What's the best lipoprotein test?

This is a frequent question from Track Your Plaque Members and others interested in improving their heart disease prevention program beyond that of simple-minded cholesterol testing.

I obtain lipoprotein testing every day on patients. I can tell you with the confidence of having done thousands of these tests that plain, old-fashioned cholesterol testing is like relying on riding a scooter to work compared to an 8-cylinder modern automobile. The scooter might get you there, but any rain, snow, or long distance to travel and you can just forget it.

All too often, lipoprotein testing uncovers abnormalities that standard cholesterol testing simply fails to uncover.

So, among the various lipoprotein tests available, which is best?


There are three commercial tests available today:

1) Gel electropheresis (GGE)--often known by its "brand" name as the Berkeley lipoprotein profile, after Berkeley HeartLabs. GGE uses a gel with an electric field applied to cause lipoproteins to migrate, based on particle size and charge.

2) Vertical auto-profile (VAP)--a form of centrifugation, or high-speed spinning of blood plasma to separate lipoprotein particles.

3) Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR)--the idea of putting plasma in an NMR (also known as MRI) device to characterize blood proteins.

All three tests do an excellent job. All are competitively priced. All have validating data--lots of it--to justify their broad use (though health insurers, in their vast wisdom, would still have you believe that the tests are "experimental").

But is one better?

Having done many of all three (though least of VAP), I am partial to Liposcience's NMR. (By the way, I receive no fees from Liposcience to use their test, nor to promote it in any way.)

I believe NMR is superior in a few ways:

1) I believe that the LDL particle number is the best way to truly quantify LDL, better than apoprotein B and "direct" LDL.

2) It provides what I believe to be more accurate small LDL measures.

3) It provides intermediate-density lipoprotein (IDL), a post-prandial, or after-eating, measure not available on the other two.

Perhaps I'm biased because I use the NMR most frequently. But I've used it because I felt it yielded superior, more clinically believable, data.

In truth, all three laboratories do an excellent job and you'd be served fine by obtaining any of the three. But my heart goes to NMR.

Vitamin K2, aspirin, fish oil and blood thinning

An interesting question came up from one of our Track Your Plaque Members on the Forum.

"I am now taking 9 mg of vitamin K1 and 1000 mcg of K2.

Does taking this supplement with this much K1 have a counteracting effect on the thinning/anticlotting properties of aspirin and fish oil that I also take?"


Great question (along with lots of other greater discussions we have on the Forum.)

The answer: Vitamin K should have no effect on the platelet-blocking effects of aspirin or fish oil. The majority of blood clot inhibiting effects of aspirin and fish oil arise from their ability to keep blood platelets from "clumping" (just like the TV commercials for Plavix).

Vitamin K, on the other hand, participates in the liver production of blood clotting factors (like II, VII, IX, and X, among others for you curious ones).

Thus, vitamin K-dependent clotting factors and platelet-blocking are two separate pathways to forming blood clots. Some of us refer to the difference as "red clots" from the vitamin K pathway and "white clots" from the platelet pathway, since they really do have this different physical appearance.

The vitamin K2 conversation, like that about vitamin D, is fascinating for its potential to provide the missing link between the tightly-tied fortunes of bone health and atherosclerosis. Why is someone with a high CT heart scan score far more likely to have osteoporosis? Vitamin D and K2 deficiency may provide the missing link for many people.

"Drug no cure for gluttony"

That's the headline I'd like to see associated with rosiglitazone, brand name Avandia.

The recent negative press, whether deserved or not, surrounding the prescription drug rosiglitazone for pre-diabetes and diabetes highlights the fact that drugs never--never--substitute for what we can achieve with lifestyle changes.

Typically, rosiglitazone reduces blood sugar a few milligrams, reduces C-reactive protein, and very modestly reduces triglycerides and its associated evil lipoprotein friends. It also causes an average weight gain of 8 lb in the first year of use.

What will weight loss achieve, especially if accomplished through dramatic reduction or elimination of processed carbohydrates and wheat products, along with fish oil supplementation, vitamin D normalization, and exercise? Extraordinary benefits, far superior to what is achievable with this drug. In fact, while rosiglitazone is a Band-Aid for this process, the lifestyle changes can represent a cure in many or most instances.

It should come as no surprise that a drug that does nothing more than increase sensitivity to insulin cannot erase the devastating effects of an unhealthy life. Take rosiglitazone but neglect exercise, don't bother with vitamin D, indulge in pretzels and breakfast cereals, gain more weight . . . It serves the drug company's agenda better than it serves health.

Rosiglitazone not so rosy?

Dr. Steve Nissen of the Cleveland Clinic published a study that suggests that the pre-diabetes and diabetes drug, rosiglitazone, may increase likelihood of heart attack by 43%.

I say "suggests" because the analysis was something called a "meta-analysis", a re-examination of data obtained by pooling unrelated studies and reanalyzing the data. Strengths of this sort of analysis: Sometimes trends that are not evident in smaller studies finally become evident in the larger numbers of participants obtained through pooling of data. Downside: Any statistician will tell you that a meta-analysis can only suggest an association, it cannot prove it.

Nonetheless, we are talking about people's lives. As they say, if you are taking this drug, also known by the brand name, Avandia, then talk to your doctor. I think that this is sound advice, as there are a number of factors to weigh in decision making. For instance, how far along the diabetic path are you? Have you had negative experiences with other agents?

It will, unfortunately, be months to years before confirmatory evidence on this question become available. In the meantime, Nissen will accuse the drug industry of pushing drugs through the FDA approval process without full safety data. GlaxoSmithKline, the manufacturer of Avandia, will counter with claims of weak data, the existing trials not confirming Nissen's findings, etc. We've seen it before.

My take on this is to step back and look at the broad picture. Do we need yet another reason to say that it's far better to maintain normal body weight, dramatically reduce reliance on processed carbohydrates and wheat, exercise, and following other insulin-sensitizing strategies, rather than rely on insulin-sensitizing drugs? (That's what rosiglitazone is supposed to do.) Metabolic syndrome, also known as pre-diabetes, or diabetes is present to various degrees in two thirds of all adults I meet. Nearly all of it is self-inflicted. Nearly all of it is curable with the above lifestyle strategies if undertaken early enough in the process.

A 190 lb, 5 foot 2 inch woman, or a 220 lb, 5 foot 10 inch man, both of whom are surprised that they have pre-diabetes really need to get a grip on reality and health. To me, it's no surprise that drugs do not reverse all the nasty manifestations of lifestyle gone berserk. It should also come as no surprise that the complex, chaotic physiologic mess created by metabolic syndrome and pre-diabetes is not perfectly managed by adding one drug.

The lipid distorting effects of weight loss

Roger experienced a near-fatal heart attack 6 years ago. He survived thanks to the quick action of bystanders who initiated CPR and called 911. An emergency catheterization was performed and a stent implanted into the closed right coronary artery. But that's not why I tell Roger's story.

