I would like to know if this works with iced green tea as well. I used a method of one meal per day to loose 50+ pounds. I found it pretty easy, all in all, but have regained about 20 now and need to get back on it. I think I will give iced green tea a try! (I'm not crazy about hot green tea, but like it fine iced)

I use tea as a method of extending eating intervals.  It works well.  I'm sure a lot of it has to do with the "upper" effect.  Ie.  uppers reduce appetite as a result of blocked sensory.

I find fasting and sensory blocking to be counter-productive.

May be other effects but caffeine and it's cousin theobromine in the tea are pretty reliable appetite suppressants.  But isn't getting jacked up (even if only a little) a bit counter productive to some of the potential benefits of fasting?  The idea is to rest your physiology while catabolism is in full swing. Activating the sympathetic nervous system so you don't have to experience the sensations you don't like during the early stages of fasting does not seem to me to really promote that.

Yes, green tea reduces my hunger; I just use Tetley in the bag. Some of the greens do not have a satiating effect on me, nor do any of the black teas. Coffee increases hunger for me. Bullion cubes or OXO packets also help. I make a 1.5 l thermos, and suck on that until its done. Some days 3 or 4 of them in a day. I think I have more hunger than most people, but I am down 55 kgs, 2 to 4 years ago and have been down for 2 years.

The other thing that helps me is chew-able Vitamin C, a couple of 500s any time I feel hungry. It seems to raise BG, possible due to BG sparing, as it is required for far oxidation, or inside cell far transport, depending on who is explaining. Two 500's raise my BG form 4.0 to 5.3 -- OK US 72 to 95.
I am off wheat mostly; occasionally Clam chowder, sausages, and a few crackers for low BG issues. One cracker raises BG 1.5 at 15 mins.

Thanks for the one hour BG idea. Some of my higher protein meals were a problem, like 280 Calories of canned salmon ran my BG to 9.0 (OK 162). And my doctor says I an not diabetic but my a.m. BG sure is erratic, 4.0 to 6.2 this week.

My experience is similar.

Chris

Hey Phyllis, I'm with you. I have been drinking 4 cups green tea made with tea bags and then chilled and have noticed that I'm not as hungry but didn't really connect it with the tea itself. I need to lose 50 lbs and I like the idea of one meal a day.

Green tea, or any tea actually, makes me a little ill on an empty stomach.  Not sure but believe it is the tannins.  I also was consuming a lot of green/white tea while fasting and I just felt really acidic and my face got red splotches, which seems to coincide with acidity.  I know the net result is supposed to be alkaline for green/white tea but that has not been my experience.  Recently, I've been adding a tablespoon of apple cider vinager to a cup of warm water.  Went a fairly easy 18 hours today but did break down and had four or five macadamia nuts around 12 hours in.

I absolutely drink green and lightly oxidized oolongs during my fasts.   It curbs the hunger and provides focus.  Been doing it for 2.5 years.

After millennia of human starvation, to think that we still have tons to learn about fasting used for health purposes!

Phyllis--While I've not tried it personally, nor do I know of any formal data, I expect that iced green tea--provided it is real brewed green tea, and not the bottled variety--should work every bit as well.

I am unable to drink green tea at all on an empty stomach, I will absolutely throw up if I do.  I end up with pullovertothesideoftheroadI'mgoingtopukeyesseriously!".   I actually threw up all over my suit once which was really special.  Green tea with food often makes me queasy as well.  I am allergic to oak so I think there may be a tannin connection as some heavy oak wines are problematic for me.

I am making today a fast day. I have been drinking a mix of green and white tea but it is decaffeinated.  How often should one fast?

For those who get dizzy on green tea, try puerh tea.  It is a fermented green tea that is also much lower in caffeine and it taste much better than green.  It is the equivalent of drinking an aged red wine over 2 buck chuck.

This question has been around for quite some time,  but no one seems to know the answer for certain.

Theoretically at least, consuming antioxidants during fasting could be detrimental to autophagy (removing "junk" cells), since antioxidants might suppress the stress response from fasting. This is why some studies show antioxidants and exercise are a bad combination -- you *want* some stress to happen so that the body can adapt to it.

Then again, there is the theory that small amounts of antioxidants actually work through the same mechanism as fasting and exercise -- hormesis. In which case fasting + antioxidants might complement each other. But that's just speculation.

