Is health the absence of disease?

It sounds like a word game, but is health the absence of disease?

In other words, if you're not sick, you must be well. If you don't have cancer, heart disease (overtly, that is, like angina and heart attack), the flu, diarrhea, fevers, pain someplace . . . well then, you must be well.

Of course, most of us would disagree. You can be quite unhealthy yet have no overt, explicit disease. Yet this is the philosophy followed in conventional medicine when it comes to many aspects of health.

With regards to heart disease, if you have no chest pain or breathlessness, you don't have heart disease. "Oh, all right, we'll perform a stress test to be sure." Track Your Plaque followers, as well as former President Bill Clinton, recognize the enormous pitfalls of this approach: It fails to identify the vast majority of hidden heart disease. In heart disease, the apparent lack of overt, sympatomatic "disease" does NOT equal the true absence of disease, even life-threatening.

How about nutritional supplements? Vitamin D is a perfect example. Blood levels of vitamin D of 10 ng/ml--profound deficiency--are common, yet people feel fine. Beneath the surface, blood sugar rises because of poor insulin response, hidden inflammatory responses are magnified, HDL is lower and triglycerides are higher, coronary plaque grows at an accelerated rate, colon cancer activity is heightened . . . Though you feel fine.

Can an abnormal "endothelial response" be present while you feel fine? You bet it can. This refers to the abnormal constrictive behavior of arteries that is present in many people who have hidden coronary plaque or risk for coronary plaque, but is entirely beneath consciousness.

How about a triglyceride level of 200 mg/dl, fatally high from the Track Your Plaque experience? (We aim for <60 mg/dl.) This is typical in people who follow the diets endorsed by agencies like the American Heart Association and the American Diabetes Association, organizations too eager to keep the money flowing from corporate sponsors and thereby offer us their advice based more on politics and less on health. Triglyceride levels of 200 mg/dl cause no symptoms.


At so many levels, the absence of disease is NOT the same as health. Health is something that is expressed by, yes, feeling good, but it's also measured by so many other factors hidden beneath the surface. An annual physical is one lame effort to address this aspect of "health." But it needs to go farther, much farther.

Heart scan, lipoprotein testing, vitamin D blood level--those are the basic requirements to go beyond the shortsighted practice of the conventional approach in the world of heart disease.

Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs





Take a look at the list of ingredients in Cocoa Puffs: corn, sugar, corn syrup--all high glycemic index foods.

In other words, Cocoa Puffs is the physiologic equivalent of pure table sugar. Sure, it comes packaged with this wacky bird and the back of the box usually has fun games and offers. There's also the clever, fast-paced TV commercials to remind you of how fun Cocoa Puffs can be.


What is the actual consequence of a breakfast of a food like Cocoa Puffs in a cup of skim milk? That's easy: A big surge in insulin and blood sugar (from the corn and sugar), a drop in HDL cholesterol, surge in triglycerides (from the sugar and sugar-equivalents), increase in small LDL. Beyond this, you raise blood pressure and experience an insatiable increase in appetite. Then you get fat.

Obviously, none of this is desirable. Then why does the American Heart Association allow its Heart CheckMark endorsement on the package?

The Heart Association is trapped in 1982. Low-fat was in, saturated fat was the sole enemy of heart disease.

In 1982, the evils of small LDL, for instance, were unappreciated. LDL cholesterol was LDL cholesterol--all of it was bad and saturated fats seem to raise LDL. But the story has evolved enormously since then: LDL is not all the same. Small LDL is among the principal culprits in heart disease, the same small LDL hugely magnified by Cocoa Puffs and other similar products that fill 70% of supermarket shelves.

The American Heart Association needs to get with the times. The conversation on healthy diets has progressed considerably. Yet garbage foods that wreak havoc on health like Cocoa Puffs continue to be endorsed by an organization that still carries substantial clout with the American consumer.

My advice: Until they change their tune, anything that carries the endorsement of the American Heart Association should be eliminated from your diet.

Further validation of the Track Your Plaque 60:60:60 targets

The latest analysis of the data from Treat to New Targets (TNT) Trial shows that higher HDL cholesterol values are associated with reduced risk of heart attack, even in those with low LDL cholesterol values.

This counters the argument that some have made that, if a person takes a statin drug, raising HDL adds no additional benefit.

In the 9770-participant trial (randomized, double-blind), participants were given atorvastatin (Lipitor®) 10 mg or 80 mg per day. The study was sponsored by Pfizer, the manufacturer of Lipitor®. All participants were survivors of heart attacks, significant coronary disease by heart catheterization, or had previously undergone coronary angioplasty, stent placement, or bypass surgery—a high-risk group.

At the third month of enrollment, lipid (cholesterol panel) values were obtained and used as the basis for analysis. Participants on 80 mg atorvastatin achieved an average LDL cholesterol (Friedewald) of 77 mg/dl; participants taking 10 mg achieved a level of 101 mg/dl. Using these values, 8.7% of participants taking the higher dose of drug experienced an event, compared to 10.9% on the lower dose (which the investigators called a 22% relative reduction).

However, when the groups were re-analyzed by HDL cholesterol levels, higher HDLs remained predictive of less heart attack and other events, with the group having the highest HDL of =55 mg/dl experiencing 25% less events. Most interestingly, this effect was upheld even in participants with very low LDL cholesterols of <70 mg/dl.

I'm always a bit leery of drug company-sponsored studies, especially ones in which virtually all the participants tolerated a drug like Lipitor 80 mg, a dose in my experience that is very poorly tolerated for more than a few months. (Muscle aches are, in my experience, inevitable. I do not even recommend this dose.) In other words, the data are, in that respect, too good to believe.

Anyway, despite my reservations about these big money studies, there was nothing to gain from the HDL observation. (Of course, at one time, there would have been, given Pfizer's efforts to commercialize the now-kaput torcetrapib, scrapped because of excess mortality in phase II trials.)

Thankfully, there's other data that likewise suggest that the higher the HDL, the better. Yet more validation for the Track Your Plaque lipid targets of LDL 60 mg/dl, triglycerides 60 mg/dl or less, HDL 60 mg/dl or greater.



Copyright 2007 William Davis,MD

My sister called today . . .

My younger sister, aged 48 years (sorry, sis), called this morning.

"I'm going to my doctor today. What labs should I tell him to draw?" she asked.

"Why do you have to tell him? Can't you just ask him what he thinks should be drawn?"

"No," she said. "He just draws what I tell him to."


Maybe my sister is bossier than most. But I've heard this from many patients, as well. They go to their primary care physician and end up requesting this or that test. Sometimes their doctor complies. Often, they resist and refuse to do so.

I've heard many complaints from patients about doctors refusing to order even fairly benign tests like a vitamin D blood level or lipoproteins, even a C-reactive protein.

The number of these sorts of complaints seems to be growing. Ten years ago, it rarely happened. Today, I hear this nearly every day.

I think it is symptomatic of the growing discontent we all have with the status quo in healthcare. We are all expected to submit to the paternalistic, what-can-you-possibly-know mentality that still rules the day in medical offices. Only 40-50 years ago, if you wanted to look at a medical book, you'd have to ask the librarian for special permission so that they could make sure you weren't just a pervert trying to look at naked bodies. Today, every manner of medical and health information can be found online. Quite a contrast.

We are entering a new age, one in which people are far better informed, have surfed the internet and read media reports on health topics, have been exposed to drug company advertising, and know a fair amount about nutritional supplements. I think the system needs to change to accommodate this rapidly growing hyper-knowledgeable society.

