Heart disease reversal a big "No No"

I dare you: Ask your doctor whether coronary heart disease can be reversed.

My prediction is that the answer will be a flat "NO." Or, something like "rarely, in extraordinary cases," kind of like spontaneous cure of cancer.

There are indeed discussions that have developed over the years in the conventional scientific and medical literature about reversal of heart disease, like Dean Ornish's Lifestyle Heart Trial, the REVERSAL Trial of atorvastatin (Lipitor) and the ASTEROID Trial of rosuvastatin (Crestor). Reversal of atherosclerotic plaque in these trials tends to be small in scale and sporadic.

Of course, the medical literature is swamped with studies that have nothing to do with reversal, like what stent is best, what platelet-inhibiting intravenous drug is best, when should angioplasty or stents be used and when, do implantable defibrillators save lives, improvements in coronary bypass techniques, etc. There are tens of thousands of these studies for every study that focuses on the question of atherosclerotic plaque reversal.

The concept of reversal of heart disease has simply not gained a foothold in the lexicon nor in the thinking of practicing physicians. Heart disease is a relentlessly, unavoidably, and helplessly progressive disease in their way of thinking. Perhaps we can reduce the likelihood of cardiovascular events like heart attack and death with statin drugs and beta blockers. But reverse heart disease ? In your dreams!

We need to change this mentality. Heart disease is a reversible phenomenon. Atherosclerosis in other territories like the carotid arteries is also a reversible pheneomenon. Rather than throwing medicines and (ineffective) diets at you (like the ridiculous American Heart Association program), what if your doctor set out from the start not just to reduce events, but to purposefully reduce your heart's plaque? While it might not succeed in everyone, it would certainly change the focus dramatically.

After all, isn't this the theme followed in cancer treatment? If you had a tumor, isn't cure the goal? Would we accept an oncologist's advice to simply reduce the likelihood of death from cancer but ignore the idea of ridding yourself completely of the disease? I don't think so.

Then why accept "event reduction" as a goal in heart disease? We shouldn't have to. Heart disease reversal--elimination--should be the goal.

Demystification

Once upon a time, remember how medical information was mysterious, hospitals were places where frightening, inscrutable things happened, diseases were strange maladies that struck without reason, and obtaining information about health was like hunting for buried treasure? The full extent of many peoples' understanding of health came through relatively anemic sources like Readers' Digest. (Remember "I am Joe's Colon"?)

Compare this to what we have now. If I wanted to obtain information about ankylosing spondylitis (a rare genetic disease of the spine), a Google search yields 1.46 million citations. Not all the information, of course, is helpful or relevant, but there's certain to be a bounty of information that far exceeds what you could have uncovered 40 years ago.




Suppose you enter the search phrase "antithrombin III" into your Google search. Citations: over 900,000. (The number of search citations, in fact, exceeds the number of Americans with a deficiency of this blood clotting protein!)

The same is true with heart disease. There was a time, not more than 30-40 years ago, when information about the heart and heart disease was hard to come by. The most you would find were superficial discussions about heart attacks, what chest pain means, descriptions of bypass surgery. Ask your doctor, you'd likely receive a brief, cursory response about how you probably shouldn't worry it.

Even during medical school in the 1980s, I remember struggling to get answers to my questions from faculty during medical school and medical training. It was as if providing too much information would eliminate the advantage superiors wielded over trainees.

The same selfish sentiment, the "I know something you don't know" mentality reminiscent of a schoolboy's "naa na na naa naa!" unfortunately persists. But it is rapidly disintegrating. Soon it will join the junk heap of medical mis-information accumulated over the years (a big pile, to be sure). The internet and, I'll admit (grudgingly), the media, have been responsible for demystifying the formerly mysterious and indecipherable world of health.

You now have, at a moment's disposal, access to an extraordinary array and breadth of health information that was inconceivable just a few years ago.

Times are changing. Doctors no longer hold the monopoly over health information. The public--YOU--are rapidly becoming the arbiters of health, the informed consumers of a soon-to-be retail product called health care, and the increasingly savvy judges of what should join the mainstream path of health. It is all part of this wave of change that I've been advocating: the emerging concept of self-empowerment in healthcare.

Added to the junk heap of health-mistakes-of-years-past will be medical protectionism over health information, heart procedures, drug industry excesses, nutritional mis-information, among others. The demystification of health information will open the floodgates of individual insight into health. It delivers control over your own health destiny straight into your own lap.

Everything has omega-3

Walking the supermarket aisles, you may have lately noticed that numerous new products are appearing sporting "omega-3s" on the label.

Some products simply contain alpha-linolenic acid, a tiny amount of which is converted to the biologically active omega-3s, EPA and DHA. Natural Ovens' Brainy Bagel, for instance, carries a claim of "620 omega-3."



I find this confusing and misleading, since people will often interpret such a claim to mean that it contains 620 of EPA and DHA, similar to two capsules of standard fish oil (1000 mg capsules). Of course, it does NOT. I find this especially troublesome when people will actually stop or reduce their fish oil, since they've been misled into thinking that products like this bread contain active omega-3 fatty acids that yield all the benefits of the "real stuff."


Other products actually contain the omega-3, DHA, though usually in small quantities. Breyer's Smart with DHA is an example, with 32 mg DHA per container.


I find products with actual DHA (from algae) a more credible claim. However, the Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI) has looked at the actual contents of DHA in some of these products and found some discrepancies, including amounts of DHA less than the labeled amount and claims of omega-3 wihtout specifying DHA vs. linolenic acid. (It's probably linolenic acid, if it's not specified.)

All in all, the addition of DHA to food products is a nice way to boost your intake of this healthy omega-3. However, keep in mind that these are processed, often highly processed, foods and you will likely pay a premium for the little boost. For now, stick to fish oil, the real thing.

For a brief summary of the CSPI report and a link to the Nutrition Action Newsletter, see Omega-3 Madness: Fish Oil or Snake Oil.

Are cardiologists the enemy?

I'm sitting at dinner with two colleagues. One is a cardiology colleague, another an internist who, in addition to practicing general internal medicine, also takes heart disease prevention very seriously. He has, in fact, participated in the Track Your Plaque program and dropped his heart scan score substantially.

"Why don't we see you in the cath lab much?" my cardiology colleague asked me. He was puzzled, since he knew my background in cath lab work from years before, spending day and night doing procedure after procedure. He spends virtually all his days there.

"Well, my patients simply don't have events any more. Heart attacks and angina among people in my program are just about non-existent. They don't have symptoms and they don't have to go to the hospital. I can't remember the last time that I was woken up in the middle of the night for an urgent procedure for one of my patients."

The internist across the table smiled and expressed his agreement. "That's the same thing I'm seeing: No heart attacks, very few if any referrals to cardiologists for procedures. I remember when it was a several times a week thing. Now, almost never. "

Looking at my cardiology colleague, I saw the usual cardiologist reaction: Eyes searching left and right and behind us for something more interesting. Certainly, talking about a virtual cure for coronary heart disease was just too damn dull.

Such is the attitude of 98% of my colleagues: If it doesn't generate a revenue-producing procedure, why bother? Prevention is for general practitioners, the line of thinking goes. "And anyway, I'm too busy doing procedures! I don't ahve time to talk about prevention and health!" Of course, the poor general practitioner is already overloaded with caring for arthritis, flu, diabetes and all the new drugs for diabetes, headaches, vaccinations, diarrhea, and . . .oh, yes, heart disease prevention.

Are cardiologists the enemy? No, of course they are are not. But they often act like they are. Talking to cardiologists is like going to the car dealer with your checkbook out, pen in hand. The salesman gets to write the check himself and you just sign it. Talk to a cardiologist and more often than not you will end up with a heart procedure--whether or not you need it.

Unfortunately--tragically--they often forget what they are supposed to be doing: Taking care of a disease by preventing it. Putting in a defibrillator is not preventing a disease. Putting in three stents, laser angioplasty, and thrombectomy are not ways of preventing a disease.

I'm thankful for my internist friend who sees the light. Coronary heart disease is a an easily measurable, quantifiable, preventable, and REVERSIBLE process for many, if not most, people when provided the right tools. But don't ask your neighborhood cardiologists to give you those tools.

Are CETP inhibitors kaput?

Was torcetrapib’s crash and burn fatal for this class of drug?