Since then, Roger has become comfortable with the idea that he has heart disease. His initial commitment to good nutrition and exercise has waned, as it often does in us distractable humans. So Roger gained about 30 lbs through a long winter, inactivity, eating frozen dinners, and the cookies and baked goodies his daughters made him.

As a result of the weight gain and inactivity, Roger's HDL dropped to 32 mg/dl, triglycerides rose to 211 mg/dl, blood sugar crept up into the pre-diabetic range of 116 mg/dl. Undoubtedly, small LDL was out of control beneath the surface. His tummy reflected the weight gain, flaccid and overhanging his belt.

I read Roger the riot act. I reminded him of what he had experienced and nearly didn't survive. Weight loss and a re-invigoration of his nutrition and exercise efforts was going to be crucial.

Roger listened and took it to heart. Over three months, he lost 24 lbs, a phenomenal result. However, his repeat lipid panel showed an HDL of 28 mg/dl, triglycerides 234 mg/dl, blood sugar unchanged.

"I don't get it! I lose all this weight and the number get worse?!" Roger was understandably upset after his enormous effort.

I told Roger that after a profound weight loss, lipids can go berserk for up to two months after weight has stabilized. Typically, HDL drops and triglycerides rise--the opposite of what we want. But wait another two or so months after weight has stabilized and the numbers begin to look beautiful.

Why does this crazy effect happen? I really don't know and I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for it. But it is very real and quite predictable.

The lesson: after a substantial weight loss, be patient. Check your lipid numbers too soon and you might be confused or disappointed. If you do check them, bear in mind that additional time may need to pass before you see the weight loss fully reflected.

Cholesterol reduction and wheat

In my previous post, Identical twins and the explosive influence of weight , we witnessed an excellent example of the profound influence of food choices and weight control on lipoproteins. The heavier twin among these 35-year old male twins (Steve) had an LDL particle number over two-fold higher than his more slender counterpart (Alfred).

The heavier twin, Steve, got here through numerous and longstanding dietary excesses: fast foods, saturated fats, sweets, processed foods. The conventional answer to Steve's lipid dilemma would be to modestly reduce his reliance on saturated fat, exercise, and limit snacks.

How far would that get Steve? Not very far at all. With regards to his high LDL particle number of 2256 nmol/l (representing an "effective" LDL cholesterol of around 225 mg/dl), it would be reduced a little, perhaps 10%.

Notice, however, that 72% of all Steve's LDL particles are small (1639/2256). This is the pattern that responds dramatically to a sharp reduction in processed carbohydrates, especially wheat-containing products.

If Steve were to eliminate all wheat products--all breads, breakfast cereals, pretzels, cookies, cakes, pasta, crackers--LDL particle number will drop dramatically, perhaps 50%, often more depending on the magnitude of weight loss. Small LDL will respond most obviously and will be sharply reduced, perhaps disappear. Incidentally, these changes might not be well reflected by the conventional calculated LDL cholesterol, since small LDL particles are well-concealed by standard measures.

Reducing corn products, white and brown rice, and potatoes would also add to the effect. But, in 2007, wheat products represent 90% of the problem for the majority of people. Reducing or eliminating wheat therefore yields the biggest effect by a long shot.

Steve therefore represents an excellent example of how reducing processed carbohydrates, esp. wheat-containing products, can yield an unexpected and paradoxical reduction in LDL cholesterol as evidenced by the highly accurate LDL particle number (or apoprotein B). Reducing saturated fat sources also helps, but it certainly will not yield the kind of results most people need. You've got to be smarter than the simple-minded conventional advice.

Identical twins and the explosive influence of weight

A Track Your Plaque member, Eugene, brought this fascinating story to my attention.

Eugene has two nephews, identical twins aged 35 years. Despite their similar personalities and appearances, somehow these two drifted apart in weight with Steve outweighing Alfred by 30 lbs.

Eugene explains:

These guy's are big not, but overly fat. Just big. One is about 30 lbs heaver than the other. They live 2 blocks apart, they ate the same (together) meal the night before the blood work. Their mother is a type 2 diabetic with a heart condition. Steve does not eat as well as his twin, junk food and a lot of processed starches.


Their results:



LDL-Particle number
Alfred 900
Steve 2256

Small LDL-P
Alfred 400
Steve 1639

HDL-C
Alfred 44
Steve 36

Triglycerides
Alfred 85
Steve 355

Metabolic Syn.
Alfred no
Steve yes


Glucose

Fasting
Alfred 93
Steve 112

1hour
Alfred 134
Steve 206

2 hour
Alfred 105
Steve 172


Identical twins begin with the very same genetic background. As these two graphically illustrate, weight can have a profound influence in the genetically susceptible.

LDL particle number alone is 250% greater in the heavier twin. The dreaded small LDL particle is over 400% worse! Look also at the dramatic differences in blood sugar.

If you ever had any doubts about the importance of excess weight and nutrition, just remind yourself of this fascinating illustration.

Thanks, Eugene.

Low-fat diets raise triglycerides

Martin, a hospital employee, knowing that I fuss a great deal with lipids and lipoproteins, showed me his lipid panel because the result triggered a "panic value" for triglycerides at 267 mg/dl. He asked if he should go on a serious low-fat diet.

I asked Martin what he had for breakfast: a whole wheat bagel with no-added-sugar jam. Lunch: a turkey sub on whole grain bread, no mayonnaise. Snacks: baked chips, pretzels ("a low-fat snack!").

In years past, if person developed high triglycerides levels, a very low-fat diet was prescribed. Someone would come to the hospital, for instance, with abdominal pain from pancreatitis (an inflamed pancreas)due to the damaging effects of triglyceride levels >1000 mg/dl. For this reason, many people still believe that all instances of elevated triglycerides should be treated with a reduction in fat intake.

This is absolutely wrong. While a fat restriction may reduce triglycerides in genetically-programmed responses when triglycerides are >1000 mg/dl, lesser levels of high triglycerides of, say 250 or 300 mg/dl, do not respond to dietary fat restrictions as a sole strategy.

Yes, a reduction in unhealthy fats (saturated, trans, polyunsaturated) helps. But a reduction in fats of all sorts is not necessary and can, in fact, worsen the problem. We learned this lesson years ago with the Ornish diet and similar ultra low-fat approaches. When you reduce fat intake significantly to <10% of calories, triglycerides go way up. In those days, it wasn't uncommon to see triglycerides skyrocket past 200 or 300 mg/dl on these diets.

Why are triglycerides important? Triglycerides are an ingredient in creating the lipoproteins VLDL, IDL, small LDL. Elevated triglycerides trigger a drop in HDL, a shift towards small, ineffective HDL, and contribute to heightened inflammation. Higher triglycerides also tend to go hand in hand with lipoproteins that persist for extended periods (12-24 hours or longer) in the blood after a meal.

Triglycerides respond very nicely to a dramatic reduction in processed carbohydrates, especially wheat and corn. Of course, wheat is the bulk of the problem, since it has grown to occupy an enormous role in many people's diet, not uncommonly eaten 3,4, or 5 times per day in various forms, as it has in Martin's diet. Eliminating all sources of high-fructose corn syrup is also helpful, since high-fructose corn syrup shoots triglycerides way up. (Recall that high-fructose corn syrup is everywhere: ketchup, beer, low-fat or non-fat salad dressings, breads, fruit drinks, sports drinks, breakfast cereals, etc.)