What we do know from studies is that green tea seems to increase weight loss, for example when combined with calorie restriction (and thus should apply to fasting):

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-increases-weight-loss-during.html

And when combined with exercise:

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/03/green-tea-extract-increases-insulin.html
http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/02/green-tea-extract-enhances-abdominal.html

And when combined with capsaicin (from chilli pepper), it reduces the feeling of hunger and thus calorie intake:

http://inhumanexperiment.blogspot.com/2009/04/green-tea-and-capsaicin-reduce-hunger.html

So all in all, whatever the mechanism is, if you're fasting just for the sake of losing weight, I'd say green tea is a pretty good bet.

- JLL

Would depend on the length of fasts, but the East Stop East method advocates two fasts per week.  My fasts are now usually shorter, as they kind of trained me to stop grazing. I usually don't bother with breakfast now. The more you eat, the more you want to eat sometimes.

I'm subscribed to your blog, but since  you changed format the posts haven't been showing up in my mail box.  I tried to re-subscribe, but am told I'm already subscribed.  How do I get back in the loop?

Nina

Anyone not receiving email versions of this blog:

I wonder if the shift over to the new platform caused a few glitches. My blog IT help is out of commission temporarily. Therefore, please sign up again at the top.

Sorry about that.

Yes, I completely agree with you! I went 90% wheat and sugar free from November 2010 to February 2011 and lost a whopping 2 pounds. It wasn't until I went to 95% or more wheat free that I was able to start losing weight. I am now 100% wheat free and I have lost 36.2 pounds in 15 weeks. I have also been able to significantly cut my caloric intake to 500-700 calories per day (sometimes less than 500) using iced jasmine green tea. I truly believe that a diet that is lower in calories is better for health. I typically drink 6-8 glasses a day and I really enjoy it. It helps immensely with any hunger I may have and completely satisfies my sense to eat. I use any of the varieties available in tea bag (Numi, Two Leaves and a Bud, Stash, and Mighty Leaf are my favorites). I typically choose whatever's on sale. I also drink a full glass every morning prior to eating and that also seems to stimulate my colon which is a bonus as well when consuming such low caloric counts.

On a cholesterol and BG level, my family genetics are something that should be studied. While I started my diet at 234.8# on 2/15/2011 (I'm 5'3" and 47 y/o female) my total cholesterol was 167 and my HDL was 54. My 102 y/o grandmother however, has a total cholesterol of 155 and an HDL of 115! My 76 y/o mother also has the same great results but her HDL is "only" 109. Neither of them are on any medication for cholesterol and both of them eat a diet fully based on things we berate on this blog (cookies, bread, ice cream, fried foods, etc). Neither are overweight either. I'm eager to see what my levels become when I reach my goal weight. Maybe I can surpass that HDL of 115!

I tried that before I posted and it tells me I'm already subscribed.

Nina

About 15 years ago I went on a fast and had only water.  The fast lasted for 10 days.  No green tea.  Just water.  After 18 hours, I completely lost any hunger.  Meanwhile I continued to cook meals for my family.  I also continued to go to work every day.

The experience seemed wonderful.  I had been suffering badly from asthma, and all symptoms disappeared!  I could have kept going forever without eating.  However, after 10 days I started to have problems with urination.  I began excreting small, hard pellets.

I went to the doctor, and he exploded.  "You bloody fool!" he said.  I had altered the ketone content of my blood.

So I started eating again.  My first meal was brown rice (no salt).  It was the most beautiful meal I ever had.  Gradually I returned to normal eating.  Gradually I returned to my asthma symptoms. Gradually all meals started tasting the same.

Did I lose weight?  I'm not sure, as my ketone problem overshadowed all else.  Did I need green tea or anything else to curb my appetite?  No, plain water (not even distilled or bottled water, but tap water) was good enough. Do I recommend fasting?  In moderation.  10 days is far too long.

Is the fluoride content of any tea (Camellia sinensis) not an issue?  Data on ppm fluoride vary but they all appear to be quite high and much higher than water fluoridation levels.

Try Jasmine Tea which is green tea with Jasmine flowers.  Much tastier.
I don't like plain green tea myself, but I love Jasmine tea.

There is only one problem with green tea: Pesticides.
Most green tea is imported from India or China because it is the cheapest. On testing, a serious amount of pesticides, fungicides, microcides is found regularly. I wonder if this diminishes the health aspect of green tea.
I used to buy organic green tea from Japan but after Fukushima that option is also out.
Still, certified organic is the only option left, I suppose.
Renfrew

Just tried again and I get the same message 'You're already subscribed'.  Pity that Feedburner no longer delivers to me.