At the 2007 American Heart Association meetings in Orlando, Florida, Dr. Philip Barter of Sydney, Australia, presented an update of the ILLUMINATE drug trial for the once-promising drug, torcetrapib, the billion-dollar bet that Pfizer made on its first entry into the new drug class.

You may recall that the crash and burn of Pfizer’s torcetrapib in December 2006 made headlines and prompted enormous disappointment for many patients and doctors who had hoped for a new drug choice to raise HDL cholesterol. Pfizer executives (heads flew!) and investors were also disappointed, anticipating release of a drug that might have become the number one biggest selling drug in the world—ever, surpassing even Lipitor's® $13 billion annual sales.

Torcetrapib is the first among the “cholesteryl-ester transfer protein inhibitors,” or CETP-inhibitors, drugs that block the exchange of cholesterol and triglycerides between HDL and VLDL particles and prevent formation of the unwanted small LDL particles. Preliminary efforts suggested that effects were positively enormous.

However, the 15,000-participant trial was abruptly terminated after 550 days when an excess of deaths were identified among the group taking the experimental drug: 59 deaths in control group; 93 deaths in the torcetrapib group.

In addition, cardiovascular events were 24% greater in the torcetrapib group, numbering 373 compared to 464 in the no-torcetrapib group, including a substantially greater number of heart attacks and hospitalizations. Another surprise came in the way of cause of death among some of the torcetrapib patients, with an excess of deaths due to cancers (twice as many in the torcetrapib group), strokes, and infections.

Why the divergence: enormous improvements in cholesterol values, yet increase in adverse effects including more heart attack? Deeper digging by the principal investigators uncovered unexpected distortions of electrolytes like sodium and potassium. They then re-analyzed blood samples from participants on both sides of the trial and discovered that participants taking torcetrapib experienced significant rise in the blood pressure hormone, aldosterone. This, they surmised, also likely accounted for the 4 mmHg average rise in blood pressure among those taking the experimental drug. (This is the same pathway blocked by blood pressure drugs like ACE inhibitors lisinopril and enalapril, ARBs like losartan.)

Simultaneously (what a coincidence!) with the torcetrapib data, investigators at competing drug manufacturer, Merck, reported encouraging data with their version of CETP inhibitor, anacetrapib. In a phase II FDA trial of 589 patients, anacetrapib reduced LDL-C levels by up to 40% and increased HDL-C up to 139%.


Spokesman Daniel Bloomfield, M.D., of Merck Research Laboratories reported that "The favorable lipid effects seen in this study with multiple doses of anacetrapib were significant, and confirm the continued evaluation of the clinical benefits of CETP inhibitors in the treatment of dyslipidemia." Quick to distinguish this drug from torcetrapib’s track record of dangerous effects on blood pressure, he added that "the decreased LDL-C concentrations, increased HDL-C concentrations and no demonstrable increase in blood pressure seen with anacetrapib are particularly encouraging results of this study."

However, the data reported only an 8 week expereince. Given the experience with torcetrapib, longer term data will obviously be required to assess safety. After Pfizer spent over $1 billion and sacrificed lives to obtain this experience, Merck will need to tread carefully.

It will clearly be many years before we have a confident answer on whether the CETP-inhibitor class of drugs will be a safe choice for correction of cholesterol abnormalities, especially low HDL. Are we helpless until then?

Though CETP inhibitors offer the potential for a one-stop opportunity to raise HDL substantially, there are still many strategies available to raise HDL.

Strategies that raise HDL and are available today include:
• Weight loss—to your ideal weight. A very effective strategy.
• Reduction in processed carbohydrates—like breads, pasta, cookies, pretzels, etc. Note that very low-fat diets reduce HDL. Often a huge effect.
• Fish oil—A small effect, more dramatic when triglycerides are high.
• Niacin—Vitamin B3, the best we have at present. Doses of 500-1500 mg per day raise HDL 20–50%; work with your doctor if you are contemplating niacin. We use this agent everyday and have had great success; good hydration is key to minimize the annoying “hot-flush” effect.
• Dark chocolate—40 grams, or about 2 inches square, a delicious way to squeeze out a little rise in HDL.
• Alcoholic beverages—Red wines are almost certainly the preferred route, rich in flavonoids.
• Exercise—HDL-raising effects vary, but can sometimes be as much as 10–20 mg.
• Other drugs—Though not commonly used for this effect, drugs like pioglitazone (for diabetes and pre-diabetes); fibrates (Tricor® or fenofibrate; Lopid® or gemfibrozil); and Pletal® or cilostazol are occasionally prescribed.
• Vitamin D—You won’t find validation of this effect in any scientific study, but our emerging experience in our heart disease reversal program is suggesting that this neglected nutrient can exert powerful HDL-raising effects. In fact, supplementing vitamin D has made my life much easier.


And, last I checked, none of these HDL-raising strategies are ever fatal.

Roto Rooter for plaque




Joe, a machinist, was frightened and frustrated.

With a heart scan score of 1644 at age 61, his eyes bulged when I advised him that, if preventive efforts weren't instituted right away, his risk for heart attack was a high as 25% per year. Joe had "passed" a stress test, thus suggesting that, while coronary plaque was present--oodles of it, in fact--coronary blood flow was normal. Thus, there would be no benefit to inserting three stents, say, or a bypass operation.


(Illustration courtesy Wikipedia)

"I don't get it, doc. Why can't you just take it out? You know, like Roto-Rooter it out? Or give me something to dissolve it!"

Of course, if there were such a thing, I'd give it to him. But, of course, there is not. It doesn't mean that there haven't been efforts in this direction over the years. Among the various attempts made to "Roto-Rooter" atherosclerotic plaque have included:

Coronary endarterectomy
This is a drastic procedure rarely performed anymore but enjoyed some popularity in the 1980s and 1990s. Coronary endarterectomy was performed during coronary bypass surgery, but few thoracic surgeons performed it. Milwaukee's Dr. Dudley Johnson was the foremost practitioner of this procedure (retired a few years ago after his own bypass operation) with a mortality in excess of 25%. A very dangerous procedure, indeed. The technical hurdle, beyond the tedium and length of time required to remove plaque that had a tendency to fragment, was blood clot formation after tissue was exposed upon plaque removal. I saw many lengthy hospital stays and deaths following this procedure.

Coronary atherectomy
This is an angioplasty-type procedure that has gone through several variations over the years.

In the early 1990s, transluminal extraction atherectomy (TEC) was a technique involving low-rpm drill bits with a suction apparatus that was used to clear soft debris, usually from large coronary arteries or, more commonly, bypass grafts. Then came direction atherectomy, in which a steel housing contained a sharp drill bit that captured atherosclerotic plaque in an aperture along the housing length and stuffed it into a nosecone, retrieved once the device was removed.

Then came high-speed rotational atherectomy in which a diamond-tipped drill bit rotated up to 200,000 rpm and essentially pulverized plaque to flow downstream and, presumably, eventually captured by the liver for disposal. Rotational atherectomy is still in use on occasion. Laser angioplasty, usually using the excimer wavelength, vaporizes plaque. I did plenty of all of these back in the early and mid-1990s.

While all atherectomy procedures sound clever, they are all plagued by the same problem: vigorous return of plaque. Remove plaque, it grows back. There are few instances today in which atherectomy is still performed.

Chelation
This involves a metal-binding, or "chelating," agent like EDTA normally used in conventional practice for lead poisoning. Usually administered IV, some have also advocated oral use. People who use chelation also tend to believe in faith healing and other practices based on faith, not science. There is an international trial that is nearing completion that should provide the final word on whether there is any role to intravenous chelation.

There are numerous other oral treatments that claim a Roto-Rooter-like effect. Nattokinase, for example--an outright, unadulterated, and unqualified scam.

Unfortunately, the helpless, ignorant, and gullible are many. When frightened by the specter of heart disease, there are plenty of people who will willingly pay for the hope provided by clever ads, fast-talking salespeople, and unscrupulous practitioners.

So, Joe, there is no Roto-Rooter for coronary atherosclerotic plaque, at least one that is safe, doesn't involve a life-threatening effort, provides results that endure beyond a few months, and truly works.

The Track Your Plaque program may not be easy. There are obvious common hurdles to adhering to these concepts: obtaining lipoprotein testing, getting intelligent interepretation of the results, persuading your doctor to measure vitamin D blood levels, battling the onslaught of prevailing food propaganda that confuses and misleads. The Track Your Plaque program also requires time, at least a year.

