

    10/7/2010 4:35:03 PM |

    ". . or is this a taste of things to come as the health insurers fall under increasing pressure with the legislative changes underway?"

    You nailed it.

    The redeeming feature of the free market is when one company is being a jerk, customers can take their business elsewhere. If they are big enough jerks they get sued and have to change their policies or at least get bad publicity.

    When the government is in charge of insurance, there is no elsewhere, they can arrest you for not paying your permium, they cannot be sued, and no amount of bad publicity will make them clean up their act.

  • Anonymous

    10/8/2010 2:27:48 PM |

    It’s annoying how some people such as f0xpawz use an otherwise importantly informative
    web-site and discussion board as a bully pulpit for their unlettered views on subjects entirely
    irrelevant to what the site is all about. This kind of behavior is straight up unseemly and offensive.

  • Anonymous

    10/25/2010 5:38:05 AM |

    I this happened to my mother last year.  

    The hospital and then nursing home staff were clearly driving her into the ground with bad food and defective medicines.  The doctor was a social climbing medical deity, the head nurse a borderline psychotic.  

    I was able to find more knowledgeable, broad minded doctors, cut the meds, improved the food, aded supplements over the nursing home's many obstructions, and we eventually escaped without mortality.  Mom got better, after eliminating a number of drugs and their horrid side effects (including nausea and vomiting, Parkinsonism).

    All the nursing homes in the locale exhibited the (sub)standard American diet syndrome.  I have since come to view US nursing homes as death traps.

    Also my wife's cousin died in UK last year under NHS cost control.  Her sister, an American MD, on the phone, recognized her sister had a systemic infection that needed IV antibiotic, stat.  NHS guidelines delayed treatment.  Dead in 48 hrs.

  • Anonymous

    10/25/2010 5:38:29 AM |

    I this happened to my mother last year.  

    The hospital and then nursing home staff were clearly driving her into the ground with bad food and defective medicines.  The doctor was a social climbing medical deity, the head nurse a borderline psychotic.  

    I was able to find more knowledgeable, broad minded doctors, cut the meds, improved the food, aded supplements over the nursing home's many obstructions, and we eventually escaped without mortality.  Mom got better, after eliminating a number of drugs and their horrid side effects (including nausea and vomiting, Parkinsonism).

    All the nursing homes in the locale exhibited the (sub)standard American diet syndrome.  I have since come to view US nursing homes as death traps.

    Also my wife's cousin died in UK last year under NHS cost control.  Her sister, an American MD, on the phone, recognized her sister had a systemic infection that needed IV antibiotic, stat.  NHS guidelines delayed treatment.  Dead in 48 hrs.

  • ash17

    11/9/2010 4:01:24 PM |

    Well, it’s amazing. The miracle has been done. Hat’s off. Well done, as we know that “hard work always pays off”, after a long struggle with sincere effort it’s done.
    -----------
    marqgibs
    Savings

  • zeeshan ali

    12/3/2010 8:31:36 AM |

    I found your blog very informative about insurance policies and plans.

  • Dana Seilhan

    12/11/2010 9:50:02 AM |

    I get angry every time I hear a don't-wanna-be-a-socialist RED-stater griping and complaining about "Obamacare" and how they don't want to be forced to pay for other people's bad health choices.  Then they bleat about death panels.  Have these kind souls ever BEEN without insurance?  Boy, I sure have.  Nothing says "death panel" like "sorry, we require payment up front and by the way, you don't qualify for Medicaid."

    Paying for someone's dumb decision to leave their front door unlocked at night when they suffer a burglary and have to call the cops?  No problem.  Paying for someone's dumb decision when they fall asleep in bed with a lit cigarette and need the fire department?  No problem.  What's the difference then?

    I do not understand and I will never understand.  Yet they go on about "death panels" and "un-American" and so on and so forth.  What, are fat people and chronically ill people not alive or something?  Or not American?

  • commercial insurance quote

    1/27/2011 2:31:50 PM |

    I am really shocked to read the whole post. In my opinion the real cause is the increasing number of fraud that people are doing by showing false information so that they will get the claim. This just results into the poor people who are true, suffers a lot.

  • Anonymous

    3/10/2011 1:23:55 AM |

    To: Dana Seilhan

    VERY WELL said!

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