Nina

Started IF HFLC diet three months ago. 30 lbs lost and A1c down to
5.1 !! (was 6.7 ) . Curiously I have been drinking green tea during the daily 18 hour fasts and hunger is a rare occurance,  hunger pains last only a few seconds. The tea helps,  body and mind trained to not think about food until
nightly free for all. Thank you, Dr. Davis and contributors>

2 Gabriella

Flouride IS an issue with green tea. There are known cases of flourde poisoning with excessive green tea drinking - woman drinking equivalent of 20-30 green tea cups per day. This isn't something to worry about on regular usage but if you do it on IF with reduced nutrient input and more frequently to reduce appetite it can become a problem.

White tea has lower content of fluoride as it is harvested when plant is still young. It is much more expensive but overall better then green tea due to less processing and lower fluoride content.

Coffee works for me absolutely amazing in reducing hunger. To some people, however, it works the opposite way. My friend develops hand tremor, nervousness, and heat. The same thing she got from the green tea but not other teas. Caffeine might be problematic for some I guess, or maybe tannin. We are currently in the process of isolation of such substance.

To reduce appetite, I found the following valuable:
- Garlic, fresh, in tomato juice (parsley can be included to block the smell). The capsule doesn't work.
- High intensity exercise, short bursts of 15-20 minutes will shut down digestive engine and you will not be able to eat for hour at least.
- Marijuana restriction - its usage during fat loss might be problematic due to activation of CB1/anandamide system.
- Periodic IF can learn body to handle prolonged food abstinence. I find that 16-24 hours fast is enough.
- Almonds, 10-15g, are cool, especially if you tend to go crazy before sleep - its mostly fat which doesn't rise insulin during night. 2g CHO, 3.5g MUFA, 1g PUFA, 2g P is enough to make your hunger go down at least a bit and still keep your insulin down.
- Water

I would suggest extensive supplementation during IF - especially Vit C (at least 2g as frequent as possible), Mg, Iodine, Selenium, Idebenon.

Drs. Davis or Taylor (or anyone else) have you noticed any issues with accumulated caffeine intake from multiple cups of Green Tea throughout the day?

Dr. Davis, I hadn't heard about the dangers of pesticide use relating to green tea (as mentioned by Renfew, above)...is this a viable concern?  Since green tea is loaded with antioxidants, do the benefits outweigh the risks in this case?

I have been drinking about two to three cups of Tazo Zen Green Tea for quite awhile now (hot, as well as chilled), and enjoy it very much.  It does seem to curb cravings quite well.  I also notice increased energy without the edgy side effects that coffee sometimes causes.  Before Tazo, I was not a big fan of the taste of green tea, but the Zen blend also contains lemon verbena, spearmint leaves and lemongrass, which enhances the flavor and makes it quite delicious--providing an "aromatherapy experience" along with the tea consumption.  

Thank you for your informative comment JLL!

me too!i keep hearing about green tea for fasting, so i took it on day 2 i think and was detoxing to fast cos i took it on a empty stomach....:/

I drink the Tazo Zen Green Tea from Starbucks. I prefer this green tea over any others, however I have noticed extreme dizziness when I drink this tea. Has anyone experienced this? I even bought the tea bags to brew at home, I do not add any sweetener and love the taste. I occasionally drink black tea or soda and do not get the same dizzy feeling, therefore I believe it is not caffeine causing me to feel dizzy it's just green tea. Any suggestions or comments? I like the benefits of green tea but not sure it's worth the dizziness.

Wacky. No, I'm not sure why this happens.

Perhaps its some mixture or proportion of the theaflavins or other components. There are hundreds of green tea preparations available. It might be worth finding a happy alternative.

I have been using green tea for years in weight loss.  You are right, it is not a "speedy" remedy and you will only recognize small affects it has, however, it does work.  On average, it is said that you can burn anywhere from 70 to 80 calories a day drinking green tea.  This is assuming you are drinking at least 3 to 4 cups daily.  It should be combined with water and a healthy diet and exercise.

About the dizziness, I had severe vertigo in the middle of the night, i.e. at 3 am (my blood pressure was 130/100 pr 90), and the day and the night before sleeping, I consumed 4 mugs of green tea. The vertigo was associated with vomiting (which relieved the vertigo for a while). The vertigo lasted till the next day (vomited 4x). The green tea was a gift from a friend who came back from China-loose dried leaves. After that episode, I think I can't make myself to drink green tea again.