But it's the best program there is. Do you know of anything better?

"Beware nutritional supplements"



In our effort to expand the reach for the nationwide conversation on heart disease reversal, I'd like to welcome the newest contributor to the Track Your Plaque family, a new Member blogger, Heart Cipher.

We first came to appreciate the insights of Heart Cipher on our Member Forum. His curiousity and ability to cut through the bull--- have won over our hearts and minds. I think you will appreciate his unique perspective as someone who has experienced first hand the inadequacies of the present procedure-focused, drug-obsessed standard of medical care that dominates, yet has the intelligence and worldliness to recognize that there are better ways.

Read his post about meeting a new cardiologist for the first time and the reaction he receives when he describes the Track Your Plaque program here.

http://www.heartcipher.com/

The rules of reversal


For the last few years, most practicing physicians have followed a rough blueprint for cholesterol management provided by the Adult Treatment Panel-III “consensus” guidelines, or ATP-III, a lengthy document last released in 2001, updated in 2004.

For instance, ATP-III suggests reducing LDL cholesterol to 100 mg/dl or less for those deemed to be at high risk for future heart disease, arbitrarily defined as a risk of 20% over a 10-year period. It also suggests that a desirable triglyceride level is no more than 150 mg/dl. The ATP-III guidelines have been the topic of discussion in thousands of medical meetings, editorials, and reports. They have served as the basis for many dinners at nice restaurants, weeks in Vegas or Honolulu, many, many lunches catered by pharmaceutical representatives. For most internists, family doctors, cardiologists, and lipid clinics, ATP-III is the Bible for cholesterol management.

AT-III has also become the de facto standard that could conceivably held up as the prevailing "standard of care" in a court of law in cases of presumed negligence to treat cholesterol values. “Doctor, would you agree that the consensus guidelines issued by the National Institutes of Health and endorsed by the American Heart Association state that LDL cholesterol should be reduced to 100? You do? Then why was Mr. Jones’ LDL not addressed according to these guidelines?”

Who was on the ATP-III panel and on what scientific evidence were the guidelines based? Several problems:

1) Of the 9 physician members of the panel, 8 had ties to industry, some of them quite intimate.

2) The studies upon which the guidelines were based and figure prominently, such as the Heart Protection Study, PROVE IT, and 4S, were all funded by the pharmaceutical industry. Of course, it would be unreasonable to expect anyone other than the pharmaceutical industry to fund drug studies. But prominently neglected or understated in the guidelines are all the other insights and treatments for coronary atherosclerotic risk available that were NOT funded by industry.

Of course, there’s money to be made in reducing LDL cholesterol. Lots of it--$23 billion last year alone, in fact. Just keeping that fact in mind makes the ATP-III guidelines make far better sense.

ATP-III is really not a blueprint for heart disease prevention. It is a blueprint--by industry, for industry--on how and when to treat LDL cholesterol.


But what if ATP-III had been a map for navigating coronary plaque reversal instead? What if it were not obsessed with just reducing LDL cholesterol, but was focused on providing the corner internist, family doctor, or cardiologist a roadmap for navigating the highways and byways of reversal?

That would be interesting. Mainstream reversal. Imagine that.

Among the difficulties is that the path to reversal is not lined with deep pockets. Treat LDL and who gains? That's easy. Reverse heart disease and who gains? Beyond LDL reduction, very few (beyond you and me, of course).

That’s why the call for a new Age of Self-Empowerment in healthcare is necessary now more than ever. In my view, in the foreseeable future, we will not have an ATP-III-like blueprint for heart disease control or reversal, nor will we witness a boom of nationwide appreciation that coronary atherosclerosis is a reversible process.

It’s time to take the control back and put it in our own hands. Don't expect the American Heart Association to do it. Don't expect the pharmaceutical industry to do it. If there's anyone who's going to do it, it's YOU.

Incurable wheataholics

Greg slumped back in his chair.

"I'm sorry, doc. I feel like the world's biggest schlump!"

He was referring to the fact that he had gone wheat-free for two months--eliminated all breads, bagels, donuts, pasta, breakfast cereals, crackers, pretzels--and promptly lost 30 lbs. He felt great, discovered new levels of energy he thought he'd lost long ago.

Then some friends convinced him to have some cheeseburgers at a fast food restaurant.

"After that, it was downhill. I couldn't get enough. My wife made chile and I had to have four slices of bread with it. Then I'd have two more. I just couldn't stop."

Now, having regained the 30 lbs in the space of another two months, Greg was expressing his disgust.

And it's not the first time. Greg has struggled with his wheat-alholism for as long as I've known him. I've tried motivating him by showing him the flagrant lipoprotein patterns that his wheat habit and excess weight caused: markedly elevated LDL particle number, severe small LDL, low HDL, high triglycerides, high C-reactive protein, high blood sugar, high blood pressure. Greg has received a total of 7 stents over the past 5 years. His next stop is the operating room for a bypass if he can't bring his patterns and impulses under control.

But for some reason, Greg seems to always return to the wheat trough, gorging on breads, pretzels, cake, often in great quantities.

I'm not entirely sure what to do with someone with Greg's severe degree of wheat-aholism. I view wheat-aholism as similar to alcoholism. For some, it can be as addictive.

The only strategy that I know can work is to make a clean break and drop wheat products altogether. Just as an alcoholic cannot just satisfy him/herself with a drink or two a day, so a wheataholic can't be satified with just a couple of wheat crackers. It inevitably leads to the avalanche of wheat indulgences.

Perhaps we should form a new group: Wheataholics Anonymous. "Hi. My name is Greg and I'm a wheataholic."

The battle for asymptomatic disease

The heart disease revenue pie is shrinking. So is the "serving size" being shared by competing hospitals.

In other words, as more hospitals open heart programs, there is more competition for the same heart patient. Throw into the mix the drop in "acute" presentations of disease, probably due to the now widespread prescribing of statin drugs. When I first started cardiology practice 15 years ago, for instance, days and nights spent taking care of heart attacks coming through the emergency room was a common event. It still happens, but far less frequently. (I don't mean to suggest that the actual prevalence of coronary heart disease has decreased, just the acute, catastrophic version of it.)

Throw into this mix the results of the COURAGE Trial that has put a damper on the value of stents and angioplasty vs. "optimal" medical therapy in people with stable anginal symptoms, since there was little advantage of procedures. Though it has not stopped the practice, it has reduced the enthusiasm for procedures. Though data are hard to come by, I've heard talk of 10% or greater drops in total procedural volume over the past year.

It's not uncommon for hospitals to have overbuilt heart facilities in anticipation of continued growth of this--until recently--growth industry called heart disease. However, factors are converging that may provide a new profit opportunity for hospitals.

One such opportunity is CT coronary angiography. The usual scenario: Man or woman without symptoms is persuaded somehow--an ad, primary care physician, next door neighbor with a scary event, Dr. Mehmet Oz gushing about this sexy new technology on yet another Oprah episode--to undergo a CT coronary angiogram. A "severe" blockage is found, despite the lack of symptoms, and voila! A stent patient or bypass patient is created out of nothing! Do this repeatedly and systematically, and a hospital can regain its former high-procedural volume glory.

Heart scans, though I believe deeply in them and they are the basis for the Track Your Plaque prevention and reversal program, can also be used and abused this way. Asymptomatic person has a score 150. Concerned, they go to their physician who orders a nuclear stress test. An "inferior perfusion defect" is seen, presumably representing poor flow through the right coronary artery (but often just means that the diaphragm overlaps the heart muscle and yields this apparition, a "false positive" or misleading result). "But--wink--we've got to find out if there's a severe blockage, don't we? You don't want to end up in an early grave!"

Thus, the battle for new patients with asymptomatic disease is getting underway in earnest. The scramble for cardiologists to learn how to use CT coronary angiograms is proceeding at breakneck speed, with new training courses being offered nationwide several times and places every month. CT coronary angiography is a useful test, but it is also subject to enormous abuse. It also provides the ticket for the unscrupulous physician and the revenue-hungry hospital eager to expand its patient volume.