Curiously, it is a fat that also powerfully reduces triglycerides in the form of fish oil. In the Track Your Plaque program, fish oil, taken at truly effective doses of 4000 mg per day or more (to provide at least 1200 mg EPA+DHA), is our number one choice after reduction of processed carbohydrates for reduction of high triglycerides.

The dreaded niacin "flush"

As most anybody who takes niacin knows, it can cause a hot flushed feeling over the chest and face that is generally harmless, though quite annoying.

Many doctors are frightened by this response and will warn patients off from niacin. Some people who take niacin are so annoyed that they find it intolerable.

However, a very simple maneuver can relieve the hot flush in over 90% of instances: Drink water. Let me explain.

I usually instruct patients to take niacin at dinnertime. That way, food slows absorption modestly. I also ask them to drink water with dinner. If the flush occurs after dinner (usually 30-60 minutes later), then drinking two 8-12 oz glasses of water immediately breaks the flush within 3 minutes in the great majority of people. It's quite dramatic.

Doing this around dinner (lunch works just as well) allows sufficient time to clear the excess water from your body before bedtime and spare you the aggravation of disrupted sleep to urinate. Drinking plenty of water works most of the time. Only an occasional person will need to take a 325 mg uncoated aspirin to more fully break the flush. I generally suggest that patients keep the uncoated aspirin in reserve if the water doesn't provide relief within a few minutes.

Thankfully, the intensity of the niacin flush lessens, often disappears, with chronic use.

Why do some people develop the flush and other don't? It is believed that some people metabolize niacin more rapidly to a compound called nicotinuric acid, a niacin metabolite that causes dilation (relaxation) of skin capillaries--thus the flush. The rapidity of converting niacin to nicotinuric acid is determined genetically.

An occasional person really struggles with niacin to the point of intolerance. However, on the positive side, these people may also be "hyper-responders" to niacin, i.e., they show exagerated benefits in raising HDL, reducing small LDL, etc., from small doses such as 250 mg per day.

If you experience the hot flush of niacin, think water to put out the fire.

A cure for pessimism?

Followers of the Track Your Plaque program know that we place great value on having an optimistic outlook. Not only are you more likely to be happy and successful in life, you are also far more likely to drop your CT heart scan score. Virtually everyone who has succeeded in dropping their heart scan score dramatically has been an optimist, including our most recent record holder who dropped his score an astounding 51%.

But what if you are a pessimist, someone who gripes and complains about everything, sees the bad in other people, blames others for anything and everything that goes wrong--yet you still desire to drop your heart scan score? Are you a lost cause? Should you just give up?

I don't think so. I will admit that, of all the hurdles we encounter in trying to purposefully stop or reduce heart scan scores, overcoming a pessimistic attitude is probably the toughest. Tougher than being overweight, maybe tougher than even Lp(a).

Perhaps there's a solution in two years of psychotherapy sessions with a counselor, or exploring unresolved childhood conflicts with a psychologist, or an antidepressant drug. Pessimism is, after all, a deeply-ingrained pattern of behavior, something that can't be changed just by suggesting it or simple self-realization.

The closest thing I know of to a quick and relatively easy solution for converting a pessimist to an optimist is very simple:

Do good things for other people.

Something peculiar happens to the pessimist when he/she starts to help others. They are less threatened by other people (since much griping is really fear in disguise), begin to see others as vulnerable creatures who could use their help rather than sources of annoyance, and a kinship with others is acquired.

Doing good things can mean giving blood, donating money to the Sierra Club or other charity, volunteering with the Boy Scouts, tipping the hard working waitress trying to pay for college more generously, paying compliments to people around you, helping a neighbor carry the groceries when you see him struggling, showing a child how to make a paper airplane . . .

Good deeds can take a million different forms. But it must involve you personally. It can't mean delegating a helpful activity to your spouse. You must also do it frequently, not just once a year. It doesn't have to cost money, it doesn't have to involve a lot of time (though your personal bodily involvement does yield the greatest return in optimism). These are things anyone can do and help make the world around you a little better.

If taking these small steps towards an optimistic attitude are too much for you, then I would worry that you are destined to fail in dropping your heart scan score.

Why small LDL particles are the #1 cause of heart disease in the US

Why small LDL particles are the #1 cause of heart disease in the US

Ask your doctor: What is the #1 cause of heart disease in the US?

Let's put aside smoking, since it is an eminently modifiable risk and none of those crazies read this blog anyway. What will your doctor say? Most like he or she will respond:

High cholesterol or high LDL cholesterol

Too much saturated fat

Obesity

Pfizer, Merck, AstraZeneca and their kind would be overjoyed to know that they can add your doctor to their eager following.

I'd tell you something different. I would tell you that small LDL particles are, by far and away, the #1 cause for heart disease. I base this claim on several observations:

--Having run over 10,000 lipoprotein panels (mostly NMR) over the past 15 years, it is a rare person who does not have a moderate, if not severe, excess of small LDL particles. 50%, 70%, even 90% or more small LDL particles are not rare. Over the course of a year, the only people who show no small LDL particles are slender, athletic, pre-menopausal females.

--In studies in which lipoproteins have been quantified in people with coronary disease, small LDL particles dominate, just as they do in my office. Here's a 2006 review.

--Small LDL is largely the province of people who consume carbohydrates, such as the American population instructed to "cut fat and eat more healthy whole grains." Conventional diet advice has therefore triggered an expllosion in small LDL particles.

--When fasting triglycerides exceed 60 mg/dl, small LDL particles increase as a proportion of total LDL particles. This includes the majority of the US population. (This ignores postprandial, or after-eating, triglycerides, which also contribute to small LDL formation.)

If you were to read the data, however, you might conclude that small LDL affects a minority of people. This is because in most studies small LDL categorize it as either "pattern B," meaning exceeding some arbitrary threshold of percentage of small LDL particles, versus "pattern A," meaning falling below that same arbitrary threshold.

Problem: There is no consensus on what percentage of small LDL particles should mark the cutoff between pattern A vs. pattern B. In many studies, for instance, people with 50% small LDL particles are called "pattern A."

If, instead, we were to set the bar lower to identify this highly atherogenic (atherosclerotic plaque-causing) particle at, say, 20-30% of total, then the number or percentage of people with "pattern B" small LDL particles would go much higher.

I see this play out in my office and in the online program, Track Your Plaque, every day: At the start eating a low-fat, grain-filled diet with lots of visceral fat ("wheat belly") to start, they add back fat and cut out all wheat and limit carbohydrates. Small LDL particles plummet

Comments (77) -

  • Bill

    9/15/2011 1:13:26 PM |

    But is there any real evidence that small LDL is a *cause* of heart disease? Correlation alone isn't sufficient, of course, and Chris Masterjohn has said that even the correlation largely disappears when traditional "risk factors" such as HDL, LDL, and triglycerides are added to the model.