I sometimes do a morning 'flush' of green tea, up to 4 freshly brewed mugfuls, with the addition of a squeeze of fresh lemon, which complements the taste and gives extra benefits, vitamin c and supporting detoxification.

I recently saw a BBC documentary which demonstrated an optimal brew time of 7 minutes for maximum anti-oxidant release.

Also, the cooled teabags are an excellent beauty treatment for the eye area, squeeze excess moisture and relax for a few minutes.

Am reluctant to extend beyond midday due to stimulating effect of caffeine, how about switching to other teas that deliver other useful benefits? Ginger, fennel, liquorice come to mind.

Blessings of health

Oh man, I really enjoyed that.  Thanks for posting it.  Pollan is a nicely engaging speaker, easy to listen to.  I loved the story about the farm ecosystem ... carting in the chicken coop to eat the grubs in the cow manure.  And of course the USDA Dept of Corn.  Great listen.

A little late on this post --- but I am currently reading In Defense of Food and I love it.  I am waiting patiently for my library copy of The Omnivore's Dilemma.  Thanks for the link to the podcast.  I heard the more recent interview a couple of weeks ago.  Glad to hear this one as well.

The Science Friday segment is a great encapsulation of all the fascinating spins this wonderfully insightful author has on human eating habits and the developing distortions of food choices, much magnified by the food manufacturing industry.

I've lost most of my wheat belly by eating as you suggest. But it seems like there is a last little bit that won't go away, plus I have "wheat breasts". Is there a reason these things don't go away quickly (especially the breasts), and is there something else I can do?

Everything sounds right on! except for the low-fat recommendations.  A body needs fat!

ok, but what is the mechanism?

Please explain why wheat is a problem food.  I am not looking for clinical trials, just a plausible theory that I can align with or not.

Although I don't impose the burden of data on you, here are a few references with ample data showing remarkable statistical evidence for benefits to vegetarianism:-

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/health2.html

http://www.vegetarian-nutrition.info/updates/vegetarian_diets_health_benefits.php

As a Dr I am sure you would feel bad not presenting a balanced view.

Yes. Think I'd avoid the manufactured oils too and go for more animal fats. Just as nature intended.

It is so true, I have experienced it my self, I never used to eat sweets an cereals, but bread and pasta, have been my main diet, not any more!I used to think I had such a healthy diet as I never ate sweets and refind stuff!!

"Most people will report that a cloud has been lifted from their brains. Thinking is clearer, you have more energy, you don't poop out in the afternoon, you sleep more deeply, some rashes disappear. You will also notice that hunger ratchets down substantially. Most people lose the insatiable hunger pangs that occur 2-3 hours after a wheat-containing meal. Instead, hunger is a soft signal that gently prods you that it's time to consider eating again."

The above quote describes me so well, after eliminating wheat from my life!

Is Rye as bad as wheat?

I appreciate your point here, but...

I've been strictly wheat-free since the start of the year (I've slipped up a bit when I've forgotten to pack my own soy sauce for a sushi outing, and there's probably been some "stealth wheat" in infrequent restaurant meals...otherwise nada). I have some sort of wheat-related enteropathy that provides a strong incentive to be strict. I do eat some non-wheat grain products, but not every day. My sugar intake is also not perfect, but it's still much improved over any point in 2008.

So I should be looking pretty good about now, right? Well, no. My weight seems to have stabilized down about 5-7lb below my previous stable weight, but any changes from that baseline have been strictly upward (mostly water retention after weight lifting). My waist measurement is unchanged. If there's any legitimate loss (beyond water weight due to the lower carb diet) it hasn't come off there. I'm quite overweight, so this is really a tiny drop in the bucket.

This near-total lack of improvement has been achieved with a schedule of 4+ hours of intense exercise most weeks.

So, anyway. Not asking for help, just commenting that the picture is not necessarily as rosy as you depict.

brown rice, corn, quinoa, amaranth, whole barley, millet - there are a whole range of whole grain alternatives to wheat. wheat just seems to be more addictive that other grains.

thanks for another great post.

Sorry it I've missed this in your other posts... but besides wheat, are there, in your opinion, any safe cereals? I've been almost completely grain/cereal free for a year but am thinking about adding oatmeal to my diet. In your experience, how well do your patients tolerate this? Thanks.