Many people believe that this cannot happen commonly in 2007, given scrutiny of practices, litigiousness, and the expectation of a moral sense in medicine. However, I've witnessed such incidents several times this month alone. If you need graphic proof of just how far this can go before action is taken, read Coronary, Stephen Klaidman's chilling tale of a cardiologist and cardiothoracic surgeon in small-town northern California who built an enormous heart center based on fabricated heart disease diagnoses. You'll also find their story in Shannon Brownlee's recently released Overtreated: Why Too Much Medicine Is Making Us Sicker and Poorer.





Of course, the Track Your Plaque program is meant principally for people without symptoms, also. But we are advocating that asymptomatic disease is a reason for prevention, not procedures. There's a difference.

By the way, the two practitioners who engineered the escapade detailed in these books, cardiologist Chae Hyun Moon and cardiac surgeon Fidel Realyvasquez, walked away with a monetary fine and suspension of their California medical licenses. It is likely that many people died because of their abusive practices, but the state struggled to make a sufficiently persuasive case for reasons that I still don't understand.
Plant-based or animal-based?

Plant-based or animal-based?

The ideal diet for heart and overall health restricts carbohydrate intake. I say this because carbohydrates:

Make you fat--Carbohydrates increase visceral fat, in particular.
Increase triglycerides
Reduce HDL
Increase small LDL particles
Increase glycation of LDL
Increase blood pressure
Increase c-reactive protein


Reducing carbohydrates reverses all the above.

But here's a common mistake many people make when following a low-carbohydrate diet: Converting to a low-carb, high-animal product diet.

It accounts for a breakfast of a 3-egg omelette with cheese and butter, 4 strips of bacon, 2 sausages, cream in coffee. Low-carb? It certainly is. But it is a purely high-animal product, no-plant-based meal.

I believe a strong argument can be made that a low-carbohydrate but plant-based diet with animal products as the side dish is a better way to go.

Consider that:

1) Animal products have little to no fiber, while plant-based products like spinach, avocado, and walnuts and other raw nuts have substantial quantities.

2) Plant products are a source of polyphenols and flavonoids--This encompasses a large universe of nutrients, from epigallocatechins in tea, polymeric procyanidins from cocoa, to hydroxytyrosol from olives, and anthocyanins from red wine and eggplant. The inflow of these beneficial compounds needs to be frequent and generous, not piddly amounts taken infrequently.

3) Vitamin C--While it's easy to obtain, the fact that you and I need to obtain vitamin C from frequent ingestion of plant sources suggests that humans were meant to eat lots of plants. While it may require a few months of deficiency before your teeth fall out, imagine what low-grade deficiency can do over a long period.

4) Vitamin K1--Rich in green vegetables, vitamin K1 is virtually absent in animal products.

5) Tocotrienols--I've been watching the data on this fascinating family of powerful oil-soluble antioxidants unfold for 20 years. Tocotrienols come only from plants. (I recently had an extended conversation with the brilliant biochemist, Dr. Barrie Tan, who is incredibly knowledgeable about tocotrienols, having developed several methods of extraction from plants, including his discovery of the highly concentrated source, annatto. Be sure to watch for future conversations about tocotrienols.)

6) Meats and dairy yield a net acid load--While plant foods are net basic. At the very least, this yields risk for osteoporosis, since acids are ultimately buffered by basic calcium salts from the bones. Tissue and blood pH is a tightly regulated system; veering off just a teensy-weensy bit from the normal pH of 7.4 to an acidic pH of, say, 7.2, leads to . . . death. In short, pH control is very important. A net acid challenge from animal products is a lot like drinking carbonated soda, a huge acid challenge that leads to osteoporosis and other health issues.

Conversely, a pure plant-based diet has its own set of problems. Eating a pure plant-based diet can lead to deficiencies of vitamin B12, omega-3 fatty acids (no, linolenic acid from flaxseed will NOT cut it), vitamin K2, carnitine, and coenzyme Q10.

So, rather than a breakfast of 3-egg omelet with bacon, sausage, cream, and cheese, how about a handful of pecans, some blueberries, and a 2-egg omelet made with basil-olive oil pesto? Or a spinach salad with walnuts, feta cheese, and lots of olive oil?

Comments (78) -

  • Jezwyn

    4/19/2010 12:02:43 AM |

    Really? You're trotting out the anti-carnivore rant again?
    Would you like to back up your claim that we somehow need fibre?
    Or polyphenols and flavonoids, and tocotrienols, in the absence of the oxidised situations they counter?
    Do you consider that Vitamin C is absorbed better when dietary glucose is minimised, as the two require the same uptake system and glucose will hog that system if it's present?
    If we need Vitamin K1, why didn't the Inuit suffer debilitating deficiencies?
    Why didn't they die young of bone fragility if their blood pH was truly so dangerously affected by acid load?

    It seems like your ideas here are based on unproven theories, not practical, clinical scientific demonstrations. If you'd like to link to studies demonstrating how individuals following a carnivorous diet (preferably one based on pastured, wild animals) suffer in the manner you've outlined, I'd love to read them.

    I really respect your blog and your efforts with helping your patients find lifestyles that work for them, but uninformed, unsupported posts like these are very disappointing.

  • John Phillip

    4/19/2010 1:10:41 AM |

    Absolutely correct, as always.  I switched from the Standard American Diet 5 years ago to a raw, plant based diet of dark green leafy vegetables, nuts, seeds, healthy fats and lean protein... no low carb, highly processed or over cooked meats. Totally eliminated wheat and corn based foods, and especially anything with HFCS. My blood sugar has dropped to below 100 1 and 2 hour post prandial and my A1C is 4.5.  Also, triglycerides are 50 and VAP shows mostly large LDL.  It really works, and I have seen it work for others who have followed the same program.  I write about it at my blog: myoptimalhealthresource.blogspot.com. Having read Dr. Davis for years, I would like to thank him for his spot on information!

  • Mike

    4/19/2010 1:29:43 AM |

    How about crushing a nice 10oz grass fed, organic, free range steak along with that salad, and then the whole debate of plant vs animal debate is moot?

  • Jenny

    4/19/2010 1:29:43 AM |

    It's a myth that eating a high animal protein low carb diet will cause bone loss. Studies do not support this.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16718399?dopt=Abstract

  • Anonymous

    4/19/2010 2:21:11 AM |

    to include more plant-based options in anyone's diet, this blog post from Chris Masterjohn seems to contradict your 6th point.

    So although I may arch an eyebrow at that point, I still agree that we shouldn't be consuming animal products ad libitum at the expense of plant-based options.

    Randy Watson

  • sr

    4/19/2010 3:57:51 AM |

    Do we really need fiber? I recall a chapter in Taubes' book saying that fiber doesn't do much for you if you're not constipated. And Vilhjalmur Stefansson went for 2 years without eating vegetables and had no problems with scurvy. Apparently anti-nutrients in carbs up our vitamin C requirements. If I recall correctly it uses the same GLUT transporters glucose does.

  • PRIDE MAFIA

    4/19/2010 4:23:35 AM |

    Lots of Carbs and  O-6 in nuts;this is good?

  • Alan

    4/19/2010 4:26:28 AM |

    No thanks.. I'll stick to the eggs meat and cheese and get plenty of Vit C in the process. You absolutely don't need plants in your diet, they aren't magic..

  • Gyan

    4/19/2010 5:35:30 AM |

    Vitamin-C can be supplied by raw green chillies.

    Is Vitamin-K1 required? I thought all vitamin-K1 does is to convert to K2.

    IS Fiber essential? if yes, then in what quantity?

  • Rick

    4/19/2010 5:58:42 AM |

    Dr Davis, Do the plant foods you list in your suggested breakfast menus at the end qualify as low carb?

  • David

    4/19/2010 6:40:59 AM |

    wow, I can just see the pro-animal fat nuts rushing to retort to this one... pardon the pun, but it's like red meat to a caged lion...

  • Ellen

    4/19/2010 9:52:51 AM |

    Actually, it wasn't UNTIL I ate more saturated fat (in the form of butter and coconut oil) that I saw a significant improvement in my HDL. Up until that point it was hovering around 50'ish. It shot up to 80 after incorporating the coconut oil. Unless you would consider coconut oil plant based even though it's mostly saturated fat?

    I sincerely attribute my improved HDL to saturated fat.

  • Torquemada

    4/19/2010 10:09:53 AM |

    but that... but that means we can't use low carb as an excuse to indulge in an orgy of gluttony with bacon, cheese mayo and steak.