In past, when a health problem turned up, you'd turn to your doctor first. I predict that,in the next few years, we will use the doctor as a place of last resort, the person we turn to when all else has failed, after you've exhausted your information sources.

I hope that the Track Your Plaque process will become one of the engines of change, an information resource that provides empowering tools that don't replace your doctor, but provide many information tools that are superior and may minimize your reliance on a health care provider.


Copyright 2007 William Davis, MD

Failure to diagnose

I picked up a hospital publication today. Featured prominently on the cover was a glossy photo of an attorney and his wife, both smiling.

The headline: "Atorney grateful for the lifesaving work of the ______ Hospital."

The story detailed the near-tragic story of how this 59-year old man was exercising at his local gym, only to lose consciousness after stepping off one of the exercise machines. Bystanders--hospital employees, as luck would have it--checked the man's pulse: none. They performed CPR. Ambulance called, blah blah blah.

Severe coronary disease discovered, extensive atherosclerotic plaque in all three coronary arteries, a 12-inch chest incision later and he and his wife are eternally grateful for the fine work done at X hospital. And so they should be for a job well done.

But wait a minute. After the urgent hospital dust settled, did anyone ask the one crucial question: Why wasn't this man's far-advanced heart disease identified? Why did he have to die and be resuscitated before his disease was recognized?

If this man was an indigent, homeless alcoholic . . . well, perhaps it would be no surprise. Health is neglected in this population. But a successful attorney?

Detecting hidden coronary atherosclerotic plaque simply isn't that tough. In Milwaukee, $199 would have diagnosed his disease unequivocally.

Unfortunately, we still have to set off drumrolls and crash cymbals to even begin to get the attention of the practicing physicians around us who continue to fail to diagnose hidden coronary disease. I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear if this man had a $4000 nuclear stress recently that was normal. Why would a nuclear stress test be normal? Easy: Wrong test.

The hidden message: The failure to diagnose paid somebody and some hospital over $100,000. So, why bother detecting disease before the payoff?

The profit motive in all this is all too obvious. The only other explanation is the enormous, repetitive, and systematic stupidity of the conventional approach to heart disease detection. You have the solution, at least for you and the people around you, in a CT heart scan and in the Track Your Plaque program.


Copyright 2007 William Davis, MD

Interview with world heart scan authority, Dr. John Rumberger












Dr. John Rumberger has, from its start, been a good friend of the Track Your Plaque program.

We are very proud to have his friendship. Dr. Rumberger is not only a world-renowned scientist in the world of cardiac imaging and heart scanning, but also a humanitarian and gentleman. From the very first day I met Dr. Rumberger many years ago, when he answered my many silly and naive questions about heart scans, I came to appreciate his deep and genuine interest in improving the world of heart disease detection.

I tracked Dr. Rumberger down from his busy schedule, now on a new project at the Princeton Longevity Center in Princeton, New Jersey.




TYP: Dr. Rumberger, we understand that your career has taken a new direction. Can you tell us about your current project?

Dr. Rumberger: I have not really taken a new direction, but further expanded on my opportunities.

I remain Medical Director of PrevaHealth Wellness Diagnostic Center (formerly Healthwise) in Columbus, Ohio. At that center, we see patients referred by their doctors for further refinement in cardiac risk stratification using heart and body scanning. However, by only doing scans alone there are limited opportunities for me to react in a meaningful way with the individual patients and thus I miss opportunities to do direct one-on-one teaching.

Currently, I spend most of my time in Princeton, NJ as Director of Cardiac Imaging for the Princeton Longevity Center. At the PLC, we perform comprehensive medical examinations along with screening CT scans, blood work, fitness and diet consultation to affect a more thorough one-on-one experience. Each patient then receives a comprehensive de-briefing.

In addition, since I have been involved with cardiac CT for now nearly 24 years, the PLC also affords me an opportunity to develop a CT coronary angiography training program for cardiologists and radiologists (www.cardiaccta.us). Together, these new efforts are merely an extension of my interests in prevention, patient care, and teaching.



TYP: Based on your book, The Way Diet, we understand that you advocate gravitating away from processed foods and incorporating more nuts, monounsaturated oils, lean proteins like fish, and a reduction in processed carbohydrates. You’ve also been a proponent of the Mediterranean diet that demonstrated a dramatic reduction in cardiovascular events in the Lyon Heart Study.

Has your philosophy or practice regarding nutritional strategies evolved or changed in any way since your book was published?

Dr. Rumberger: No, the strategies put forward in The Way Diet have, if anything, been reinforced by further and further research in selecting foods that are naturally high in anti-oxidants with lean sources of protein and reduced intake of processed sugar-containing preparations. The book, however, is what I call a ‘philosophy’ book which looks at three major aspects: proper diet, adequate exercise, and stress management. I also include some recipes which follow the dietary plans, but are done using ingredients that are commonly found in the average home.



TYP: We regard you as the source of much of the wisdom in heart scanning as the basis for early heart disease detection. Much of the original and subsequent scientific data, in fact, bears your name. Can you touch on some of the new directions your research has taken over the past couple of years?

Dr. Rumberger: We have come a long way from the beginning and there is a long way to go to get this incorporated into routine preventive care in the United States.

The most recent research has provided not so much more information as continuing to reinforce the old research. As I always say: if your research continues to show the same thing, then maybe there is a clear pattern here! The biggest challenge is getting this message into the mainstream and also trying to get cardiologists (and internists and, in fact, the general public) away from ‘stenosis’ detection to define the real cause of heart attacks (plaque) and into ‘plaque detection.’ This is where basic heart scanning has the greatest potential to reduce the expanding burden of heart disease.

You may be aware of our SHAPE initiave in which an international group of cardiologists and scientists have advocated getting a heart scan FIRST and then, if abnormal, checking your cholesterol values; rather than using cholesterol (which is valuable, but highly variable in predictive power) to determine who needs medications or further testing. The heart scan can define the current level of plaque and THEN you can determine what to do about it. [See the Track Your Plaque report on the release of the Shape Guidelines at SHAPE Guidelines]



TYP: We understand that you are performing CT coronary angiography in your center. What are your thoughts on the role of CTA in 1) screening for coronary disease, and 2) its role in the diagnostic process?

Dr. Rumberger: CT coronary angiography (CTA) is an incredible method to really define the extent of disease, beyond just coronary calcium. Its role is most appropriate in ruling OUT a significant ‘stenosis’ while really defining the absence or presence (and thus ‘how much’) of plaque. It is the ultimate ‘plaque detector’. CTA is best used in patients who have some symptoms, but in whom the clinician feels may NOT have clear cardiac chest pain. By risk-stratifying using CTA, we also gain information about heart size, heart function, whether there is prior heart damage, as well as other important information. This then becomes a very universal means to risk-stratifying individuals.



TYP: Thanks for your wonderful insights, Dr. Rumberger! We look forward to hearing about your future projects and research directions.





About John Rumberger, PhD, MD:

Dr. Rumberger is among the world's leading authorities on cardiac and vascular imaging using EBT and CT Scanning. Dr. Rumberger was among the first to pioneer the use of new CT technologies for heart scanning. He currently serves as Director of Cardiac Imaging at the Princeton Longevity Center, Princeton, NJ.

Dr. Rumberger is formerly Professor of Medicine and Consultant in the Department of Cardiovascular Diseases at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. Dr. Rumberger received his doctorate in engineering from The Ohio State University in 1976 and graduated from the University of Miami School of Medicine in 1978.