    I ask in part because I am about to arm wrestle with my primary care doctor about my recent cholesterol panel:

    Total: 382
    HDL: 157
    LDL: 217 (calculated)
    Triglycerides: 39

    He's upset about the LDL, of course, especially since it's progressively risen over time (coinciding with dietary changes pretty compatible with TYP and including quite a bit of sat fat after years as a low-fat vegetarian). Naturally, he wants me to reduce my fat consumption and retest in four months, and I'm sure a statin drug recommendation will follow just as the sunset inevitably follows the sunrise.

    I am thinking of asking for a full lipoprotein panel, with the expectation that it will calm him down by showing 1) much lower real, measured LDL with my rock bottom triglycerides and 2) strong Pattern A LDL with my sky high HDL and low triglycerides.

    But I'm not certain if I can really make a convincing empirical case to him that Pattern A is benign with a high LDL. (I'm also hesitating after hearing Chris Masterjohn say that LDL particle size measurements are hugely dependent on the type of assay used and that as a result it's not clear what, biologically, any given result means until these methodological discrepancies are sorted out.)

  • Peter Silverman

    9/15/2011 2:41:59 PM |

    The article you cite says the number of LDL particles may be more important than the size.  Is that your experience?

  • Howard

    9/15/2011 3:02:31 PM |

    @Bill : Chris Masterjohn also mentioned in a recent podcast that the current measurement technology for LDL particle size is just not sufficiently accurate to be useful.

  • chuck

    9/15/2011 3:48:18 PM |

    what is your feeling on oxidized ldl?

  • chuck

    9/15/2011 3:52:16 PM |

    @howard
    yes, based on the hour to hour, day to day, week to week, and month to month natural fluctuations of lipids in the blood it is difficult to make any real judgements about cholesterol readings without doing multiple panels over a period of time.  the whole medical community seems to be screwed up in this respect.

  • Kathy

    9/15/2011 4:13:20 PM |

    I have no idea what Dr. Davis' response will be, but if you're interested in getting an NMR profile done on your own dime (and if there is a convenient location near you), check out directlabs.com for their September special.  An NMR profile will only set you back $79 (reg $127).  I've been waiting for this "sale" and am getting it done to show my own doctor.  Your health is ultimately in your hands - keep up the good fight!
    Best,
    Kathy

  • edward white

    9/15/2011 5:02:18 PM |

    Dr D,
    I totally agree small LDL is driven by excess carbohydrate intake and postprandial
    triglycerides. However there is a substantial subset of people whose small LDL
    is genetically driven. I believe you are aware of this phenomena.
    Please let these folks know what their options are to address this important issue!
    There can be a good deal of frustration when carbs and triglycerides are addressed but
    with little lowering of small LDL.
    Please help this substantial number of people out by outlining their options...
    Gib

  • Unix-Jedi

    9/15/2011 5:22:13 PM |

    Thanks for that information, Kathy.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 5:57:26 PM |

    It ain't good,  just ask Wikipedia.   From the Wiki page re 'Chronic endothelial injury hypothesis':
    "Once LDL accumulates in the subendothelial space, it tends to become modified or oxidized.[5] This oxidized LDL plays several key roles in furthering the course of the inflammatory process. It is chemotactic to monocytes; oxidized LDL causes endothelial cells to secrete molecules that cause monocytes to penetrate between the endothelial cells and accumulate in the intima.[6]

    Oxidized LDL promotes death of endothelial cells by augmenting apoptosis. Also, through the activation of collagenases, ox-LDL contributes to a process which may lead to the rupture of the fibrous plaque[7] Oxidized LDL decreases the availability of endothelial nitric oxide (NO), which, in turn, increases the adhesion of monocytes to the endothelium.[8] Moreover, NO is involved in paracrine signalling between the endothelium and the smooth muscle that maintains vascular tone; without it, the muscle will not relax, and the blood vessel remains constricted. Thus, oxidized LDL also contributes to the hypertension often seen with atherosclerosis."

  • Bob

    9/15/2011 6:12:21 PM |

    Test reply

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 6:13:54 PM |

    Yes, French cardiologist Guy-Andre Pelouze MD. at the recent Ancestral Health Symposium said in his presentation "Paleodiet and atheroma: A Cardiovascular Surgeon’s Perspective" that:

    1. Native (the reduced form of) LDL cholesterol is NOT atherogenic, only the oxidized form leads to atheroma, atherogenesis & arterial plaque formation.

    2. Without oxidized cholesterol it's very difficult to have arterial plaque formation

    3. Anti-oxidants are ineffective in preventing atheroma.

    4. SDLDL easily enter the subendothelial space because SDLDL are less than 25 nm in diameter and the subendothelial space is 26 nm.

    5. Subendothelial space in humans is very different in humans than other mammals due to the large amount of smooth muscle in the arterial media below the the intima layer.

    And there's much more.  To see a video of Dr. Pelouze's presentation hosted on the Ancestral Health page at Vimeo just google 'vimeo, paleodiet and atheroma', then scroll to video number 33 in the right side box.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 6:42:38 PM |

    Do you REALLY believe that? We have the ability to measure the distance between the earth and the moon almost down to the millimeter, and certainly down to the centimeter. We have the ability to measure individual atoms with electron and other types of microscopy used in materials engineering and computer chip manufacturing.  Medical, biochemical & physiological textbooks are full of descriptions of the sizes of white and red blood cells, bacteria and viruses, etc. ad infinitum.  Do you REALLY think we lack the ability to measure SDLDL?  Don't be so ready to believe something just because somebody says something about it.  Use your own brain, put together everything you know and can learn on your own and connect ALL the dots before drawing a conclusion.  

    Furthermore, what's the point of a statement like that?  Should we just give up measuring and trying to understand how SDLDL causes atheroma just because ONE guy says we can't measure them to his degree of satisfaction?  Should we just give up worrying about what we eat, and what we are being sold as foods that are arbitrarily declared to be safe to eat by some anonymous bureaucrat at the FDA?  Should we just ignore the ever increasing incidence rates of cancer, heart disease and atherosclerosis that by all applications of observation and simple logic are known to be entirely due to the modern industrial foods diet in every society and the peoples that subsist on them?  

    I don't think so.  Homey don't play that anymore, at least this one doesn't.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 6:55:16 PM |

    @Bill,  Google and see this study: 'Detection of low density lipoprotein particle fusion by proton nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy'.    
    "Abstract: Recent evidence suggests that fusion of low density lipoprotein (LDL) particles is a key process in the initial accumulation of lipid in the arterial intima. In order to gain a better understanding of this early event in the development of atherosclerosis, it would thus be necessary to characterize the process of LDL fusion in detail. Such studies, however, pose severe methodological difficulties, such as differentiation of particle fusion from aggregation. In this paper we describe the use of novel methodology, based on 1H NMR spectroscopy, to study lipoprotein particle fusion."