  • Joachim

    4/19/2010 10:16:21 AM |

    Do you think eating a balanced plant/animal diet (low-carb) would be sufficient as an everyday diet/lifestyle?

    I've been doing a similar low-carb ketogenic diet the last 4-5 months and never felt better. I'm planning on doing the ketogenic diet again but my doctor and my girlfriend her dietician said that this diet is very bad for the liver and the cardiovascular system.

    The only drawback in my opinion is the lack of fruits in order to stay in keto.

    What's your take on this?

  • SamAbroad

    4/19/2010 11:14:39 AM |

    Oops, forgot to include the link to the paper:

    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/71/3/682

  • Vlado

    4/19/2010 11:21:02 AM |

    I am on a fish diet where 50% of my calories are coming from it(wild salmon) and have finally gained an ideal weight but i also eat some fruits and dark chocolate as well.There is a lot to be said about acidity factor which means that we are meant to eat both heavy and light foods to balance. The most important omission from diet would be grains , processed foods and vegetable oils.

  • LeonRover

    4/19/2010 11:47:37 AM |

    I thought that one of the observations that explorer Steffansson made on the health of his Inuit hosts was the lack of scurvy in the settlement.

    I also believe that in the absence of plant food,it has been concluded that meat can supply sufficient Vitamin C to prevent scurvy.

    It seems to me that to conclude " that humans were meant to eat lots of plants" is a conclusion too far.

    I suggest that the "or" in your should not be read as "either/or" but the "logical or" meaning " one or both".

  • Tom M

    4/19/2010 1:29:13 PM |

    Utterly ridiculous suggestion. Regardless of all the details that have been covered by previous posters, do you consider eating modern fruit and vegetables to be 'in tune' with the way we were designed to eat?

    A plant based diet is only possible through modern means, mainly transportation. I'm sure American olive oil is fantastic.

    I really don't think you've thought this through. Where are the calories? Do you drink a pint of walnut oil a day? Keeping carbohydrates and  animal sources down leaves you incredibly limited.

    Lastly, the idea of a 'side dish' of meat is absurd. Picture the scene: Hunter Tom in England kills an Auroch, begins gorging on the bountiful fat surrounding it's kidneys but then remembers: 'oh, better stop, I have boiled nettles awaiting'.

    Get real, kids don't like vegetables for a reason.

  • Anonymous

    4/19/2010 1:41:04 PM |

    With the Inuit argument you should consider whether they consumed the gut contents of the animals they ate.

  • Stargazey

    4/19/2010 2:34:46 PM |

    So by this reasoning we should avoid fruits because of their citric acid content?

  • Gretchen

    4/19/2010 2:36:12 PM |

    Too many people assume that anyone on a LC diet is pigging out out on huge amounts of fatty meats and cheese, with no vegetables. This is simply not true.

    It's like criticizing someone on a low-fat diet by saying they're eating a breakfast consisting of two bowls of cereal, 3 cups of skim milk, 5 pieces of toast, 2 tablespoons of jam, and 3 glasses of OJ.

    If I choose to eat bacon and eggs, I'd have one poached egg with a quarter of a pat of butter, and 1 slice of bacon. Maybe 2.

    In your point 1 you're comparing spinach with meat. Apples and oranges. You need to compare a complete animal- protein-including meal with a complete animal-protein-lacking meal.

    Re point No. 2: you can get vitamin C from uncooked meat. Does this mean we're meant to eat uncooked meat?

    I eat plenty of LC vegetables. I just don't eat an all-vegetable meal because I need protein to stabilize my blood sugar and hold me until the next meal.

    It's very difficult to do a vegetarian LC diet because we need protein, and the usual vegetarian protein sources like beans and rice are too carby. The only exception is tofu, and one cannot live on tofu alone.

  • zach

    4/19/2010 3:05:36 PM |

    I totally disagree. The points on vitamin K and vitamin C are startling- very much at odds with my layman's research. Certain organ meats are sky high in vitamin C. The need for C also goes down on a low sugar diet. Conversion from K1 to the all important K2 is very poor in humans eating a plant based diet. Where is K2 MK4 found? Pastured eggs and dairy, seafood, organ meats, etc.

  • Kevin

    4/19/2010 3:05:36 PM |

    Ah, the voice of reason.  How the hell did you get in here?  

    Stuffing oneself with 5000 calories of fat every day made no sense when I was reading Atkins 15 years ago.  I think we evolved to be able to eat healthily using animal and vegetable sources.  Our modern health problems don't stem from anything more than excesses of everything.  Although it's much harder to ingest excess vegetables compared with meat.  

    kevin

  • Christopher Robbins

    4/19/2010 3:31:42 PM |

    The major problem I see in this recommendation is that without calorically dense, starchy carbs and/or a lot more fat it would be hard to take in enough calories. I can deal with the fat. Even Mark Sisson champions the Big Ass Salad. And Stephan at wholehealthsource has started including more veggies & carbs. I do think animal protein/fat should make up the bulk of the diet though.

  • Ellen

    4/19/2010 4:26:19 PM |

    Yeah, fiber's over-rated. So is olive oil. Olive oil never did *anything* for my lipid profile. Olive oil makes you fat.

  • Anonymous

    4/19/2010 4:44:00 PM |

    People evolves, even to feed on pasta: http://www.visitlimonesulgarda.com/index.asp?menu=13.58

    Thinking we're the same animal that fed on mammoths 10k years ago and that we have to eat that makes little sense.

    Thinking we all would react the same to an inuit diet, having inuits evolved for such a long time to survive where they live eating where they eat, makes no sense.

    There are many people on the planet that live health and diets vary a lot.

    Dr Davids, and anyone else for that matter, can only give pointers, but everyone has to find its own way to health and not expect it to be the same for every one and to be one single real truth.

    We are 6 billion mutants with 6 billion different ideal diets

  • Christine

    4/19/2010 4:46:00 PM |

    Now you're talking my language, Dr. D. Great post! I welcome more like this one. This reader wants to know everything you know on the subject of low carb plants vs high fat meat/dairy.

  • Chris Kresser

    4/19/2010 4:50:51 PM |

    Jezwyn, you took the words right out of my mouth.

    Let's see some proof for these claims.  You'll be hard-pressed to find it.

    Tell the Masai and Inuit that you need a diet high in plant foods to be healthy.

  • Ned Kock

    4/19/2010 4:56:23 PM |

    I tend to believe that a diet with plant AND animal products is at least quasi-optimal, in part for evolutionary reasons:

    http://healthcorrelator.blogspot.com/2010/02/lucy-was-vegetarian-and-sapiens.html

    But on the acid-base blood balance argument, there are a number of other issues to consider:

    - Lack of activity leads to bone demineralization, regardless of what you eat. Astronauts start losing bone mass soon after the start living in zero-gravity.

    - Higher protein intake is associated with higher dietary calcium absorption.

    - Higher serum levels of vitamin D are associated with increased serum calcium levels and bone mineralization. In fact, hypervitaminosis D leads to elevated serum calcium levels, even with low dietary calcium intake.

    - The Inuit, on a traditional diet of animal meat and fat, have among the lowest (if not THE lowest) rates of tooth decay in the world - and bone mineralization is correlated with teeth health (although the correlation is not 1).

  • Alan S David

    4/19/2010 5:03:46 PM |

    You describe my diet to a "t". Low animal products, lots of plant based. Low carb.So at 61, I am told I look in my 40's, rarely ( if ever) suffer from any of the common afflictions, and enjoy robust health. Gotta be something right about all this.
    Confirmed heavy animal products in your diet lead to all sorts of problems. Minimize them and you minimize the problems.

  • Dave, RN

    4/19/2010 6:18:31 PM |

    Aw man, you lose credibility when you publish stuff like this...

  • Anonymous

    4/19/2010 6:42:45 PM |

    I've been on a low carb diet for years, but my health was never so improved as when I finally cut all plant matter out of my diet.

    -Amber

  • schubie

    4/19/2010 7:09:33 PM |

    Is it my imagination or were the previous recommendations when I started reading this blog many months ago more evidenced-based pointing to specific studies, and lately they've been much shorter and more like "statements" of "fact" without any supporting documentation?

    I don't get it.

    Smells like someone's trying to court a little controversy to generate some buzz.

  • Martin Levac

    4/19/2010 7:40:56 PM |

    It's easy to forget the Stefansson all meat trial. It was supposed to answer all those questions and doubts about various deficiencies such as vitamin C or calcium. And it did in my view. So why does doubt still persist to this day?