During his over 20 year career as a clinician, educator, and researcher, Dr. Rumberger has published nearly 500 scientific papers and book chapters. He has lectured worldwide on EBT, early heart disease diagnosis, and wellness. He is an Established Investigator of the American Heart Association and a Founding Member of the International Society of Atherosclerosis Imaging. Dr Rumberger is an active Reviewer for the Journal of the American Medical Association, Archives of Internal Medicine, and the New England Journal of Medicine.

Summer in Wisconsin

It's been a glorious summer in Wisconsin.

For weeks straight, we've enjoyed bright, sunny days with temperatures in the 70s and 80s. Even now, in late September, our windows are wide open and the days are warm and sunny. Yesterday, it was 84 degrees. Yes, it did rain for a stretch of about 10 days in August, but for the most part it has been a wonderfully sunny summer.

So it struck Andy as a big surprise when we checked his 25-OH-vitamin D3 blood level: 15 ng/ml--severe deficiency.

"I don't get it. I'm outside almost every day. Look at me! How do you think I got this tan?"

Indeed, Andy sported a nice dark tan over exposed areas.

In fact, Andy was among the dozen or so people this month with deficiencies of this magnitude.

Deficiency is not the exception; it is the rule. Of course, if Andy's blood level is at the level of severe deficiency in September, he will only trend lower over the next few weeks and months. He would likely have shown vitamin D blood levels of <10 ng/ml by January--profound deficiency.

With deficiency of this severity, Andy has been exposing himself to risk for prostate and colon cancer, diabetes and metabolic syndrome, low HDL, higher triglycerides, higher blood sugars, higher C-reactive protein, osteoporosis, arthritis . . .

Correcting the deficiency is easy. But, as you can see, getting sun is not always the answer. Even with an active, outdoor lifestyle and a tan, Andy still remained significantly deficient. Oral replacement with vitamin D3, or cholecalciferol, is an absolute necessity.

Wacky statin effects

In general, I try to exhaust possibilities before resorting to the statin drugs. But we still do use them, both in general practice and the Track Your Plaque program.

There are indeed a number of ways to reduce, minimize, or eliminate the need for these drugs. For instance, if your LDL is 150 mg/dl but comprised of 90% small particles, then a reduction in wheat and other high-glycemic index foods, weight loss, fish oil, and niacin can yield big drops in LDL.

But sometimes we need them. Say LDL is 225 mg/dl and is a mix of large and small. Exercise, weight loss, niacin, oat bran, ground flaxseed, Benecol, etc. and LDL: 198 mg/dl. Alright, that's when statins may be unavoidable. There's also many people who are not as motivated as all of us trying to reverse heart disease. Some just want the easy way out. Statins do indeed provide that option in some people.

So in truth, we end up using these drugs fairly regularly. How common are muscle aches and fatigue? In my experience, they are universal . If taken long enough, or if high doses are used, muscle complaints are inevitable. Most of the time, thankfully, they're modest and often relieved with a change in drug or with coenzyme Q10 supplementation.












But there's more to statin side effects than muscle aches. Among the wacky effects that I have witnessed with statin drugs:

--Insomnia-especially with simvastatin (Zocor and Vytorin). Insomnia can be quite severe, in fact, with difficulty sleeping more than 3-4 hours a night.

--Bone aches--I don't know why this happens, unless it's somehow related to muscle aches. I've seen this with all the statins, but more commonly with Crestor.

--Memory impairment--a la Dr. Duane Graveline's wacky book, Lipitor: Thief of Memory. I've seen this with Lipitor, though it's uncommon, and less commonly with simvastatin (Zocor, Vytorin).

--Diarrhea--More common with Zetia and Vytorin (which contains Zetia), because of the inhibition of bile acid reabsorption.

--Migraine headaches--This I certainly do not understand, but the cause-effect relationship is undoubtedly true in an occasional person.

--Low libido--In men more than women, though it may be more due to men being more willing to admit to it.

--Increased appetite--Rare, though I've seen dramatic instances.

--Tinnitus--Ringing in the ears. I've only seen it with Lipitor and Zocor.


In their defense (and in general I am no defender of the drug manufacturers), most people do fine with statin drugs, though the majority do eventually require coenzyme Q10 in my experience. By the way, coenzyme Q10 can be an indispensable aid to help tolerate statin agents.

I'd love to hear about your wacky experiences.

Track Your Plaque goes global

I don't use this space to toot my horn (at least I don't too often), but we were looking at the listings of our viewers and members. I was surprised to learn that we now have Track Your Plaque followers in 15 different countries around the world!

We have members from Europe including England, Ireland, Switzerland, Belgium, and the Czech Republic. We have members from as far away as South Africa, Australia, India, Singapore, Thailand, and China.

I see the entire Track Your Plaque process as a grand experiment. Never before in history has a system of health been delivered via a communication medium like the web. The internet provides more interactivity than television, it's more fluid than a book, it's more dynamic and evolves more rapidly than a face-to-face interaction. While we cannot be hands-on over the internet, we can still deliver all the crucial information and, hopefully, the knowledge on how to get it done.



Track Your Plaque is part of an even grander experiment: The movement to shift control over health away from the medical system, doctors, and hospitals and back to individuals. When you think about it, the idea that "health" (more acurately sickness) should be managed by people and institutions (e.g., hospitals and insurance companies) outside of the individual is a 20th century concept. I predict that this notion will also become a relic of the 20th century.

Someday, we will look back and laugh at the folly of the 20th century style of paternalistic health care. Perhaps it was a necessary step in the sequence to transform health to a better system that returns control to the individual. But it's clearly time for a change.

Track Your Plaque is an example of the extraordinary power that can be taken by a lone individual with only minimal assistance of a health care provider. I see Track Your Plaque members who understand heart disease (at least the coronary disease aspect) far better than 95% of my cardiology colleagues, 100% of my internal medicine and family practice colleagues. Physicians maintain a role, but their role has shrunk and receded. They should be facilitators of success in health, educators, a resource to turn to when we need help. It's not that way today. It will be in 50 years.

But, right now, we can get started on this wonderfully self-empowering--liberating-- movement by participating in this global experiment known as Track Your Plaque, the program with the goofy name that has the potential to usurp and unravel this enormous institutionalized system of health care the world has created.

Go to your corners

There's a heated debate being waged on the Heart Hawk Blog

Dr. Melissa Walton-Shirley authored an editorial entitled It Should Be the Right of All Americans to Have Primary Percutaneous-Based Intervention for Acute Coronary Syndrome .

Heart Hawk's response:

Dr. Walton-Shirley feels the best use of time, talent, and money is to build more cath labs and train more people in how to use them so that IF you have a heart attack, you stand a better chance of being pulled back from the brink of death. Unfortunately, you have to first let people get so sick that they are about to die. My position is to use those same resources to prevent such disasters from happening in the first place. Take your pick. You cannot spend the money twice.

I am no stranger to "direct angioplasty," meaning performing immediate coronary angioplasty (with stenting) for heart attack. Since 1990, I have personally performed hundreds, perhaps over a thousand of these procedures, particularly when I was younger and my practice was procedurally-focused. But, after a few years, I quickly recognized the futility of this approach. Yes, you might have aborted a heart attack ,perhaps even saved a life at the brink of death. But wouldn't it have been better to have prevented the entire episode in the first place?

In my mind, putting a cath lab on every corner, as Dr. Walton-Shirley suggests, is like having a fire truck on every street to prevent a house from burning down. It's an enormously expensive proposition that provides no incentive to prevent fires. Why not spend the money on preventing the fires?

Expanding access to cath lab procedures is putting the fox in the henhouse. Procedures yield money--big money--for hospitals and cardiologists. Guess what happens when you build facilities that exceed the need? Yes--the number of procedures grows, whether or not they were needed.