I agree with what you say about wheat. I feel much better when I omit it from my diet.

However, I do have a question. Previous generations ate wheat without having the dire health consequences we have now. Was this due to
1. not eating nearly as much wheat as people do today? or
2. not eating transfats and/or tons of sugar, along with the wheat? or
3. performing hard, physical labor, something most of us don't do?
Or, perhaps a combination of those things, plus other factors I haven't even considered.

Before great grandpa went out to plow the fields, he probably had a breakfast of some kind of meat and/or eggs, biscuits, perhaps gravy, and then he worked really hard for hours. The kids walked to school, maybe several miles, and lunch might have been bread and butter and milk. And when they had recess, they played hard. That generation didn't have obesity and rampant heart disease. If we lived the same way our grandparents and great grandparents lived, might we be able to eat wheat products (not the super-refined junk, but what they had available), without the major health consequences?

Healthy oils and lean proteins? That idea is derived from the Mediterranean idea which is derived from the observations of Ancel Keys, the father of the lipid hypothesis. It's pure speculation.

It's rather contradictory. The lipid hypothesis says carbohydrate is good. Thus, we should eat wheat. Yet here you are telling us wheat is actually bad for us. Tell us to eat healthy oils, i.e. vegetable oils like olive oil and canola oil. But then tell us to eat lean meats, implying there's something bad about animal fat, i.e. saturated fat, and something good about vegetable oils, i.e. polyunsaturated fat omega 3/6/9 (without noting that vegetable oils contain many times the amount of omega 6 contained in animal fat). Ancel Keys' lipid hypothesis is based on those assumptions too.

To cut wheat, yes. But to cut animal fat, where's the justification?

@D: I do think exercise offsets a lot of metabolic derangement. It's part of how hockey players (the young serious ones, not slow moving middle-aged folks like me) can get away with eating shockingly poor diets.

Incidentally, my parents tell me my grandpa had very similar symptoms to mine, before I was old enough to be aware of it myself. I have some sort of intolerance or allergy, though.

reply to D:
One of the problems with modern bread is the speed it's produced at.
Starting in the early 1960's bread production was industrialised using "bread improvers". A loaf can now be turned out in just a couple of hours, whereas back in the past it was a long process. Earlier in the nineteenth century and before, bread had to 'prove' using naturally occurring wild yeasts. The time factor is important because of the somewhat indigestible properties of grain. Phytic acid and enzymes in the grain need to be neutralised with a long exposure to yeasts. This can be achieved also by soaking grains overnight or longer.
Traditional societies prepare their grains this way to make them digestible and to get the full nutritional benefit.
See 'Weston Price Foundation' for information for grain prep.

My experience supports giving wheat up completely, not just cutting down. My chronic joint pain went away--maybe an autoimmune-related phenomenon. Will be interested to see if it affects my serum C-reactive protein.

"You will also notice that hunger ratchets down substantially. Most people lose the insatiable hunger pangs that occur 2-3 hours after a wheat-containing meal. Instead, hunger is a soft signal that gently prods you that it's time to consider eating again."

My mother, and paternal grandmother were both diagnosed with hypoglycemia (low blood sugar), and were instructed to eat many small meals per day to avoid symptoms of hypoglycemia.

I started having the same symptoms during junior high, so my mother taught me to eat many small meals to avoid my shakes, headaches, and light-headedness that happened after 3-4 hours without food (except when I ate really large meals occasionally, then I could last longer without food).

I start following Dr. Davis' blog, and he was blogging about the benefits of fasting from some studies. I commented that I didn't think I could fast because of the hypoglycemia, and he replied to stick it out, and stop the wheat. Coincidentally, I had a borderline H1C at that time.

But instead of sticking it out, I forced myself to not eat until my hypoglycemic signs started, then I ate veggies, meat, or fruit, with a few nuts here and there. I'd eat as little as possible, then wait until the next episode of hypoglycemic symptoms. Oh, I did continue eating rice or potatoes, but smaller servings, and quit sugar during that time.

I started noticing I could go a little longer between meals without hypoglycemic symptoms after about 4 days, and I think it was about 7-10 days off wheat and sugar (but still eating a little rice or potatoes) when I went 16 hours without food, and no hypoglycemic symptoms.

My follow-up HA1C was in the normal range after stretching out my meals, and stopping wheat and sugar.