    If you believe that you should eat plants, then go ahead an eat them. But for a PSA, stick to the facts.

  • Martin Levac

    4/19/2010 8:01:39 PM |

    Sorry, in my haste to bring an argument in favor of an all meat diet, I forgot this argument against a plant based diet.

    Dr Davis, you say "I believe a strong argument can be made that a low-carbohydrate but plant-based diet with animal products as the side dish is a better way to go."

    It's already been weighed and measured and found to be lacking. In comes Ancel Keys and his semi-starvation experiment. It is exactly the kind of diet you propose: Low carb plant-based diet with animal products as the side dish. The result? Emaciation and neurosis. But that was a low calorie diet, you say. And probably lacked many nutrients, you say. Yes and yes. In comes the Biosphere 2 project which tried to fix one of those problems by administering the full RDA in vitamins and minerals every day. The result? Still emaciation and neurosis but admittedly to a lesser extent. Maybe it would work with ample calories?

    I don't think it's merely a question of calories at this point. I think it's partly a question of essential nutrients found only in animal flesh. Or a question of the depleting nature of a high plant diet. In other words, eating a high plant diet requires more of those essential nutrients, including total calories, found only in animal flesh.

  • Anonymous

    4/19/2010 8:16:03 PM |

    Ok. I just found your blog. Now I'm really confused. These two questions I'd like answered:

    -Where do you agree/disagree with Esselstyn?

    -What am I supposed to feed my three year old. He eats oatmeal and fruit for breakfast? (It's supposed to be healthy!)

  • Aaron

    4/19/2010 8:21:16 PM |

    Great post -- and to the vegetable naysayers -- there is more evidence to suggest than not that veggies are a healthy addition one's diet.

    A low carb, non-veggie diet is an experiment -- "if" it turns out to be healthy, more power to it.

    In the mean time -- I'm sticking with the decent epistemological studies out there that support the use of veggies/fruit the diet.

  • pmpctek

    4/19/2010 8:50:19 PM |

    @ John Phillip,

    I accomplished all those milestones, plus my HDL is over 70 mg/dl, all on a heavy carnivore dominant diet. John, you curiously did not divulge your HDL level.

    @ Jenny,

    Agreed.  Myths are hard to kill.  This acid/alkaline theory of disease is clearly a long standing one.  

    Absence of renal and lung disease, the homeostatic mechanisms controlling the pH of our blood are incredibly robust and tightly regulated.  Even if you have poor regulation of bicarbonate concentrations in blood (dialysis patient) or you suffer from chronic respiratory acidosis (hyperventilation) it's not as though eating more plant foods and restricting meat and cheese will at all reverse the acidic condition these more serious underlying disturbances cause.

    Even if meat and cheese yields a heavy acid load, all that may result is slightly more acidic urine.  There is no credible evidence that proves the act of intentionally alkalizing your own urine by dietary restrictions prevents or treats any disease, makes you feel better, or anything else.

  • Scott Miller

    4/19/2010 10:52:37 PM |

    The evolutionary evidence indicates our paleolithic (pre-agriculture) ancestors ate a LOT of meat. It doesn't make any sense that meat is unhealthy to humans.

    And, the present-day evidence supports meat consumption, too.

    In my case, I've been on a ~10% carb diet (mostly salad and vegetable carbs, no grains, very little fruits) for 5+ years. My blood stats are outrageously healthy (at 48 yrs old). HDL = 98, trigs 47, VLDL = 4, C-RP = 0.2. A1c = 4.8.  I can go on and on. I look 10 years younger than I am, my VO2 max is 52 (and I do not do any cardio), bodyfat = 10%, and I have no arterial plaque.

    Sadly, I do not like seafood, so I eat red meat almost exclusively, plus a lot of coconut oil.

    I also take over 40 supplements a day, including K2 (K1 is far less effective, not sure why you like it more, versus the animal version of K), tocotrienols (agree these are amazing), and numerous supps that reduce glycation, inflammation, and brain degeneration.

    BTW, natural fed meats are greatly superior, but even grain fed meats are adequate. And red meat is healthier than chicken meat due to having significantly lower levels of polyunsaturated fatty acids.

  • thania

    4/19/2010 11:15:16 PM |

    I think in something so important as "nutrition", it is not possible to adopt an "one tooth paste menthality". It depends a lot on the environment, climate and hence the gut flora composition of each individual and the digestion issues.

    During the past year of being part of the low-carb, paleo/primal community. I have observed for some people eating plants even in small quantities cause bloating , gut discomfort and eliminating them and a carnivoros diet has almost saved their lives , are much healthier . On the other hand some of the fittest members eat huge amont of animal food + huge amont of plant food.

    As a mediterranean I am very used to eat plant food , and had concerns on eating VLC food due to acid/alkaline balance so did a bone densitometry through my traumatologist, to repeat it after 2 years feb 2010, and comparing the results ; there is a 10% bone density loss! Ofcourse in these 2 years of VLC I did a lot of mistakes with too much processed meat and LC junk foods at the beginning, and was an evolution towards the grass fed meat and realfood. And also the fact that a part from walking , I am quite sedentary too!

    For me never felt right to leave out the plant food so drasticaly when I was doing VLC,I can enjoy a nice juicy beef steak , but with a side of salad or some steamed veg , the joy is even more and feels much better on my guts and the BG levels.

    So is the matter of each personal biochemistry process and many factors influencing it.

    It is a question of indivitual trial and error and listening to ones body needs. Then decide to be carnivoros, VLC, plant based, animal based , paleo or primal.

  • David

    4/20/2010 12:14:26 AM |

    Dr. Davis,

    I'd definitely be interested if you personally see results with any of your patients taken delta gold. I've been taking it a year now. I'm just trusting the small clinical trials, and hope they are legit.

  • Dr. William Davis

    4/20/2010 12:50:56 AM |

    Maasai are plant-eaters as well as meat-eaters.

    Comment from Ethnobotany of the Loita Maasai   about the great "meat-eating Maasai" tribal culture:


    "Animals are kept both for economic reasons
    and as a source of food. Milk from cows, especially
    fermented, is the main traditional food of the
    Maasai. Herbal soup is an important part of the
    diet for most people, men and women alike, but
    especially for the warrior age group. It is taken as
    a health food by ordinary people and as a drug by
    warriors. Meat is usually eaten during ceremonies.
    Wild food, especially fruits, tubers, resins and
    roots, are still important, particularly to women
    and those taking care of animals in the field."

    Full-text here:http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0012/001266/126660e.pdf

  • Dr. William Davis

    4/20/2010 12:52:24 AM |

    David--

    As we do not use tocotrienols in the program, we have no formal experience with it.

    However, having had an extended conversation with Dr. Barry Tan, I have to say it is worth looking at again, though my in-depth interest dates back nearly 20 years.

  • Chris Kresser

    4/20/2010 12:52:24 AM |

    The Masai may eat some animal foods, but they certainly aren't a "side dish" as you recommend.

  • Dr. William Davis

    4/20/2010 1:18:04 AM |

    Inuits eat lots of meats, but also eat plants.

    Dr. Weston Price on observing the eating habits of the Inuits during the first 20 years of the 20th century (before substantial Western influence on the Inuit diet took root):

    "The food of these Eskimos in their native state includes caribou, ground nuts which are gathered by mice and stored in caches, kelp which is gathered in season and stored for winter use, berries including cranberries which are preserved by freezing, blossoms of flowers preserved in seal oil, sorrel grass preserved in seal oil, and quantities of frozen fish. Another important food factor consists of the organs of the large animals of the sea, including certain layers of the skin of one of the species of whale, which was found to be very high in vitamin C."

    Organ meats and the fat of cold water creatures are indeed richer in vitamin C than muscle meat that we consume. When is the last time you ate muktuk?

  • Chris Kresser

    4/20/2010 1:19:22 AM |

    Oops, that should have read "The Masai may eat some plant foods, but they certainly aren't a side dish as you suggest."

  • Adolfo David

    4/20/2010 11:46:16 AM |

    I agree with a low carb diet based on animal and vegetal products, but I diagree with a so high fiber diet. See 'Fiber Menace' book, recommended by Weston Price Institute.

  • Helen

    4/20/2010 2:11:43 PM |

    Help for the nut-allergic, please.