In my view, Dr. Shirley-Walton's opinions are symptomatic of the profit-driven, procedurally-focused quick-fixes that divert money that would be far better spent on effective dissemination of preventive practices.
Why small LDL particles are the #1 cause of heart disease in the US

Why small LDL particles are the #1 cause of heart disease in the US

Ask your doctor: What is the #1 cause of heart disease in the US?

Let's put aside smoking, since it is an eminently modifiable risk and none of those crazies read this blog anyway. What will your doctor say? Most like he or she will respond:

High cholesterol or high LDL cholesterol

Too much saturated fat

Obesity

Pfizer, Merck, AstraZeneca and their kind would be overjoyed to know that they can add your doctor to their eager following.

I'd tell you something different. I would tell you that small LDL particles are, by far and away, the #1 cause for heart disease. I base this claim on several observations:

--Having run over 10,000 lipoprotein panels (mostly NMR) over the past 15 years, it is a rare person who does not have a moderate, if not severe, excess of small LDL particles. 50%, 70%, even 90% or more small LDL particles are not rare. Over the course of a year, the only people who show no small LDL particles are slender, athletic, pre-menopausal females.

--In studies in which lipoproteins have been quantified in people with coronary disease, small LDL particles dominate, just as they do in my office. Here's a 2006 review.

--Small LDL is largely the province of people who consume carbohydrates, such as the American population instructed to "cut fat and eat more healthy whole grains." Conventional diet advice has therefore triggered an expllosion in small LDL particles.

--When fasting triglycerides exceed 60 mg/dl, small LDL particles increase as a proportion of total LDL particles. This includes the majority of the US population. (This ignores postprandial, or after-eating, triglycerides, which also contribute to small LDL formation.)

If you were to read the data, however, you might conclude that small LDL affects a minority of people. This is because in most studies small LDL categorize it as either "pattern B," meaning exceeding some arbitrary threshold of percentage of small LDL particles, versus "pattern A," meaning falling below that same arbitrary threshold.

Problem: There is no consensus on what percentage of small LDL particles should mark the cutoff between pattern A vs. pattern B. In many studies, for instance, people with 50% small LDL particles are called "pattern A."

If, instead, we were to set the bar lower to identify this highly atherogenic (atherosclerotic plaque-causing) particle at, say, 20-30% of total, then the number or percentage of people with "pattern B" small LDL particles would go much higher.

I see this play out in my office and in the online program, Track Your Plaque, every day: At the start eating a low-fat, grain-filled diet with lots of visceral fat ("wheat belly") to start, they add back fat and cut out all wheat and limit carbohydrates. Small LDL particles plummet

Comments (77) -

  • Bill

    9/15/2011 1:13:26 PM |

    But is there any real evidence that small LDL is a *cause* of heart disease? Correlation alone isn't sufficient, of course, and Chris Masterjohn has said that even the correlation largely disappears when traditional "risk factors" such as HDL, LDL, and triglycerides are added to the model.

    I ask in part because I am about to arm wrestle with my primary care doctor about my recent cholesterol panel:

    Total: 382
    HDL: 157
    LDL: 217 (calculated)
    Triglycerides: 39

    He's upset about the LDL, of course, especially since it's progressively risen over time (coinciding with dietary changes pretty compatible with TYP and including quite a bit of sat fat after years as a low-fat vegetarian). Naturally, he wants me to reduce my fat consumption and retest in four months, and I'm sure a statin drug recommendation will follow just as the sunset inevitably follows the sunrise.

    I am thinking of asking for a full lipoprotein panel, with the expectation that it will calm him down by showing 1) much lower real, measured LDL with my rock bottom triglycerides and 2) strong Pattern A LDL with my sky high HDL and low triglycerides.

    But I'm not certain if I can really make a convincing empirical case to him that Pattern A is benign with a high LDL. (I'm also hesitating after hearing Chris Masterjohn say that LDL particle size measurements are hugely dependent on the type of assay used and that as a result it's not clear what, biologically, any given result means until these methodological discrepancies are sorted out.)

  • Peter Silverman

    9/15/2011 2:41:59 PM |

    The article you cite says the number of LDL particles may be more important than the size.  Is that your experience?

  • Howard

    9/15/2011 3:02:31 PM |

    @Bill : Chris Masterjohn also mentioned in a recent podcast that the current measurement technology for LDL particle size is just not sufficiently accurate to be useful.

  • chuck

    9/15/2011 3:48:18 PM |

    what is your feeling on oxidized ldl?

  • chuck

    9/15/2011 3:52:16 PM |

    @howard
    yes, based on the hour to hour, day to day, week to week, and month to month natural fluctuations of lipids in the blood it is difficult to make any real judgements about cholesterol readings without doing multiple panels over a period of time.  the whole medical community seems to be screwed up in this respect.

  • Kathy

    9/15/2011 4:13:20 PM |

    I have no idea what Dr. Davis' response will be, but if you're interested in getting an NMR profile done on your own dime (and if there is a convenient location near you), check out directlabs.com for their September special.  An NMR profile will only set you back $79 (reg $127).  I've been waiting for this "sale" and am getting it done to show my own doctor.  Your health is ultimately in your hands - keep up the good fight!
    Best,
    Kathy

  • edward white

    9/15/2011 5:02:18 PM |

    Dr D,
    I totally agree small LDL is driven by excess carbohydrate intake and postprandial
    triglycerides. However there is a substantial subset of people whose small LDL
    is genetically driven. I believe you are aware of this phenomena.
    Please let these folks know what their options are to address this important issue!
    There can be a good deal of frustration when carbs and triglycerides are addressed but
    with little lowering of small LDL.
    Please help this substantial number of people out by outlining their options...
    Gib

  • Unix-Jedi

    9/15/2011 5:22:13 PM |

    Thanks for that information, Kathy.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 5:57:26 PM |

    It ain't good,  just ask Wikipedia.   From the Wiki page re 'Chronic endothelial injury hypothesis':
    "Once LDL accumulates in the subendothelial space, it tends to become modified or oxidized.[5] This oxidized LDL plays several key roles in furthering the course of the inflammatory process. It is chemotactic to monocytes; oxidized LDL causes endothelial cells to secrete molecules that cause monocytes to penetrate between the endothelial cells and accumulate in the intima.[6]

    Oxidized LDL promotes death of endothelial cells by augmenting apoptosis. Also, through the activation of collagenases, ox-LDL contributes to a process which may lead to the rupture of the fibrous plaque[7] Oxidized LDL decreases the availability of endothelial nitric oxide (NO), which, in turn, increases the adhesion of monocytes to the endothelium.[8] Moreover, NO is involved in paracrine signalling between the endothelium and the smooth muscle that maintains vascular tone; without it, the muscle will not relax, and the blood vessel remains constricted. Thus, oxidized LDL also contributes to the hypertension often seen with atherosclerosis."

  • Bob

    9/15/2011 6:12:21 PM |

    Test reply

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 6:13:54 PM |

    Yes, French cardiologist Guy-Andre Pelouze MD. at the recent Ancestral Health Symposium said in his presentation "Paleodiet and atheroma: A Cardiovascular Surgeon’s Perspective" that:

    1. Native (the reduced form of) LDL cholesterol is NOT atherogenic, only the oxidized form leads to atheroma, atherogenesis & arterial plaque formation.

    2. Without oxidized cholesterol it's very difficult to have arterial plaque formation

    3. Anti-oxidants are ineffective in preventing atheroma.

    4. SDLDL easily enter the subendothelial space because SDLDL are less than 25 nm in diameter and the subendothelial space is 26 nm.