Does wheat reduction works as well (i.e. eating a slice of bread or 30 grams of pasta or breading your meat instead of eating two big bowls of pasta, a loaf of bread, a slice of pizza, several biscuits and pastries daily) or total removal of wheat from the diet is absolutely required?

I believe that wheat and refined carbs are responsible for the 'muffin-tops' and 'wheat bellies' so many folks are carrying around now.
I work with people who have gluten addiction all the time and when they eat a Whole foods diet free of gluten, dairy, soy, and sugar the weight falls off them quick. And onlike most other diets the weight falls off the belly first, which is an awesome motivator. Also, there aren't the constant cravings of the low fat diet. My dad went on the gluten, dairy, soy and sugar free diet plan and his blood sugar and blood pressure went from borderline diabetic/high blood pressure to optimal ranges in a few weeks. He is off all medications now and full of energy at 66 years old.

Now, if I were trying to sell you something, say, an alternative to wheat, then you should be skeptical. If I tell you that drug or nutritional supplement X is great and you should take it, only to follow it with a sales pitch, you should be skeptical.

I have been low carb for 5 years and cut out wheat from my diet completely. No pasta, no breads of any kind, no breading on my meat, no waffles/pancakes/donuts/etc or any grains at all. I also cut out potatoes and corn.

I dropped down from 190 to 135, a normal weight for my height, and I have kept it off for 4 years. I completely believe that the grains we eat now are so far removed from what they used to be  (due to refining processes, selective breeding to be more tasty, etc) that they have become a slow acting poison.

Thank you for this blog!

I wish there was a law that would prevent quackery such as this from being published and promoted.  "This food is evil".  "That food is evil".  Aside from junk food that is high in fat and/or sugar, specific foods or food groups are not the problem unless you have an allergy.

David says:
"I wish there was a law that would prevent quackery such as this from being published and promoted. “This food is evil”. “That food is evil”. Aside from junk food that is high in fat and/or sugar, specific foods or food groups are not the problem unless you have an allergy."

And I wish there was a law that would prevent the 'ignorant gene' from being passed down from parents to children...

Thank you Dr. Davis for bringing this to light.  It would seem plausible that genetically modified grains have contributed significantly to our modern illnesses...most notably, inflammation, diabetes and the dramatic rise in the incidence of celiac disease.  As grains have been "pushed" into our daily diets since the 1970's (think low fat, whole grain nonsense), T-2 diabetes has increased exponentially!  And while there is no 'one-size-fits-all' DIET, if the USDA Food Pyramid (the definitive guide on how to eat healthy!) was so great with its ongoing drumbeat of  "EAT MORE GRAINS!", then wouldn't we have LESS diabetes...LESS obesity...and wouldn't we all be slim and healthy?  I guess this is the reason why the standard American diet has the acronym: SAD...

Hi, Donna--

Well said!

The status quo has gotten us into a heap of misery, health-wise. I am not willing to accept it!

FYI:  There is no longer a USDA food pyramid with an emphasis on grains on the bottom of the pyramid.
It was replaced by "ChooseMyPlate" in August 2011.  It's not perfect.  One fourth of the plate is for grains.  But I am happy to see that half of the plate is for vegetables and fruits.
http://www.choosemyplate.gov/

Are oats and oat and oat bran also bad for you?

We took all oat products out of the diet a while back, due to its extravagant blood sugar-increasing effect.

I always understood that men should get a PSA test prior to starting DHEA. Is that not the case in your experience?

Peace

Joe E O

Well, if I'd been your patient, you would have seen gynomastia in me at 25mg/day after about a month.

It sure did help my energy and mood, though -- wouldn't I love to be able to take it!  

Breasts aren't a good look for me, though.

"No wonder: Any hormone taken in extraordinary, supraphysiologic doses will exert wacky effects. Imagine taking testosterone or estrogen at 50 times the usual dose."

Thats why some people are hesitant to take Vitamin D in larger than "usual" doses.

I take 10,000 IU/day of D3...hope I don't grow a mustache!

Are there any interactions between DHEA and any medicines, specifically beta-Blockers?

I take 5mg of DHEA because testing showed slightly low levels. I can't say I have noticed any difference with this small dose.