  • Adolfo David

    4/20/2010 7:23:12 PM |

    Dr David and all, you have a interesting tocotrienols report in Nutraceutical Magazine september 2009, its about newest tocotrienol supplement formulation, in page 42

    http://www.nutraceuticalmag.com/NBT/pdf/2009/NBT_SO09.pdf

  • Maris

    4/21/2010 2:37:41 PM |

    You're right. so all in all, the key is to balance everything and place more emphasis in eating plant-based foods than animal products, specifically meat. I've tried a low-carb diet upon my doctor's reccomendation due to my hypertension, and although it's not easy at first(coz I'm used to eating lots of carbs), I got used to it after some time.

  • PJ

    4/22/2010 1:48:05 AM |

    You lost me on this one.

  • Marius

    4/22/2010 5:22:24 AM |

    This is getting ridiculous. Carbohydrates are evil and animal products are bad. Yum, I'm looking forward to my dinner of olive oil, carrots and five different types of nuts! The Auschwitz diet, it really works!

    We only became human because our ancestors included increasing amounts of meat and animal fat in their diet, which provided enough energy/EFAs for our brains to grow, which made us more intelligent and able to get even more meat and fat. Had they kept to their plant-based diet, we would still be swinging from the trees.

    That, and cooked tubers. As in, potatoes.

    What you are promoting on this site is anorexia and food phobias.I'm sure eating so little that your heart atrophies is super "heart healthy".

    The article seems to be supported by vegan myths and our modern cultural bias/squeamishness against meat more than scientifically established facts.

  • Cotton Yarn Manufacturer

    4/22/2010 7:55:47 AM |

    Other skins such as those from large animals such as horse and smaller animals such as ... Plant-based parchment: Parchment paper. thanks for sharing the information.

  • Mike Turco

    4/22/2010 4:13:11 PM |

    That is a really interesting line of thought, and plus, I'm an on-and-off reader of your blog and really respect your opinions. I've been on the meat and cheese mostly diet, along with the occasional veggies, nuts, berries, melons, etc. Its a good way to eat, for me, but hey its a boring diet and I've been wanting some change and variety for quite some time. I'm going to take a crack at switching things up for a while, in the way that you are suggesting, and see how that goes for me. I certainly don't see any harm in giving it a shot. I'll comment back at some time in the future, probably on another post, and let you know how it goes. Thanks again for your insight. -- Mike

  • Apolloswabbie

    4/23/2010 2:10:26 AM |

    Jezwyn - were you going to just borrow my thunder or steal it?

    Kidding - I could not have made those points as well or concisely as you did, thanks.

  • Apolloswabbie

    4/23/2010 2:15:42 AM |

    "Thinking we all would react the same to an inuit diet, having inuits evolved for such a long time to survive where they live eating where they eat, makes no sense."
    No, it doesn't, but when it actually happened, euros who lived/ate with the inuit reported more than once that they thrived.  This was tested in a hospital setting and confirmed.  In other words, we've more EVIDENCE that the Inuit diet was not beneficial because they were some genetic mutant - it was beneficial for humans in general.  

    Congnitive dissonance?  only if you've bought the unproved conjectures so rampant in the science of diet.

  • Anonymous

    4/25/2010 2:14:00 PM |

    I think the reaction to this article was predictable. If an atheist tells a person of faith that they are wasting their time with prayer and they should just get on with making the most of this life, very few would expect a capitulation by the religious. IMHO, diet is a lifestyle, like religion, and generally ruled by a hefty dose of emotion.  Having view points out there for people to make up their own minds is terrific.  But in the end we have to decide what we believe in.

    great work Dr. D. stay the course and the debate will be healthy..pun intended.

  • Kevin

    4/25/2010 6:08:13 PM |

    Anonymous said...
    "I think the reaction to this article was predictable. If an atheist tells a person of faith that they are wasting their time with prayer and they should just get on with making the most of this life, very few would expect a capitulation by the religious. IMHO, diet is a lifestyle, like religion, and generally ruled by a hefty dose of emotion. Having view points out there for people to make up their own minds is terrific. But in the end we have to decide what we believe in."

    I agree.  Unfortunately the emotion in any hotbutton issue leads the insecure to spew vitriole which makes it harder to stay connected to the dialogue.

    I'm hoping the doctor continues to espouse his viewpoint here.

  • DrStrange

    4/25/2010 8:24:23 PM |

    Just read thru all the posts and what a hilarious set of temper tantrums!  Since we live in modern times, we can easily supplement K2, D3, and omega 3 (I certainly do on plant based diet)(for omega 3 I take about 200 mg/day of plant source DHA drops).

    There are studies and there are studies and you have to actually read the details to see what they are measuring.  A little more fruits and veg than the crappy SAD, as in the study cited above, will have relatively little benefit though even at the amounts in the study there was a slight benefit.  Many Masai in fact were found to have plenty arteriosclerosis, just huge arteries from much more exercise than you or I will ever do.  Inuit skeletons do show severe osteoporosis and they tended to died young from hard living in a very tough and unforgiving environment.  Look around the rest of the world, aside from Inuit and Masai, all traditional cultures ate very small amounts of animal based foods and mostly plants.

    Personally, my blood sugars postprandial were running 175-200 for several hours. Switched to no animal fat and reduced fat and calories and they would still spike but stay up much shorter duration.  Currently I eat 100% plants, getting about 35% fat from unsalted, raw nuts and around 150-160 grams of carbs per day. Carbs and protein also coming from about 1 1/2 cups beans per day. Protein is about 15% of calories. My postprandial sugars stay under 110 and usually are under 100, even with a little fruit tossed in for dessert...  Everybody has to find their own way but you guys really need to read research more carefully.

  • DrStrange

    4/25/2010 10:29:42 PM |

    I had a doc tell me once he seldom if ever talked diet w/ patients as getting them to change was likely harder than getting them to change their religion!  I think that was cop-out as it is so important but a lot of truth there as well.

  • jandro

    4/27/2010 6:33:52 AM |

    Stefansson's meat only trial is not conclusive, X-rays were use to measure osteoporosis which only detects it once there has been a 30% reduction in bone mass. Obviously, you are not going to lose 30% of bone mass in a year. You can read more about it here: http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2010/03/paleo-diet-ph-does-it-matter-part-vii.html

    There are also frozen eskimo skeletons that show severe osteoporosis in women that are only 30 years of age.

    Eskimos were pushed to a really extreme environment in which we certainly did not evolve. Why anyone would use their diet as a model diet blows my mind.

    We evolved in East Africa with dry and wet seasons. Warm all year round. It allowed for plenty of vegetation to grow, and for plenty of animals to thrive.  Tribes living in that region have a diet high in both animal and plant products. It's low in fructose and most of the carbs are coming from tubers (yielding a net alkaline effect). Some nuts may be used as well but not to the extent it was used in this post.

  • Martin Levac

    4/27/2010 6:52:18 PM |

    Is there an association between meat consumption and calcium excretion?

    Is there an association between calcium excretion and bone loss?

    Is there an association between meat consumption and bone loss?

  • DrStrange

    4/28/2010 1:05:51 AM |

    Depending on what studies you read, there is an association w/ higher protein intake and bone loss, particularly for animal protein though I think plant too.  Amino acids are acids and need buffering.  If necessary, body will take alkaline minerals from bone to do the job.

  • Contemplationist

    4/28/2010 6:10:17 AM |

    Indeed what about the evolutionary argument that our ancestors survived mostly on animal meat (and its fat) ?

  • Bonnie

    5/2/2010 8:49:36 PM |

    You confuse me.

    Yesterday I ate 4 eggs, a pint of cream, 4 tablespoons of butter, 3 pieces of bacon (with all the rendered fat), about 6 oz of fatty beef steak, and a tin of sardines. I also ate 1 serving of sprouted pumpkin seeds, 1 cup of orange juice, 1 serving of brussels sprouts and 2 servings of spinach. From this I got 97% of DRIs for vitamins and 91% of minerals (I use CRON-O-Meter) in under 2500 calories.  48 grams of carbs.

    I'm not finding it at all difficult to exceed minimums for vitamins and minerals found mostly in plant foods while still eating a low-carb animal-based diet.

  • DrStrange

    5/4/2010 12:41:14 PM |

    "Yesterday I ate 4 eggs, a pint of cream, 4 tablespoons of butter, 3 pieces of bacon (with all the rendered fat), about 6 oz of fatty beef steak, and a tin of sardines."