  • Don

    9/15/2011 7:24:04 PM |

    Bill,
    You have no worry since your triglycerides are quite low and therefore your LDL particles are of healthy size.  Your correctly calculated LDL is only 161 using the Iranian formula (used if triglycerides low).  See LDL calculator here:
    http://homepages.slingshot.co.nz/~geoff36/LDL_mg.htm

    And never use statins, just cut carbs.
    Don

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 7:34:54 PM |

    "About 80% of cholesterol is composed of fats and oils (Current Atherosclerosis Reports 2004). The
    majority of an arterial clog, 55%, comes from defective cooking oils, containing mainly damaged omega 6. Most of us unknowingly purchase these oils in the cooking oil section of the supermarket. These are the oils we fry with and the oils added to most packaged foods; both fresh and frozen.

    Here’s another shocker. It’s not the saturated fat —it’s the adulterated omega-6 from food processing that clogs arteries! Contrary to what we have heard for decades, it is not the saturated fat you eat that clogs your arteries! How do we know this? A 1994 Lancet article reported investigating the components of arterial plaques. In an aortic artery clog, they found that there are over ten different compounds in arterial plaque, but NO saturated fat. This means the bacon, eggs, cheese, steak, whipped cream, etc. isn’t the reason for a clogged artery. These natural saturated fats are actually good for you. You need them for body structure.

    With the consumption and transport of defective processed oils, LDL cholesterol acts like a “poison delivery system,” bringing deadly transfats and other ruined oils  into the cells. It is primarily the oxidized (adulterated) omega-6 that clogs the arteries, NOT saturated fat!"  

    For more just google 'Brian Peskin saturated fat' and read the day away to your heart's content.

  • Jack Kronk

    9/15/2011 8:37:50 PM |

    "just because somebody says something about it. Use your own brain, put together everything you know and can learn on your own and connect ALL the dots before drawing a conclusion. "

    lol. you must not know who CMast is.

  • cancerclasses

    9/15/2011 10:27:09 PM |

    Yeah, I do, and that's why I said that.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:40:13 AM |

    Hi, Gib--

    The strategies that reduce small LDL are the same whether it's genetically-driven or acquired. However, when (presumptively) genetically-driven, it's just harder and requires a more meticulous effort.

    We are now seeing more and more people achieve zero or near-zero small LDL with strict carb reduction. The big exception is apo E4 people, who can still struggle because of the peculiar physiologic effects of this pattern.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:42:32 AM |

    Big issue. Note that the real culprit in causing plaque may be glycated oxidized LDL.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:43:51 AM |

    Hi, Peter--

    No, I think that is wrong. It might be correct if small LDL is regarded in a dichotomous way, i.e., pattern A vs. pattern B. But, when viewed quantitatively, I believe the real culprit is quantity of small LDL.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/16/2011 2:46:58 AM |

    No question: The various lipoprotein testing companies need to talk and standardize their definitions. But this does not invalidate the concepts.

    Chris Masterjohn is a very bright guy. But on this I disagree. I believe it is wrong to assume that triglycerides and HDL behave in perfect tandem with small LDL. While they do indeed correlate, they do not correlate perfectly and demonstrate independent behavior depending on postprandial phenomena and genetic factors like apo E and apo C.

  • Joyce

    9/16/2011 5:17:54 PM |

    This has nothing to do with LDL, but I don't know where else to ask this, so I'll dive right in.

    I am reading and enjoying your book Wheat Belly, but don't understand why you lump chia seed in with other non-gluten grains to avoid or minimize. .  In my mind it is closer to flax.  Chia is truly an oil-seed and not a grain according to Dr. Coates, the "father" of chia seed research.  I have used it generously, and feel it aids in weight loss.  Chia seed is high in protein and fiber and low in carbs.  Why are you telling us to avoid or limit it?  I feel it is healthier than flax even.

    Please, can you clarify your stance on chia?  I was very disappointed to read that in your book.  Other than that, I really enjoyed Wheat Belly, having avoided gluten for a few years now.

  • Joyce

    9/16/2011 5:33:17 PM |

    P.S.  According to calorieking.com website, 1 oz. raw chia contains 0 carbs and 1 oz. dried chia contains only 1 gram of useable carb.

  • Adriana

    9/17/2011 10:16:37 AM |

    Not everybody who has good HDL, good TG and eats a low carb paleo diet will have low small particle LDL numbers which is why an NMR LipoProfile is important.  People with gut issues, yeast issues,  H. Pylori or an otherwise compromised liver can have unhealthy LDL despite doing everything right on the diet front.  Getting to the root of these issues is critical to resolving it.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/17/2011 1:23:49 PM |

    Thanks, Joyce. But I don't remember lumping chia with the bad stuff.

    In fact, as you point out, chia belongs with flaxseed as one of the few truly healthy, low-carb foods.

  • Joyce

    9/17/2011 1:45:31 PM |

    Dr. Davies, on p. 212 of your book, chia is lumped in with other non gluten grains.  Maybe in future editions, the publisher can remove that?

    Although I have been gluten free for years, my husband is finally going gluten free..ALL BECAUSE OF YOUR BOOK!  He has some health issues, so for that I humbly thank you.

    Also, his next Toastmasters speech will be on "Wheat Belly"...how about that!

    Thank you so much for a wonderful book.  Your recipes are awesome.  I look forward to a Wheat Belly cookbook!!!!

  • Linda

    9/17/2011 2:57:40 PM |

    There are so many well read and brilliant posters here that I am going to jump in and ask a question totally off topic. This is not Dr. Davis' area of expertise, so I hope others may help.
    I do believe I am dealing with a bone/heel spur. Too much treadmilling, trying to increase speed, etc. I have done research on the condition and I read that turmeric, taken 2-3 times a day, is helpful. I just recently began taking D3 as well, 5000 IU a day. Will the Vit D3 help as well?
    Any thoughts? No, I am choosing not to visit a doctor for a cortisone shot. I am using NSAIDS for the pain and that works very well.

  • nina

    9/17/2011 4:48:56 PM |

    I've just spotted this post.  Never tried chia and wonder what you thought.  Have your patients reported similar effects?

    Nina

  • steve

    9/17/2011 7:26:34 PM |

    We are now seeing more and more people achieve zero or near-zero small LDL with strict carb reduction. The big exception is apo E4 people, who can still struggle because of the peculiar physiologic effects of this pattern

    Could you go in to more depth as to what strict carb reduction menas?  Is it no more than 50grams of starchy carbs such as rice or potatoes, or 100Grams?  I am guessing it is individualized, but some range of restricitons with those who have been successful would be helpful.  
    I have always had a low level of Trigs- never higher tnah 75 even on a hi carb diet, and was surprised to find the NMR showing all small particles!  So Dr. Davis is right to say low Trgs not always indicative of having large LDL.  Switched to elimination of most carbs and totally changed the profile.  Only issue that is while i produced lots of particles with carb diet, i also produce lots of LDL particles with carb restriction.  Genetics i guess!  I am an ApoE 3/3, which was a surprise.  
    Thanks for the good work Dr. D.  Have gotten several to buy Wheat Belly.  It will have an impact!