    5. Subendothelial space in humans is very different in humans than other mammals due to the large amount of smooth muscle in the arterial media below the the intima layer.

    And there's much more.  To see a video of Dr. Pelouze's presentation hosted on the Ancestral Health page at Vimeo just google 'vimeo, paleodiet and atheroma', then scroll to video number 33 in the right side box.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 6:42:38 PM |

    Do you REALLY believe that? We have the ability to measure the distance between the earth and the moon almost down to the millimeter, and certainly down to the centimeter. We have the ability to measure individual atoms with electron and other types of microscopy used in materials engineering and computer chip manufacturing.  Medical, biochemical & physiological textbooks are full of descriptions of the sizes of white and red blood cells, bacteria and viruses, etc. ad infinitum.  Do you REALLY think we lack the ability to measure SDLDL?  Don't be so ready to believe something just because somebody says something about it.  Use your own brain, put together everything you know and can learn on your own and connect ALL the dots before drawing a conclusion.  

    Furthermore, what's the point of a statement like that?  Should we just give up measuring and trying to understand how SDLDL causes atheroma just because ONE guy says we can't measure them to his degree of satisfaction?  Should we just give up worrying about what we eat, and what we are being sold as foods that are arbitrarily declared to be safe to eat by some anonymous bureaucrat at the FDA?  Should we just ignore the ever increasing incidence rates of cancer, heart disease and atherosclerosis that by all applications of observation and simple logic are known to be entirely due to the modern industrial foods diet in every society and the peoples that subsist on them?  

    I don't think so.  Homey don't play that anymore, at least this one doesn't.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 6:55:16 PM |

    @Bill,  Google and see this study: 'Detection of low density lipoprotein particle fusion by proton nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy'.    
    "Abstract: Recent evidence suggests that fusion of low density lipoprotein (LDL) particles is a key process in the initial accumulation of lipid in the arterial intima. In order to gain a better understanding of this early event in the development of atherosclerosis, it would thus be necessary to characterize the process of LDL fusion in detail. Such studies, however, pose severe methodological difficulties, such as differentiation of particle fusion from aggregation. In this paper we describe the use of novel methodology, based on 1H NMR spectroscopy, to study lipoprotein particle fusion."

  • Don

    9/15/2011 7:24:04 PM |

    Bill,
    You have no worry since your triglycerides are quite low and therefore your LDL particles are of healthy size.  Your correctly calculated LDL is only 161 using the Iranian formula (used if triglycerides low).  See LDL calculator here:
    http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~geoff36/LDL_mg.htm

    And never use statins, just cut carbs.
    Don

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 7:34:54 PM |

    "About 80% of cholesterol is composed of fats and oils (Current Atherosclerosis Reports 2004). The
    majority of an arterial clog, 55%, comes from defective cooking oils, containing mainly damaged omega 6. Most of us unknowingly purchase these oils in the cooking oil section of the supermarket. These are the oils we fry with and the oils added to most packaged foods; both fresh and frozen.

    Here’s another shocker. It’s not the saturated fat —it’s the adulterated omega-6 from food processing that clogs arteries! Contrary to what we have heard for decades, it is not the saturated fat you eat that clogs your arteries! How do we know this? A 1994 Lancet article reported investigating the components of arterial plaques. In an aortic artery clog, they found that there are over ten different compounds in arterial plaque, but NO saturated fat. This means the bacon, eggs, cheese, steak, whipped cream, etc. isn’t the reason for a clogged artery. These natural saturated fats are actually good for you. You need them for body structure.

    With the consumption and transport of defective processed oils, LDL cholesterol acts like a “poison delivery system,” bringing deadly transfats and other ruined oils  into the cells. It is primarily the oxidized (adulterated) omega-6 that clogs the arteries, NOT saturated fat!"  

    For more just google 'Brian Peskin saturated fat' and read the day away to your heart's content.

  • Jack Kronk

    9/15/2011 8:37:50 PM |

    "just because somebody says something about it. Use your own brain, put together everything you know and can learn on your own and connect ALL the dots before drawing a conclusion. "

    lol. you must not know who CMast is.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 10:27:09 PM |

    Yeah, I do, and that's why I said that.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:40:13 AM |

    Hi, Gib--

    The strategies that reduce small LDL are the same whether it's genetically-driven or acquired. However, when (presumptively) genetically-driven, it's just harder and requires a more meticulous effort.

    We are now seeing more and more people achieve zero or near-zero small LDL with strict carb reduction. The big exception is apo E4 people, who can still struggle because of the peculiar physiologic effects of this pattern.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:42:32 AM |

    Big issue. Note that the real culprit in causing plaque may be glycated oxidized LDL.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:43:51 AM |

    Hi, Peter--

    No, I think that is wrong. It might be correct if small LDL is regarded in a dichotomous way, i.e., pattern A vs. pattern B. But, when viewed quantitatively, I believe the real culprit is quantity of small LDL.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:46:58 AM |

    No question: The various lipoprotein testing companies need to talk and standardize their definitions. But this does not invalidate the concepts.

    Chris Masterjohn is a very bright guy. But on this I disagree. I believe it is wrong to assume that triglycerides and HDL behave in perfect tandem with small LDL. While they do indeed correlate, they do not correlate perfectly and demonstrate independent behavior depending on postprandial phenomena and genetic factors like apo E and apo C.

  • Joyce

    9/16/2011 5:17:54 PM |

    This has nothing to do with LDL, but I don't know where else to ask this, so I'll dive right in.

    I am reading and enjoying your book Wheat Belly, but don't understand why you lump chia seed in with other non-gluten grains to avoid or minimize. .  In my mind it is closer to flax.  Chia is truly an oil-seed and not a grain according to Dr. Coates, the "father" of chia seed research.  I have used it generously, and feel it aids in weight loss.  Chia seed is high in protein and fiber and low in carbs.  Why are you telling us to avoid or limit it?  I feel it is healthier than flax even.

    Please, can you clarify your stance on chia?  I was very disappointed to read that in your book.  Other than that, I really enjoyed Wheat Belly, having avoided gluten for a few years now.

  • Joyce

    9/16/2011 5:33:17 PM |

    P.S.  According to calorieking.com website, 1 oz. raw chia contains 0 carbs and 1 oz. dried chia contains only 1 gram of useable carb.

  • Adriana

    9/17/2011 10:16:37 AM |

    Not everybody who has good HDL, good TG and eats a low carb paleo diet will have low small particle LDL numbers which is why an NMR LipoProfile is important.  People with gut issues, yeast issues,  H. Pylori or an otherwise compromised liver can have unhealthy LDL despite doing everything right on the diet front.  Getting to the root of these issues is critical to resolving it.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/17/2011 1:23:49 PM |

    Thanks, Joyce. But I don't remember lumping chia with the bad stuff.

    In fact, as you point out, chia belongs with flaxseed as one of the few truly healthy, low-carb foods.

  • Joyce

    9/17/2011 1:45:31 PM |

    Dr. Davies, on p. 212 of your book, chia is lumped in with other non gluten grains.  Maybe in future editions, the publisher can remove that?

    Although I have been gluten free for years, my husband is finally going gluten free..ALL BECAUSE OF YOUR BOOK!  He has some health issues, so for that I humbly thank you.

    Also, his next Toastmasters speech will be on "Wheat Belly"...how about that!

    Thank you so much for a wonderful book.  Your recipes are awesome.  I look forward to a Wheat Belly cookbook!!!!