I read on the the internet the the largest study ever done on DHEA came up with 2 very interesting findings. This was a double blind study mind you. Finding number 1 supplementing with DHEA did indeed raise blood levels of DHEA in the body. Finding number 2 the ones that received the DHEA and increased their blood levels reported no more of the supposed "positives" than the placebo group. No "better mood, no more energy . . . Authors conclusion: while supplementing with DHEA can raise blood levels its of no use. For those of you out there thinking thtas ridiculus remember we've had examples of this before. Rememeber the big homcystene controversy from a few years back? The higher the homocystene levels the greater the risk of heart attack. We knew that by using Folic Acid among other things we could reduce Homocystene levels and we did. However it din't do anything to lessen the chance for a heart attack. Just manipulating blood levels of substances doesn't mean your doing any good in some cases. Dhea and Homocystene are 2 very good examples. But hey placebo effect can be very real. We just ruin everybodies fun with are silly double blind studies.

Anonymous, do you have a citation for the double-blind study that showed no benefit?  "I read on the internet" is a bit broad.

I'm sorry I didn't cite the citation I was making a brief comment to a message on a blog not my senior thesis. A simple check of DHEA and google takes about 30 seconds to come up with the information. Sorry next time I cite a study I will do the proper citation.

The earlier anonymous posting seems to be true, if you google DHEA there doesn't seem to be alot of supporting evidence for many of the claims made about DHEA, and he's right it took about 30 seconds to see that.

TYP: try Google Scholar...

I recently took a four-month course of DHEA at 3x/d 25mg (75mg total per day) since it's showing some promise in women over forty who have been dubbed "poor responders" without much explanation in previous IVF cycles.  

It's used to induce a physiological state of PCOS - trapping antral follicles in the ovaries so when ovarian stimulation begins, the number of follicles that mature increases.

Anyway, for me it did trap antral follicles, but that did not lead to an increase in mature follicular development in the IVF cycle...I remained a "poor responder" to the injectable gonadotropins.

The side effects were minor for the most part, but the most disturbing was the redistribution of body fat...I went from, without a change on the scale in weight, a classic pear/hourglass to an absolute apple in less than two months, then continued to accumulate abdominal fat for the remaining two months.  This is a known side-effect in women and any woman considering supplemental DHEA needs to consider the risk to benefit for waist-hip ratio and waist circumferance.  

Other side effects were a loss of hair on my head, slight peach-fizz hair along my face on my hair line and an increase in appetite...although as I said above, I didn't gain weight on the scale, but did wind up with abdominal fat and a loss of LBM as evidenced by my declining muscle tone in my legs and arms.

Just something to consider if one is thinking about supplementing - perhaps getting tested for levels before supplementing blindly is a better idea than going ahead and not knowing if you're even deficient?

Great observations! Thanks.

Dear Anonymous,

What is your 25(OH)D level?

The reason I ask is because vitamin D has been given to infertile men (low sperm count). And I bet it works for some women as well.  (In animal studies, both vitamin A and D are used to 'reverse' infertility).

Did you know that silent celiac disease can cause infertility (which was news to me!)? (I had an article that discusses silent celiac disease recently).

Regards, G

What is your 25(OH)D level?

The reason I ask is because vitamin D has been given to infertile men (low sperm count). And I bet it works for some women as well. (In animal studies, both vitamin A and D are used to 'reverse' infertility).

My levels were within normal when we tested it in October and since it was winter, I was supplementing daily with 2000IU fish oil derived D3....so the vitamin D was covered.

Did you know that silent celiac disease can cause infertility (which was news to me!)? (I had an article that discusses silent celiac disease recently).

Yes!  I recently stumbled on data about celiac and asymptomatic celiac associated with infertility.  At this point, I've totally eliminated all grain based foods and we're seeing what happens.  Thus far we things are looking up - when we did a scan recently to track my ovulation, it looks like this cycle may bear two mature follicles sans any drugs...at my age maturing and releasing more than one egg happens...and we're taking it as possibly a side-effect of the removal of all grains from my diet. Thanks for the heads up though, if I hadn't already stumbled on it as a possibility - it would have been very useful information for me!

I have heard about prostate enlargement by using DHEA.

I recently requested my hormone levels be tested after being prescribed Prozac (don't want it!!) for pain in my back - trigger points - and my DHEA Sulfate level came back at 21.  I'm 39. My progesterone was 3.2.  Would a 20% progesterone cream with additional 15% DHEA 15% Pregnenolone three weeks per month help me???  Thank you for any information!

The doses we use for the above benefits, including Lp(a) reduction, range from 25-100 mg per day; most people do fine with 50 mg. We also adjust doses to starting blood levels. In this dose range, I have never seen any of the above side-effects.