  • Joyce

    9/17/2011 7:30:40 PM |

    Nina, I am not Dr. Davis (wish I had his knowlege!), and I hope he doesn't mind me jumping in here, but I leaned about chia a few years ago when I read a book by Dr. Wayne Coates on the subject.  Chia has definitely helped me lose weight.  It is very filling.  When mixed with fluids, the chia seeds expand, and they really help to fill you up.  I've found all sorts of wonderful chia recipes on the web - from Chia "Tapioca" to beverages, etc.  I mix  it into many foods.  I think it enhances their taste.  I feel the chia seeds help with weight loss because of their appetite suppressant potential.  I hope this helped, and my apology to the good doctor for hogging the thread.

  • PeteKl

    9/17/2011 10:24:07 PM |

    Your post doesn't provide a lot of info, but if I were to guess I would say your problem is more likely related to walking/running incorrectly than nutritional (assuming you are in reasonable physical condition).  The human foot wasn't designed to be encased in the heavily cushioned shoes we typically wear today.   As a result many of us don't know how to walk or run correctly.

    Some of the better shoe stores will video tape you on a treadmill.  Just seeing the tape may be enough for you to realize what you are doing wrong.  If that doesn't help, there are professionals who should be able to figure out what might be happening.  

    Also consider reading "Born to Run" if you haven't already (it's a good read even for non-runners).  It probably won't give you a direct solution, but it may give you some ideas on where to look.  Good luck.

  • Louise

    9/18/2011 2:10:34 AM |

    Dr. Davis,
       I am 56 and have a strong history of heart disease in my family. I have been eating low carb for a couple of years... ( around 60 gms carb per day average..no pasta, no potato, almost no grain)  My most recent lipid panel showed LDL of 140. HDL 81, Triglycerides 43, CRP 0.2. .  I requested a test to show size of LDL. My doctor declined to order this, saying all LDL is bad.  Instead I was sent for a heart scan  ( paid out of pocket) and my calcium score was 0.  
      So now I'm trying to lower my LDL by lowering saturated fat.  Hard to do when you eat low carb. I wonder if I might be one of those Apo E 4 types that you mention, so thought I should try,.
      Here are my questions:
         Can I test my LDL size myself, through a home test? Or should I try to find out if I have Apo E 4?
          Do I really need to lower LDL if my calcium score is 0?
    Louise

  • Bob Goldstein

    9/18/2011 4:02:36 AM |

    For the last year I have eaten zero fruit, zero grains, zero sugar. Have mostly eaten beef, occasionally eggs cooked in butter. Have done two VAP tests the last year. When I started a year ago, trigs were 115, now 142. HDL was 50, now 46. My LDL did show a change of going from pattern A/B to pattern A.
    Any ideas why a diet for a year devoid of fruit, sugar, grains, would show an increase in trigs, and a slight decrease in HDL. If I have Apo E4 would my ldl go from A/B to A.
    I have lost 25 lbs. in the past year. Could this be a reason my numbers seem to be off?
    Thanks,
    Bob

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:44:29 PM |

    Hi, Bob--

    Yes, blood drawn in the midst of weight loss can be very misleading.

    Transient effects include increased triglycerides, reduced HDL, even much higher blood sugar. Thankfully, it all gets much better once weight plateaus for a couple of months.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:47:39 PM |

    Hi, Louise--

    Sad that you have to educate your doctor.

    I find it unacceptable that a nice person engaged in health is refused a simple, helpful test. Tell your doctor goodbye and find one willing to act as your partner and advocate in health, not an obstruction.

    Yes, you can test it yourself through services like PrivateMDLabs.com. My view is to 1) identify how much, if any small LDL there is, then 2) reduce small LDL with diet. If you have only large LDL, you will absolutely need an LDL particle number by NMR or an apoprotein B to know what the REAL value is.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:49:52 PM |

    Thanks, Steve.

    There are a number of posts on this blog that detail how to gauge individual carbohydrate sensitivity. The best way is to check 1-hour after-eating blood sugars. Second best: count carb with the cutoff being determined individually. Just go back over the past 6 months and you will find several discussions.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/18/2011 3:51:17 PM |

    Hi, Joyce--

    Thank you!

    If chia is listed as among undesirable non-gluten grains, that was my error. Remember what Mark Twain said: "Don't read about health, else you might die of a typo."

  • nina

    9/18/2011 5:13:58 PM |

    Thanks for your response Joyce.  

    The part that fascinated me was the idea that chia triggers a drop in blood sugars without a pre-spike.  I can't find anything on the net about that and wondered if other people had similar experiences.

    Nina

  • Bob Goldstein

    9/18/2011 7:08:22 PM |

    Thanks for the reply Dr. Davis. I have a blood test scheduled six months from now, and hopefully I will see better numbers. My LDL shows pattern A so at least I did see one positive change.
    Love your blog. Have learned a lot and it was the reason I gave up grains and sugar. 1 full year, no cheats.

  • Annlee

    9/18/2011 10:41:56 PM |

    Consider also going barefoot as much as possible - around the house, etc. You don't necessarily have to run barefoot (unless you work into it *gradually* and choose to continue it). I've recovered from heel spurs with stretching my achilles, with emphasis on stretching the soleus, and letting my feet bear my weight without any props underneath. For stretches, Anderson & Anderson have a very good book - Stretching - available on amazon.com. You didn't develop the spurs overnight, and they won't clear that quickly, either. Be patient and work with your body.

    You may also wish to consider vitamin K2, very good for ensuring calcium deposition occurs in the correct locations.

  • Kira

    9/19/2011 6:52:43 AM |

    Hi Doctor Davis, I talked to your about a year ago and you were kind enough then to comment on my blood results saying there was nothing to worry about - according to the Iranian formula.  I would greatly appreciate if you looked at my new results, they scared my whole family, I certainly am not going to show to the family physician, and I don't even want to think about changing from paleo style of eating to some kind of low fat cholesterol lowering diet, and taking any drugs/supplements. But may be I have to? I am 36 y.o., 5'4 and weigh 104lb.
    Glucose 85
    VAP TEST:
    Lipids
    LDL Cholesterol 149!
    HDL 130
    VLDL 14
    CHOLESTEROL, Total 293!
    Triglycerides 48
    Non HDL Col (LDL+VLDL) 163!
    apoB100-calc 96
    IDL Cholest 4
    Remnant Lipo. (IDL+VLDL3) 12
    Sub-Class Information:
    HDL-2  35
    HDL-3  95
    VLDL-3  8
    LDL1 Pattern A 3.1
    LDL2 Pattern A 26.0
    LDL3 Pattern B  71.0
    LDL 4 Pattern B  31.4

    The ordinary, non-VAP Lipid panel shows:
    Cholest TOTAL 279 !
    Triglycerides 48
    HDL Cholest 144
    VLDL Cholest Cal 10
    LDL Cholest Calc 125 !

    Also, I can't understand how my vit. D can be so low - 29.0, when I have been sun tanning all summer here in Orange County, California, at peak hours. Is there anything that you know of that may inhibit the vit. D conversion from the sun?
    Again, I greatly appreciate any insight that you can give me on this situation...