  • Linda

    9/17/2011 2:57:40 PM |

    There are so many well read and brilliant posters here that I am going to jump in and ask a question totally off topic. This is not Dr. Davis' area of expertise, so I hope others may help.
    I do believe I am dealing with a bone/heel spur. Too much treadmilling, trying to increase speed, etc. I have done research on the condition and I read that turmeric, taken 2-3 times a day, is helpful. I just recently began taking D3 as well, 5000 IU a day. Will the Vit D3 help as well?
    Any thoughts? No, I am choosing not to visit a doctor for a cortisone shot. I am using NSAIDS for the pain and that works very well.

  • nina

    9/17/2011 4:48:56 PM |

    I've just spotted this post.  Never tried chia and wonder what you thought.  Have your patients reported similar effects?

    Nina

  • steve

    9/17/2011 7:26:34 PM |

    We are now seeing more and more people achieve zero or near-zero small LDL with strict carb reduction. The big exception is apo E4 people, who can still struggle because of the peculiar physiologic effects of this pattern

    Could you go in to more depth as to what strict carb reduction menas?  Is it no more than 50grams of starchy carbs such as rice or potatoes, or 100Grams?  I am guessing it is individualized, but some range of restricitons with those who have been successful would be helpful.  
    I have always had a low level of Trigs- never higher tnah 75 even on a hi carb diet, and was surprised to find the NMR showing all small particles!  So Dr. Davis is right to say low Trgs not always indicative of having large LDL.  Switched to elimination of most carbs and totally changed the profile.  Only issue that is while i produced lots of particles with carb diet, i also produce lots of LDL particles with carb restriction.  Genetics i guess!  I am an ApoE 3/3, which was a surprise.  
    Thanks for the good work Dr. D.  Have gotten several to buy Wheat Belly.  It will have an impact!

  • Joyce

    9/17/2011 7:30:40 PM |

    Nina, I am not Dr. Davis (wish I had his knowlege!), and I hope he doesn't mind me jumping in here, but I leaned about chia a few years ago when I read a book by Dr. Wayne Coates on the subject.  Chia has definitely helped me lose weight.  It is very filling.  When mixed with fluids, the chia seeds expand, and they really help to fill you up.  I've found all sorts of wonderful chia recipes on the web - from Chia "Tapioca" to beverages, etc.  I mix  it into many foods.  I think it enhances their taste.  I feel the chia seeds help with weight loss because of their appetite suppressant potential.  I hope this helped, and my apology to the good doctor for hogging the thread.

  • PeteKl

    9/17/2011 10:24:07 PM |

    Your post doesn't provide a lot of info, but if I were to guess I would say your problem is more likely related to walking/running incorrectly than nutritional (assuming you are in reasonable physical condition).  The human foot wasn't designed to be encased in the heavily cushioned shoes we typically wear today.   As a result many of us don't know how to walk or run correctly.

    Some of the better shoe stores will video tape you on a treadmill.  Just seeing the tape may be enough for you to realize what you are doing wrong.  If that doesn't help, there are professionals who should be able to figure out what might be happening.  

    Also consider reading "Born to Run" if you haven't already (it's a good read even for non-runners).  It probably won't give you a direct solution, but it may give you some ideas on where to look.  Good luck.

  • Louise

    9/18/2011 2:10:34 AM |

    Dr. Davis,
       I am 56 and have a strong history of heart disease in my family. I have been eating low carb for a couple of years... ( around 60 gms carb per day average..no pasta, no potato, almost no grain)  My most recent lipid panel showed LDL of 140. HDL 81, Triglycerides 43, CRP 0.2. .  I requested a test to show size of LDL. My doctor declined to order this, saying all LDL is bad.  Instead I was sent for a heart scan  ( paid out of pocket) and my calcium score was 0.  
      So now I'm trying to lower my LDL by lowering saturated fat.  Hard to do when you eat low carb. I wonder if I might be one of those Apo E 4 types that you mention, so thought I should try,.
      Here are my questions:
         Can I test my LDL size myself, through a home test? Or should I try to find out if I have Apo E 4?
          Do I really need to lower LDL if my calcium score is 0?
    Louise

  • Bob Goldstein

    9/18/2011 4:02:36 AM |

    For the last year I have eaten zero fruit, zero grains, zero sugar. Have mostly eaten beef, occasionally eggs cooked in butter. Have done two VAP tests the last year. When I started a year ago, trigs were 115, now 142. HDL was 50, now 46. My LDL did show a change of going from pattern A/B to pattern A.
    Any ideas why a diet for a year devoid of fruit, sugar, grains, would show an increase in trigs, and a slight decrease in HDL. If I have Apo E4 would my ldl go from A/B to A.
    I have lost 25 lbs. in the past year. Could this be a reason my numbers seem to be off?
    Thanks,
    Bob

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:44:29 PM |

    Hi, Bob--

    Yes, blood drawn in the midst of weight loss can be very misleading.

    Transient effects include increased triglycerides, reduced HDL, even much higher blood sugar. Thankfully, it all gets much better once weight plateaus for a couple of months.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:47:39 PM |

    Hi, Louise--

    Sad that you have to educate your doctor.

    I find it unacceptable that a nice person engaged in health is refused a simple, helpful test. Tell your doctor goodbye and find one willing to act as your partner and advocate in health, not an obstruction.

    Yes, you can test it yourself through services like PrivateMDLabs.com. My view is to 1) identify how much, if any small LDL there is, then 2) reduce small LDL with diet. If you have only large LDL, you will absolutely need an LDL particle number by NMR or an apoprotein B to know what the REAL value is.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:49:52 PM |

    Thanks, Steve.

    There are a number of posts on this blog that detail how to gauge individual carbohydrate sensitivity. The best way is to check 1-hour after-eating blood sugars. Second best: count carb with the cutoff being determined individually. Just go back over the past 6 months and you will find several discussions.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:51:17 PM |

    Hi, Joyce--

    Thank you!

    If chia is listed as among undesirable non-gluten grains, that was my error. Remember what Mark Twain said: "Don't read about health, else you might die of a typo."

  • nina

    9/18/2011 5:13:58 PM |

    Thanks for your response Joyce.  

    The part that fascinated me was the idea that chia triggers a drop in blood sugars without a pre-spike.  I can't find anything on the net about that and wondered if other people had similar experiences.

    Nina

  • Bob Goldstein

    9/18/2011 7:08:22 PM |

    Thanks for the reply Dr. Davis. I have a blood test scheduled six months from now, and hopefully I will see better numbers. My LDL shows pattern A so at least I did see one positive change.
    Love your blog. Have learned a lot and it was the reason I gave up grains and sugar. 1 full year, no cheats.

  • Annlee

    9/18/2011 10:41:56 PM |

    Consider also going barefoot as much as possible - around the house, etc. You don't necessarily have to run barefoot (unless you work into it *gradually* and choose to continue it). I've recovered from heel spurs with stretching my achilles, with emphasis on stretching the soleus, and letting my feet bear my weight without any props underneath. For stretches, Anderson & Anderson have a very good book - Stretching - available on amazon.com. You didn't develop the spurs overnight, and they won't clear that quickly, either. Be patient and work with your body.

    You may also wish to consider vitamin K2, very good for ensuring calcium deposition occurs in the correct locations.