Yep.Didn't have a lot of BF to begin with. But once I went 90% Paleo, I could see my libea alba within weeks.

I've been 80% paleo for a year, and while I lost oodles of BF, I'm still not there... :[

No yet, but I'm working on it

I've been wheat/sugar/flour etc free for about 4 months and although I didn't want to drop weight, it just happened; fast. About a month ago I dropped the rest of the grains from my diet and even though my weight stayed the same, the small love handles I had-or extra fat around the waist- disappeared. It wasn't much to begin with, but it's pretty much gone.

this raises an interesting question: what should your ideal weight be?  No doubtthere are benefits to Low Carb diet, but where or how low should your weight be.

I have lost 9 kg this year but my linea alba is still not visible, with the exception of between the two upper parts of the six-pack abdominal muscles.

Even though a fat-based diet is effective in removing fat tissue, it still takes time to remove the fat tissue.

Your "ideal" weight should be what you weighed when you were 25 yrs old....+/- 10lbs, at the most.
Women, post gravida, usually....usually...put on about 5-10 lbs after childbirth...that's reasonable...due to hormonal influences.
But men, you should be at your 25 yr old weight
Plus, that's when the human body fully matures in all neuromuscularoskeletal body areas.
Makes sense to be that weight...unless you are eating grains!

Combine the NO wheat with the plank, push-ups and pull-ups and your linea alba will jump forward. If you are not there yet; You also have a linea alba in your mouth ;)

Paleo has done me well - kept me slim. Lately, increased kettlebell workouts have tones me even more. Have to be honest though - just cant seem to get the full sixpack...upper four are there but those bottom two ba$tards....;)

Dropping the wheat made a huge improvement on my lipid profile. The only draw back is that I was already pretty thin with 18% body fat, now I'm probably down to 8%. People have commented that I look "too" thin and my cheeks have kind of a sunken look.

"Your "ideal" weight should be what you weighed when you were 25 yrs old....+/- 10lbs, at the most."

Don't get out much?  There are tons (pun intended) of massively fat, morbidly obese teenagers all over the country these days.  Go to your local Walmart and check it out. Truly sad. Starbucks muffins, HFCS, McDonald's, etc.

Re: whether you should weigh what you did at age 25, it depends on what kind of shape you were in at that age. Me, I weigh what I did in high school. Awhile back, I wasn't hungry for a few days and saw a number on the scale that I hadn't seen since junior high.

I wouldn't trade the white line for all the white food in the world.

"Your "ideal" weight should be what you weighed when you were 25 yrs old....+/- 10lbs, at the most."

I weighed 60kg at 183cm when I was 25. I now weigh 74kg which is far more appropriate.

It is also possible to be of "normal" weight and have very high body fat and very low muscle mass.

Also factor in relative muscle mass. I am a big believer of strength training, e.g., Fred Hahn's "slow-burn" techniques. Not only do you feel better, you enhance insulin responsiveness, increase HDL, reduce triglycerides, and increase bone density. However, this will increase the crude BMI measure, as well as body weight.

It also heightens the likelihood of seeing your linea alba.

Oh, I don't know... I dated a few women who had the linea alba readily visible, and their diet was mostly junky microwavable frozen food dinners and fast food (when I didn't take them out, that is
I think the Linea alba being visible is simply a benefit of fewer caloris, not the makeup of those calories.

Kent said:
"The only draw back is that I was already pretty thin with 18% body fat, now I'm probably down to 8%."

This is extremely unlikely unless you are a world class endurance athlete. You are probably still 14-15% body fat. Even very thin people can have surprisingly high body fat levels.

I have a friend who is an Australian  national-level middle-distance runner. He has 15% body fat.

When you lose weight by caloric restriction (including LC diets) you will nearly always lose (a lot) of muscle as well as fat.

The only way to prevent muscle loss and bulk up is to undertake a resistance training program. Without this protein is just broken down and excreted in the urine.

Ballerinas and runway models often have appalling diets and still manage to stay thin.

It is even possible to get reasonably fat on a paleodiet by ignoring appetite signals.

Heart  disease is one of the most  dangerous disease which takes thousands of life every years all over the world. If we know its symptoms and Treatment for heart disease. We can prevent is to large extent.

[...] defintions are a good starting point, but not complete. It is still possible to have an undefined linea albinea and handles with lower ab definition. Level 3 probably needs to be broken down into components.   [...]