  • Louise

    9/19/2011 4:52:38 PM |

    Dr Davis,
      Thank you for your reply.  For now, I found a lab I can go to and get myself tested. Two hours away.. (Oddly, I must leave NY state to get this done due to billing law.). I'm going to do this! Do you agree that my best choice is the NMR?

  • otterotter

    9/19/2011 5:43:51 PM |

    Hi Gib,

    Option 1 will be cutting the saturated fat and cholesterol from the diet in addition to cutting the carbs. I tried eliminating eggs and cheese and my total cholesterol down from 400 to 260. By adding back "one egg a day", it went back to 320 (that's the impact of the dietary cholesterol on me, confirmed twice). I am currrently trying to replacing all saturated fat with mono unsaturated fat (olive+canola), just want to see how big the impact is. I am also going to test coconut oil separately, it is a cholesterol-free plant based medium-chain saturated fat, there is a chance I might respond to it differently.

    Option 2 will be taking Statin drugs. I know it has side effects, but that's better than small dense LDL. Based on Dr Davis's previous response, for apoE, sometimes we have to go to Statin for the rescue. (My doc was pushing statin really hard on me, and I have been resisting that for the last year)

    otter

  • Joyce

    9/19/2011 5:50:45 PM |

    Dr. Davis, you are so funny.  We'll take your book....typos and all!  Now...how about a cookbook to compliment Wheat Belly/  PLEASE????

  • nina

    9/19/2011 7:41:34 PM |

    Sorry I missed the link:

    http://suzanneloomscreativity.blogspot.com/2011/09/lowering-blood-sugar.html

    Nina

  • PeteKl

    9/19/2011 9:24:31 PM |

    Hi Kira,

    Just out of curiosity, could you summarize your "paleo style of eating".  I have a good friend of mine who has similar numbers (low trigs, high HDL, high LDL).  I would describe her diet as "low-carb (no sugar, no grains), low-veggie (under 15%), high meat, high sat-fat (particularly cheese, eggs and coconut)".  Is your diet somewhat similar?  I would be interested to know how the two of you compare.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:36:46 PM |

    NMR is my preferred method, since it yields the LDL particle number, what I believe should be the gold standard.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:38:12 PM |

    Thanks for asking, Joyce! I've had very preliminary conversations with my editor, but nothing firm yet.

    In the meantime, in addition to the discussion on this blog, see the Wheat Belly Blog, where I will publish recipes one by one.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 12:41:39 PM |

    Hi, Kira--

    You have a surprising dominance of small LDL particles, despite your slender build and lifestyle (LDL 3+4 divided by "real" LDL). This is likely genetically-determined. The means of correcting this is beyond the scope of this blog, unfortunately. You might consider joining the discussion in the Track Your Plaque website.

    The vitamin D issue is common, an impaired or lost ability to activate vit D in the skin. It means doing it orally.

  • Adam

    9/20/2011 6:40:19 PM |

    Dr. Davis. I'm a type 1 diabetic who is on a low carb diet (mostly primal-esque) with only meat and veg. No fruit, no grains, no legumes. I lost 14 kgs in the first three months, then stabalized at around 89 kgs. Granted my fat is going down a wee bit as muscle mass increases (doing the slow burn exercises, plus HIIT training and martial arts). That is the background.

    The reason I'm posting here is confusion about cholesterol. I just got my latest results back from the lab, and they are the same. While my HbA1C is 5.3 (not bad), my cholesterol numbers don't look hot. Tryglicerides are fine (as I've stopped losing weight quickly), but HDL is low at 39, and LDL (doctor forgot to put in particle size check, but it cna't be that good as I'm a diabetic) was 150 on the spot. This was measured, not calculated.

    I take ~7k miligrams (or whatever the measurement is) of fish oil a day. Well, 7k of EHA/DHA, more in total quanity including inert substances. With my exercise, low carb diet, and fish oil supplements, how is it that my HDL are still so low? Any advice?

    Thanks!

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/20/2011 11:08:46 PM |

    Hi, Adam--

    How timely! See the next post after the one you responded to in which I discuss the transient effects of weight loss, including drops in HDL that rebound over time.

    Also, have you address vitamin D normalization? I aim for 60-70 ng/ml, which usually requires around 6000 units per day (gelcaps or drops only); the HDL-raising effect develops over a year or longer.

  • Adam

    9/21/2011 1:01:18 PM |

    Dr Davis,

    A pleasure to make your (virtual) acquaintance! My vitamin D, according to my last test (results came in yesterday, as I mentioned) levels are 59. A wee bit low, but not too bad, I think.

    I've been consistently 88/89kg for three months (I've been low carb/primal for 6 months total), so haven't lost any weight in the past three months, but still my HDL levels are very low. Do you have any suggestions?

    Cheers,

    Adam

  • Adam

    9/21/2011 1:03:52 PM |

    P.S. I'm pretty sure I've stabalized, as my triglycerides were at 29 or 39 (can't remember off hand, but pretty low). But still I had the low HDL and high LDL?

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/21/2011 9:37:43 PM |

    Hi, Adam--

    Of course, you are wheat-free, low-carb in addition to your vitamin D? Omega-3 fatty acids?

    Note that doing the diet and taking the vitamin D yield rises over 1-2 years. Patience is required.

    Consider a little red wine and dark chocolate, as well.

  • Adam

    9/22/2011 5:10:38 AM |

    Thanks for the response! Yes, I am completely wheat free (and was before I read your book, which was excellent). I am very low carb due to the diabetes. My HDL did go from 29 to 39 this last test (after 6 months), so I suppose, as long as maintaining this diet will continue to increase my HDL, I am ok. My concern isn't immediate gratification but more continuous improvement.

    I'll come bug you again in 3 months if my HDL doesn't continue to increase Smile

    Many thanks!
    ---Adam

    P.S. I've never been accused of not drinking enough red wine Smile While I've been beer free for 6 or 7 months now, I do go through ~2 bottles of red a week.

  • Adam

    9/23/2011 1:35:08 PM |

    Hah! Me too, because if my HDL doesn't start going up I'm gonna freak as I don't know what else to about my numbers. Diet is about as stripped down as it can be, and I'm exercising as much as is reasonable.

    --Adam

  • Kira

    9/24/2011 6:23:22 AM |

    HI Peter. I would say  that my diet could pretty similar, with the exception that I am still eating some low-glycmic fruit everyday (some cantaloup, grapefruits, berries) and eat lots of veggies.

  • Kira

    9/24/2011 6:29:11 AM |

    Dr. Davis, thnx for your reply. I understand this is a blog and it is hard to go into details here, but would you say that it is worth for me to try change this situation by changing the die to using less saturated fat? and would NMR test clarify anything?

    PS How do I further discuss this issue "by joining the discussion in the Track Your Plaque website"?