  • Kira

    9/19/2011 6:52:43 AM |

    Hi Doctor Davis, I talked to your about a year ago and you were kind enough then to comment on my blood results saying there was nothing to worry about - according to the Iranian formula.  I would greatly appreciate if you looked at my new results, they scared my whole family, I certainly am not going to show to the family physician, and I don't even want to think about changing from paleo style of eating to some kind of low fat cholesterol lowering diet, and taking any drugs/supplements. But may be I have to? I am 36 y.o., 5'4 and weigh 104lb.
    Glucose 85
    VAP TEST:
    Lipids
    LDL Cholesterol 149!
    HDL 130
    VLDL 14
    CHOLESTEROL, Total 293!
    Triglycerides 48
    Non HDL Col (LDL+VLDL) 163!
    apoB100-calc 96
    IDL Cholest 4
    Remnant Lipo. (IDL+VLDL3) 12
    Sub-Class Information:
    HDL-2  35
    HDL-3  95
    VLDL-3  8
    LDL1 Pattern A 3.1
    LDL2 Pattern A 26.0
    LDL3 Pattern B  71.0
    LDL 4 Pattern B  31.4

    The ordinary, non-VAP Lipid panel shows:
    Cholest TOTAL 279 !
    Triglycerides 48
    HDL Cholest 144
    VLDL Cholest Cal 10
    LDL Cholest Calc 125 !

    Also, I can't understand how my vit. D can be so low - 29.0, when I have been sun tanning all summer here in Orange County, California, at peak hours. Is there anything that you know of that may inhibit the vit. D conversion from the sun?
    Again, I greatly appreciate any insight that you can give me on this situation...

  • Louise

    9/19/2011 4:52:38 PM |

    Dr Davis,
      Thank you for your reply.  For now, I found a lab I can go to and get myself tested. Two hours away.. (Oddly, I must leave NY state to get this done due to billing law.). I'm going to do this! Do you agree that my best choice is the NMR?

  • otterotter

    9/19/2011 5:43:51 PM |

    Hi Gib,

    Option 1 will be cutting the saturated fat and cholesterol from the diet in addition to cutting the carbs. I tried eliminating eggs and cheese and my total cholesterol down from 400 to 260. By adding back "one egg a day", it went back to 320 (that's the impact of the dietary cholesterol on me, confirmed twice). I am currrently trying to replacing all saturated fat with mono unsaturated fat (olive+canola), just want to see how big the impact is. I am also going to test coconut oil separately, it is a cholesterol-free plant based medium-chain saturated fat, there is a chance I might respond to it differently.

    Option 2 will be taking Statin drugs. I know it has side effects, but that's better than small dense LDL. Based on Dr Davis's previous response, for apoE, sometimes we have to go to Statin for the rescue. (My doc was pushing statin really hard on me, and I have been resisting that for the last year)

    otter

  • Joyce

    9/19/2011 5:50:45 PM |

    Dr. Davis, you are so funny.  We'll take your book....typos and all!  Now...how about a cookbook to compliment Wheat Belly/  PLEASE????

  • nina

    9/19/2011 7:41:34 PM |

    Sorry I missed the link:

    http://suzanneloomscreativity.blogspot.com/2011/09/lowering-blood-sugar.html

    Nina

  • PeteKl

    9/19/2011 9:24:31 PM |

    Hi Kira,

    Just out of curiosity, could you summarize your "paleo style of eating".  I have a good friend of mine who has similar numbers (low trigs, high HDL, high LDL).  I would describe her diet as "low-carb (no sugar, no grains), low-veggie (under 15%), high meat, high sat-fat (particularly cheese, eggs and coconut)".  Is your diet somewhat similar?  I would be interested to know how the two of you compare.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:36:46 PM |

    NMR is my preferred method, since it yields the LDL particle number, what I believe should be the gold standard.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:38:12 PM |

    Thanks for asking, Joyce! I've had very preliminary conversations with my editor, but nothing firm yet.

    In the meantime, in addition to the discussion on this blog, see the Wheat Belly Blog, where I will publish recipes one by one.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:41:39 PM |

    Hi, Kira--

    You have a surprising dominance of small LDL particles, despite your slender build and lifestyle (LDL 3+4 divided by "real" LDL). This is likely genetically-determined. The means of correcting this is beyond the scope of this blog, unfortunately. You might consider joining the discussion in the Track Your Plaque website.

    The vitamin D issue is common, an impaired or lost ability to activate vit D in the skin. It means doing it orally.

  • Adam

    9/20/2011 6:40:19 PM |

    Dr. Davis. I'm a type 1 diabetic who is on a low carb diet (mostly primal-esque) with only meat and veg. No fruit, no grains, no legumes. I lost 14 kgs in the first three months, then stabalized at around 89 kgs. Granted my fat is going down a wee bit as muscle mass increases (doing the slow burn exercises, plus HIIT training and martial arts). That is the background.

    The reason I'm posting here is confusion about cholesterol. I just got my latest results back from the lab, and they are the same. While my HbA1C is 5.3 (not bad), my cholesterol numbers don't look hot. Tryglicerides are fine (as I've stopped losing weight quickly), but HDL is low at 39, and LDL (doctor forgot to put in particle size check, but it cna't be that good as I'm a diabetic) was 150 on the spot. This was measured, not calculated.

    I take ~7k miligrams (or whatever the measurement is) of fish oil a day. Well, 7k of EHA/DHA, more in total quanity including inert substances. With my exercise, low carb diet, and fish oil supplements, how is it that my HDL are still so low? Any advice?

    Thanks!

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 11:08:46 PM |

    Hi, Adam--

    How timely! See the next post after the one you responded to in which I discuss the transient effects of weight loss, including drops in HDL that rebound over time.

    Also, have you address vitamin D normalization? I aim for 60-70 ng/ml, which usually requires around 6000 units per day (gelcaps or drops only); the HDL-raising effect develops over a year or longer.

  • Adam

    9/21/2011 1:01:18 PM |

    Dr Davis,

    A pleasure to make your (virtual) acquaintance! My vitamin D, according to my last test (results came in yesterday, as I mentioned) levels are 59. A wee bit low, but not too bad, I think.

    I've been consistently 88/89kg for three months (I've been low carb/primal for 6 months total), so haven't lost any weight in the past three months, but still my HDL levels are very low. Do you have any suggestions?

    Cheers,

    Adam

  • Adam

    9/21/2011 1:03:52 PM |

    P.S. I'm pretty sure I've stabalized, as my triglycerides were at 29 or 39 (can't remember off hand, but pretty low). But still I had the low HDL and high LDL?

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/21/2011 9:37:43 PM |

    Hi, Adam--

    Of course, you are wheat-free, low-carb in addition to your vitamin D? Omega-3 fatty acids?

    Note that doing the diet and taking the vitamin D yield rises over 1-2 years. Patience is required.

    Consider a little red wine and dark chocolate, as well.

  • Adam

    9/22/2011 5:10:38 AM |

    Thanks for the response! Yes, I am completely wheat free (and was before I read your book, which was excellent). I am very low carb due to the diabetes. My HDL did go from 29 to 39 this last test (after 6 months), so I suppose, as long as maintaining this diet will continue to increase my HDL, I am ok. My concern isn't immediate gratification but more continuous improvement.

    I'll come bug you again in 3 months if my HDL doesn't continue to increase Smile

    Many thanks!
    ---Adam

    P.S. I've never been accused of not drinking enough red wine Smile While I've been beer free for 6 or 7 months now, I do go through ~2 bottles of red a week.

  • Adam

    9/23/2011 1:35:08 PM |

    Hah! Me too, because if my HDL doesn't start going up I'm gonna freak as I don't know what else to about my numbers. Diet is about as stripped down as it can be, and I'm exercising as much as is reasonable.

    --Adam

  • Kira

    9/24/2011 6:23:22 AM |

    HI Peter. I would say  that my diet could pretty similar, with the exception that I am still eating some low-glycmic fruit everyday (some cantaloup, grapefruits, berries) and eat lots of veggies.