    Bonnie, have you no concern about GMO diary (hormone forced milk production), nitrites/added hormones/stress hormones in bacon, GMO corn and petro chem and drug residue in beef, etc? Or are all these from organic, free-range animals fed their natural diets?

  • DrStrange

    5/4/2010 12:49:18 PM |

    "Indeed what about the evolutionary argument that our ancestors survived mostly on animal meat (and its fat)?"

    Contemplationist, read this

    http://diabetesupdate.blogspot.com/2009/09/lets-not-twist-history-to-support-our.html

    From looking at the diet of contemporary hunter gatherers, an argument could be made that the ancestral diet contained a great deal of plants, as well as insects, small birds, lizards, etc.  The meat eaten was not the bulk or even the majority source of calories and it was all very very lean.

  • Anonymous

    5/4/2010 2:50:16 PM |

    His advice makes sense for the vegans and vegetarians and low-fatters.  A huge step up for them and, most importantly, it's very 'foodie' and will appeal to them.

    The animal-based diet, on the other hand, appeals to people like me who are lazy and therefore used to eat the SAD diet.  Dinner: grilled hamburger topped with butter, sea salt and blue cheese on top of microwaved spinach.  Five ingredients.  Takes me five minutes.

    The answer to "Plant-based or animal-based?" is "YES!"  Ditch the grains and we can discuss everything else later.

  • DrStrange

    5/5/2010 1:42:01 AM |

    "The animal-based diet, on the other hand, appeals to people like me who are lazy and therefore used to eat the SAD diet. Dinner: grilled hamburger topped with butter, sea salt and blue cheese on top of microwaved spinach. Five ingredients. Takes me five minutes."

    Took me about 15 max to make mine:  Pre-cooked beans from fridge plus huge pile of chopped veg in pressure cooker.  Up to pressure and run for 60-90 seconds.  Bring pressure down fast, dump in bowl, add some nuts/seeds, and eat.

  • jpatti

    5/7/2010 6:59:53 AM |

    We evolved as neither herbivores nor carnivores, we're omnivores.

    It's always been normal for humans to eat BOTH plant and animal foods.

    I think everyone should eat at least half their food, by volume, as nonstarchy vegetables and low-sugar fruits - a wide variety.  

    That being said, meat, dairy and eggs, if raised on pasture, are darned healthy foods.

    I think raw milk, pastured eggs and pasture-raised butter are some of the healthiest foods one could possibly eat.  

    And besides being a health food in itself, butter makes getting your veggies in much more palatable, so... an artichoke dipped in butter ought to make all of us happy.  It certainly makes me happy.  ;)  

    Bacon, if from healthy animals and just smoked as opposed to being pumped full of nitrites and nitrates, is a fine food.  

    And if we all ate enough wild-caught shellfish, you'd be hard pressed to find all these iodine deficiencies you've been noticing.

    Animal foods are not a problem so much as the US system of mass-raising animal foods in an extremely unhealthy manner is a problem.  

    See http://www.eatwild.com to find good local sources of meat, dairy and eggs.  

    IMO, the "right" answer to breakfast can be the omelet, cooked in butter, stuffed to overflowing with fried peppers,  onions and mushrooms, with a bit of grated cheese over the top.  

    Eating plenty of vegetables does not preclude eating animal foods.

    And really, you'd be pretty hard pressed to do low carb as a vegan and get anything like sufficient protein and fat.  A vegetarian, yes, if you eat lots of eggs and dairy, but a vegan, no.  

    This isn't an either/or scenario, we do best eating both.

  • lightcan

    5/7/2010 2:39:10 PM |

    We could argue and fight for ever, Drstrange.
    Stress hormones? As if the animals that humans used to kill went down happy and peaceful listening to Vivaldi. Are your vegetables all organic? And they do not contain any toxins or anti-nutrients, or nitrates, they also provide you with all the vitamins and minerals you need? Good for you. Oh, no, you need to supplement. Just as well you can afford to do it.

  • DrStrange

    5/8/2010 7:20:11 PM |

    lightcan, not sure what you are going on about.  Really.  I was referring to the lifetime of tissues saturated in stress hormones of  industrial, factory raised animals which I have boycotted since the early 70's when I found out how they were being treated even then! And what does any of that have to do with supplements?  I take some because I am old and a bit paranoid but am quite sure I would be fine without (excepting B-12 and D).  As for organic, yes, probably 95% at least and since I don't buy meat which is expensive (especially free range/grass fed or wild caught which is only meat I would eat when eating it) but rather cheap organic beans instead, I can afford it.

    Not fighting or arguing really at all. I have no "beef" against someone eating meat if they feel the need.  But the research I have read really does show that a diet based on bacon and butter and blue cheese is basically a death sentence.

  • lightcan

    5/11/2010 10:42:55 AM |

    I don't think that a diet based on butter, meat, fish, eggs and some greens is unhealthy. You think the opposite. I'm sure you can find studies that you think support your stance. That's why I said that there is a lot of debate going on, even between specialists, and asking people if their meat is organic and stress hormones free doesn't help.
    Many people who care about their health (those that read these blogs, you and I included) are trying to do their best until the definitive answers come in. It's really hard for the majority of people to find quality food exactly because of those pervasive industrial food practices you talk about.
    All the best.

  • Anonymous

    10/30/2010 11:53:05 PM |

    I eat 100% plant foods and I feel the same as when I ate both plant and animal foods, except I feel much better stopping the toxic fish - way too much mercury for me. I think eating plant foods is much more convenient. I even eat soy, and don't understand why there's so much anti-soy stuff online.

  • mirckur

    2/8/2011 3:49:28 AM |

    That is very good comment you shared.Thank you so chat much that for you shared those things with us.Im wishing you chat sohbet to carry on with ur achivments.All the best .

  • Anonymous

    2/22/2011 4:44:33 PM |

    Seriously, I am sick and tired of hearing "Low carb"  you don't mean low carb, you mean low grains don't you because plants are carbs..

    Say what you mean, not what is popular

  • jpatti

    6/18/2011 10:08:09 PM |

    The biggest issue with these guidelines is NOT what they say to adults, but the fact that they're taught in school to children.  

    I was in-between the 7 food groups and the pyramid, went to school with the 4 food groups myself.  Meat, dairy, grains, fruits & veggies.

    People still think this way, have to remind hubby all the time that corn is a grain not a veggie.  Point being, we both "think" in the four food groups, and probably will our whole lives.  

    We learned this stuff with our alphabet and arithmetic.

    Anyways, the answer to the question is BOTH.  

    We are OMNIVORES.  Look at your teeth: you're not a herbivore, and you're not a carnivore.

    IMO, when you sit down to eat, half your plate should contain nonstarchy veggies.  In my opinion, NONSTARCHY vegetables is an entire food group.  If I'd designed the pyramid, that'd be at the bottom.  

    This is not a veggie-based diet though.  Cause veggies are low calorie, and diets are defined as high fat or high carb or whatever, based on the percentage of calories.  So... you can eat EITHER a high carb or high fat diet with half your plate covered with nonstarchy veggies, as it depends on what's on the other half of your plate.

    IMO, at least another quarter of your plate should be good protein - pastured beef, pork and poultry, free-range eggs, raw milk and yogurt and kefir and raw cheese, nuts and seeds, and (if you can tolerate the carbs) legumes.  I define "good" protein as ones that don't have bad fats with them - so largely saturated and monosaturated fats, with minimal PUFAs.

    The only other "rules" are... do eat broth and other sources of gelatin, do eat fermented foods, don't eat HFCS and don't eat PUFAs/trans fats.  

    The rest varies with the person - if bg issues, should stick to lower carb, etc, if not, eat french fries, whatever.

    Cause... if you eat half your food as nonstarchy veggies and a quarter as good sources of protein, and get some good broth and fermented foods in weekly, eschew HFCS and PUFAs, even if the REST of your diet consists of nothing but hot fudge sundaes you'd be coming out ahead of the VAST MAJORITY of people.  

    Course, you're BETTER off if you eat some starchy vegetables and fruit in this other 25%, but... veggies and protein sources with good fats... these contains the vast majority of the micronutrients any of us get.  

    This is a simple enough system to teach to a small child, which is what I think the guidelines should be aiming for.

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