    Thnx AGAINSmile

  • ShottleBop

    9/25/2011 3:47:09 PM |

    My numbers are like Bill's.  I was diagnosed as pre-diabetic in February, 2008 (today, I'd have been diagnosed as Type 2; my A1c was 6.5, and my FBGs were 127 and 123).  Started low-carbing shortly after that:  cut out grains, starchy veggies, almost all fruit, all milk (still use heavy cream and eat cheese).   My most recent blood lipids (accounting for some variation, but roughly consistent in pattern over the past three years):

    TC:  381
    LDL (direct):  279 (291 calculated)
    HDL:  80 (was 40 at diagnosis)
    Trigs:  52

    (At diagnosis, my numbers were:
    TC: 281
    LDL (direct) 215
    HDL: 40
    Trig: 142)

    I lost 65 pounds in the first 9 months after diagnosis, and, since then, have regained approximately 25 pounds (mostly muscle).  Weight has been stable for months.  My doctor is talking statins, again--which I plan to continue resisting.  I have ordered an NMR test, and will see what it has to say about my particle size.

  • Dr. William Davis

    9/26/2011 12:39:56 PM |

    Hi, Shottle--

    Good plan. I wouldn't be surprised if NMR sheds an entirely different light on your values.

  • ShottleBop

    9/29/2011 4:23:57 PM |

    They drew the blood this morning.

  • Bob

    9/30/2011 11:14:10 PM |

    Dr. Davis, I had my NMR test and the doctor who looked at it suggests that I have familial hypercholesterolemia. My LDL-P 3158
    LDL-C 280 HDL-C 58, TGL 105, HDL-P 28.0 small LDL-P 1122,
    LDL 21.7, LP-IR-33. I have been on no carb, no sugar, no wheat, or fruit for the last 14 months. Have been eating fatty meat twice a day and also eggs. Before I started eating beef, I was eating low carb, very little sat. fat. I was eating a lot of skinless chicken breast, and canned salmon, veggies, nuts, fruit but almost no beef. My LDL according to the basic lipid test was a little high but not crazy high. My HDL was in mid 30's. and trigs were high. I changed to a high saturated fat diet to raise HDL and lower trigs. I have been taking 1 gram of fish oil 2X daily. Is it possible that the fish oil is having an effect on my LDL? Not sure what to do about my diet. Obviously I won't go back to sugar and wheat but what about all the meat I have been eating. Would it be better to go back to skinless chicken and egg beaters even if it means my HDL going down? Just not sure what to do. Doctor believes I am at high risk since my father died at age 62 of sudden death.
    Thanks,
    Bob

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/1/2011 1:48:14 PM |

    Hi, Bob--

    This is a tough situation that, unfortunately, cannot be remedied diet alone. I hate saying that.

    Like people with apo E4, familial heterozygous hypercholesterolemia people are fat sensitive. First order of nutritional business remains carb-restriction to minimize small LDL particles, but you can still show large increases in large LDL with fat intake. If apo E4 is present, too, then even something as great as fish oil can increase LDL measures. However, the dose of fish oil you are using is very small and not a likely factor.

  • Bob

    10/1/2011 2:57:34 PM |

    Thanks for the reply Dr. Davis. I know I won't go back to carbs and sugar, but what about beef. I have eaten almost nothing but beef the last 14 months. Would I be better off going back to skinless chicken breast? Egg Beaters, instead of eggs? Olive oil instead of butter? I know in the past when I limited saturated fat my HDL dropped to mid 30's.
    Bob

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/2/2011 2:46:17 PM |

    Hi, Bob--

    I think we could make a strong argument in favor of variety in diet and that includes meat sources. Yes, I think a broader range of meats (if you eat them; I don't want to sound like a bloodthirsty carnivore; I don't even like meat, personally) is better--fish, shellfish, fowl, pork, as well as eggs.

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:02:47 PM |

    Results came back today:
    TC:  373 mg/dL (ref <200)
    LDL-C:  282 mg/dL (ref = 40)
    Trigs:  47 mg/dL (ref < 150)
    Large VLDL:  <0.7 (ref <=2.7)
    LDL-P:  1793 nmol/L (ref = 30.5)
    Large HDL-P:  14.2 umol/L (ref >=4.8)
    Small LDL-P:  146 nmol/L (ref  20.5)
    HDL size:  10.0 nm (ref >=9.2)
    VLDL concentration was too low to determine a size
    According to the interpretive information:
    My HDL-P (total) of 39.1 places me in the lowest category of risk (it is beyone "high")
    My small LDL-P places me well below the 25th percentile (while slightly higher than the "low" level of 117), and is indicative of lower risk for CVD
    My LDL size places me well above the 75th percentile, and well into Pattern A territory (75th percentile level is 20.6), and is indicative of lower risk for CVD

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:04:16 PM |

    Correction:  My LDL-C was 282, vs. a reference of " 40"

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:06:37 PM |

    I give up.  I am typing things in correctly, and the comment system is dropping words (maybe it's interpreting my use of "greater than" and "less than" symbols as markup code?).  My HDL-C was 82.  The reference level is greater than 40.  My LDL-C was 282; the reference level is less than 100.

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:09:37 PM |

    I see it dropped more information than I thought at first.  No matter, the conclusion stays the same: except for my LDL particle number and concentration, all of my lipid values indicate that I am at lower (or much lower) than average risk of CVD.  Now if only my body takes that to heart . . ..

  • ShottleBop

    10/3/2011 10:16:32 PM |

    LDL particle size was 22.1
    HDL-P was 39.1 umol/L

  • Dr. William Davis

    10/4/2011 2:41:25 AM |

    Hi, Shottle--

    Your values highlight this tremendous void we have in knowing just what to do about nearly "pure" large LDL particles.

    In other words, you have lots of LDL particles, but they are nearly all the more benign large variety. What level of large LDL particles are "allowable" before they contribute to atherosclerotic plaque formation? Not known. My preference would be, given the extreme abundance of large LDL, to reduce with statin drug. I hate to say this, but this is the occasional exception in which I believe that statins might indeed be beneficial. This is not to be confused with the general and absurd overuse of the drugs, but an application for a very specific genetic variant.

  • Louise

    12/5/2011 10:58:49 PM |

    At last I have had an NMR.  Thank you for the suggestion of PrivateMDlabs.com.  I can recommend this
    to others who find their doctor unwilling to order tests.
    I am pondering my results, trying to figure out if they are okay, or if I need to cut back on fat now, or go lower with carb reduction. What are your thoughts, Dr Davis?
       LDL Particle Number  1091  ( IS this too high??)
        Small LDL - P    129
          LDL size     21
        Large VLDL - P   < 0.7
           Large HDL - P        12.1
            HDL size           9.7
          LP - IR score    11
    Triglycerides are 32  ( lower since I"ve gone completely
    grain free since my last lipid panel)

  • Dr. William Davis

    12/6/2011 5:26:54 PM |

    These values are excellent, Louise! The only less than perfect value is the large HDL, but this tends to drift higher very slowly.

  • GoodStew

    5/11/2013 1:56:57 AM |

    Seems particle size doesn't matter as much as particle number. According to Dr. Peter Attia, a particle is a particle.  More than 1000 is a risk factor whether they're small, medium or large and fluffy.

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