  • Kira

    9/24/2011 6:29:11 AM |

    Dr. Davis, thnx for your reply. I understand this is a blog and it is hard to go into details here, but would you say that it is worth for me to try change this situation by changing the die to using less saturated fat? and would NMR test clarify anything?

    PS How do I further discuss this issue "by joining the discussion in the Track Your Plaque website"?

    Thnx AGAINSmile

  • ShottleBop

    9/25/2011 3:47:09 PM |

    My numbers are like Bill's.  I was diagnosed as pre-diabetic in February, 2008 (today, I'd have been diagnosed as Type 2; my A1c was 6.5, and my FBGs were 127 and 123).  Started low-carbing shortly after that:  cut out grains, starchy veggies, almost all fruit, all milk (still use heavy cream and eat cheese).   My most recent blood lipids (accounting for some variation, but roughly consistent in pattern over the past three years):

    TC:  381
    LDL (direct):  279 (291 calculated)
    HDL:  80 (was 40 at diagnosis)
    Trigs:  52

    (At diagnosis, my numbers were:
    TC: 281
    LDL (direct) 215
    HDL: 40
    Trig: 142)

    I lost 65 pounds in the first 9 months after diagnosis, and, since then, have regained approximately 25 pounds (mostly muscle).  Weight has been stable for months.  My doctor is talking statins, again--which I plan to continue resisting.  I have ordered an NMR test, and will see what it has to say about my particle size.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/26/2011 12:39:56 PM |

    Hi, Shottle--

    Good plan. I wouldn't be surprised if NMR sheds an entirely different light on your values.

  • ShottleBop

    9/29/2011 4:23:57 PM |

    They drew the blood this morning.

  • Bob

    9/30/2011 11:14:10 PM |

    Dr. Davis, I had my NMR test and the doctor who looked at it suggests that I have familial hypercholesterolemia. My LDL-P 3158
    LDL-C 280 HDL-C 58, TGL 105, HDL-P 28.0 small LDL-P 1122,
    LDL 21.7, LP-IR-33. I have been on no carb, no sugar, no wheat, or fruit for the last 14 months. Have been eating fatty meat twice a day and also eggs. Before I started eating beef, I was eating low carb, very little sat. fat. I was eating a lot of skinless chicken breast, and canned salmon, veggies, nuts, fruit but almost no beef. My LDL according to the basic lipid test was a little high but not crazy high. My HDL was in mid 30's. and trigs were high. I changed to a high saturated fat diet to raise HDL and lower trigs. I have been taking 1 gram of fish oil 2X daily. Is it possible that the fish oil is having an effect on my LDL? Not sure what to do about my diet. Obviously I won't go back to sugar and wheat but what about all the meat I have been eating. Would it be better to go back to skinless chicken and egg beaters even if it means my HDL going down? Just not sure what to do. Doctor believes I am at high risk since my father died at age 62 of sudden death.
    Thanks,
    Bob

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/1/2011 1:48:14 PM |

    Hi, Bob--

    This is a tough situation that, unfortunately, cannot be remedied diet alone. I hate saying that.

    Like people with apo E4, familial heterozygous hypercholesterolemia people are fat sensitive. First order of nutritional business remains carb-restriction to minimize small LDL particles, but you can still show large increases in large LDL with fat intake. If apo E4 is present, too, then even something as great as fish oil can increase LDL measures. However, the dose of fish oil you are using is very small and not a likely factor.

  • Bob

    10/1/2011 2:57:34 PM |

    Thanks for the reply Dr. Davis. I know I won't go back to carbs and sugar, but what about beef. I have eaten almost nothing but beef the last 14 months. Would I be better off going back to skinless chicken breast? Egg Beaters, instead of eggs? Olive oil instead of butter? I know in the past when I limited saturated fat my HDL dropped to mid 30's.
    Bob

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/2/2011 2:46:17 PM |

    Hi, Bob--

    I think we could make a strong argument in favor of variety in diet and that includes meat sources. Yes, I think a broader range of meats (if you eat them; I don't want to sound like a bloodthirsty carnivore; I don't even like meat, personally) is better--fish, shellfish, fowl, pork, as well as eggs.

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:02:47 PM |

    Results came back today:
    TC:  373 mg/dL (ref <200)
    LDL-C:  282 mg/dL (ref = 40)
    Trigs:  47 mg/dL (ref < 150)
    Large VLDL:  <0.7 (ref <=2.7)
    LDL-P:  1793 nmol/L (ref = 30.5)
    Large HDL-P:  14.2 umol/L (ref >=4.8)
    Small LDL-P:  146 nmol/L (ref  20.5)
    HDL size:  10.0 nm (ref >=9.2)
    VLDL concentration was too low to determine a size
    According to the interpretive information:
    My HDL-P (total) of 39.1 places me in the lowest category of risk (it is beyone "high")
    My small LDL-P places me well below the 25th percentile (while slightly higher than the "low" level of 117), and is indicative of lower risk for CVD
    My LDL size places me well above the 75th percentile, and well into Pattern A territory (75th percentile level is 20.6), and is indicative of lower risk for CVD

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:04:16 PM |

    Correction:  My LDL-C was 282, vs. a reference of " 40"

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:06:37 PM |

    I give up.  I am typing things in correctly, and the comment system is dropping words (maybe it's interpreting my use of "greater than" and "less than" symbols as markup code?).  My HDL-C was 82.  The reference level is greater than 40.  My LDL-C was 282; the reference level is less than 100.

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:09:37 PM |

    I see it dropped more information than I thought at first.  No matter, the conclusion stays the same: except for my LDL particle number and concentration, all of my lipid values indicate that I am at lower (or much lower) than average risk of CVD.  Now if only my body takes that to heart . . ..

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:16:32 PM |

    LDL particle size was 22.1
    HDL-P was 39.1 umol/L

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/4/2011 2:41:25 AM |

    Hi, Shottle--

    Your values highlight this tremendous void we have in knowing just what to do about nearly "pure" large LDL particles.

    In other words, you have lots of LDL particles, but they are nearly all the more benign large variety. What level of large LDL particles are "allowable" before they contribute to atherosclerotic plaque formation? Not known. My preference would be, given the extreme abundance of large LDL, to reduce with statin drug. I hate to say this, but this is the occasional exception in which I believe that statins might indeed be beneficial. This is not to be confused with the general and absurd overuse of the drugs, but an application for a very specific genetic variant.

  • Louise

    12/5/2011 10:58:49 PM |

    At last I have had an NMR.  Thank you for the suggestion of PrivateMDlabs.com.  I can recommend this
    to others who find their doctor unwilling to order tests.
    I am pondering my results, trying to figure out if they are okay, or if I need to cut back on fat now, or go lower with carb reduction. What are your thoughts, Dr Davis?
       LDL Particle Number  1091  ( IS this too high??)
        Small LDL - P    129
          LDL size     21
        Large VLDL - P   < 0.7
           Large HDL - P        12.1
            HDL size           9.7
          LP - IR score    11
    Triglycerides are 32  ( lower since I"ve gone completely
    grain free since my last lipid panel)

  • Dr. William Davis

    12/6/2011 5:26:54 PM |

    These values are excellent, Louise! The only less than perfect value is the large HDL, but this tends to drift higher very slowly.

  • GoodStew

    5/11/2013 1:56:57 AM |

    Seems particle size doesn't matter as much as particle number. According to Dr. Peter Attia, a particle is a particle.  More than 1000 is a risk factor whether they're small, medium or large and fluffy.

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