What role cholesterol medication?

A frequent conversation point among my patients, as well as participants in the www.cureality.com program, is "Are cholesterol medications really necessary?"

No, they are not. What IS necessary is to correct all manifest and hidden causes of coronary plaque. Among these causes, in my view, is LDL cholesterol of 60 mg/dl or greater. There are many other causes of coronary plaque--e.g., small LDL particles, unrecognized hypertension, Lp(a), hidden diabetic patterns, etc.--but reducing LDL to 60 mg is still an important part of a plaque-reversing effort.

Insofar as we wish to get LDL to this goal, the statin cholesterol drugs like Lipitor, Zocor, Crestor, etc. may play a role. However, they should only be considered after a full effort dietary program is pursued. Don't follow the American Heart Association's diet unless you want to fail. It's nonsense.

For a more detailed discussion of how to use nutrition and nutritional supplements to reduce LDL cholesterol, go to www.lef.org, the website for the Life Extension Foundation. I wrote an article for their magazine called "Cholesterol and Statin Drugs: Separating Hype from Reality". You'll find the article at http://search.lef.org/cgi-src-bin/MsmGo.exe?grab_id=0&page_id=1295&query=davis%20cholesterol%20natural&hiword=CHOLESTEROLA%20CHOLESTEROLS%20DAVI%20DAVID%20DAVIE%20DAVIES%20DAVIN%20DAVIO%20DAVISON%20DAVISS%20DAVIT%20NATURALBASED%20NATURALES%20NATURALIZED%20NATURALLY%20NATURALS%20NATURE%20NATURES%20cholesterol%20davis%20natural%20.)

Can your plaque-reversal efforts succeed without statin drugs? It depends on your causes. For instance, someone with small LDL and Lp(a) only may do great on our basic program and then add niacin. Unfortunately, another person with a starting LDL cholesterol of 240 mg/dl--sky high--will have more success with these drugs.

Believe me, I am no blind supporter of drug companies and their flagrantly profit-seeking practices which, in my view, are cut-throat, shoving anyone and anything out of their way to increase profits and market share. I share many of Dr. Dave Warnarowski's views on how vicious their tactics can be; see his recent Blog post at http://www.drdavesbest.com/blog/ called "I smell a rat".

Nonetheless, the deep and well-funded research of the pharmaceutical industry does yield some useful tools. You don't have to love the insect exterminator, but if your house is being eaten by termites, his services can be useful. Same thing with these drugs. Useful--not the complete answer, not even close, but nonetheless useful in the right situations. Sometimes antibiotics are necessary, even life saving. That's how cholesterol drugs are, too.

Take it all in the proper perspective. Your goal is not cholesterol reduction, per se, but plaque control, preferably reversal.

Supplement Mania!

Ever hear of "polypharmacy"? That's when someone takes too many medicines. People will have lists of 15-20 prescription medicines, for instance, with crazy interactions and oodles of side-effects.

Well, how about "poly-supplments"? That's when someone takes a large number of nutritional supplements.

Let me tell you about a 45 year old man I met.

In an effort to rid himself of risk for heart disease that he felt was likely shared with his family (brother and father diagnosed with heart attacks in their late 40s), Steve followed a program of nutritional supplementation. You name it, he took it: hawthorne, anti-oxidant mixtures, vitamins C, E, B-complex, saw palmetto, 7-keto DHEA, velvet deer antler, gingko biloba, policosanol, chronium picolinate, green tea, pine bark extract, St. John's Wort, CoEnzyme Q10, papain and other digestive enzymes...He became a distributor for a nutritional supplement company to allow him to afford his own extraordinary program.

To satisfy himself that he had indeed "cured" himself of heart disease, he got himself a CT heart scan. His score: 470, in th 99th percentile. Steve's heart attack risk based on this score was around 10% per year. High risk, no question.

For weeks after his scan, Steve admitted walking around in a daze, not knowing what to do. Years of telling himself that he had effectively dealt with his heart disease risk, now all down the drain.

When we met, I persuaded him that to think that this collection of supplements would reverse heart disease was magical thinking. We trimmed his list down to the essentials and got him on the right track.

Heart disease is controllable and reversible, but not this way. Don't fool yourself into thinking that some collection of supplements will be enough to stamp out your heart disease risk. Just like taking an antibiotic when you don't have an infection achieves nothing, so does taking the wrong supplements.

What does heart scanning mean to you?

CT heart scans can mean different things to different people.


What does a heart scan mean to you? There are several possibilities:

1) A way of reducing uncertainty in your future.

2) A tool to crystallize your commitment to health.

3) A device to help you track how successful your heart disease prevention program is.

4) A trick to get you in the hospital.

5) A moneymaking tool for unscrupulous physicians hoping to profit from "downstream" testing, particularly heart catheterizations.


Like anything, heart scans can be used for both good and evil. How can you be sure that your heart scan is put to proper use--for your benefit and not someone else's profit?

Simple: Get educated. Understand the issues, be armed with informed questions.

If, for instance, you're a 55-year old female with a heart scan score of 90, active without symptoms, and you're told to have a heart catheterization right off the bat---run the other way. This is bad advice. A heart procedure like catheterization at this score in an asymptomatic woman is very rarely necessary. That decision can only be made after a step-by-step series of decisions are made by a truly interested, unbiased party. (A stress test is almost always required in this situation before the decision can be made to proceed with a catheterization.)

Unfortunately, in 2006, getting unbiased advice from your doctor is still a struggle. That's why we started Track Your Plaque---unbiased information, uncolored by drug or device company support, with an interest in the truth.

Coronary disease is drying up!

I had an interesting conversation with a device representative this morning. He was a sales representative for a major medical manufacturer of stents, defibrillators, and other such devices for heart disease.

Since I'm still involved with hospital heart care and cardiac catheterization laboratories, this representative asked me if I was interested in getting involved with some of the new cardiac devices making it to market over the next year or two. "The coronary market is drying up, what with coated stents and such. We've got to find new profit sources."

Well, doesn't that sum it up? If you haven't already had this epiphany, here it is:

HEART DISEASE IS A PROFITABLE BUSINESS!

Why else can hospitals afford billboards, $10 million dollar annual ad campaigns, etc.? They do it for PROFIT. Likewise, device and drug manufacturers see the tremendous profit in heart disease.

The representative's comments about the market "drying up" simply means that the use of coated stents has cut back on the need for repeat procedures. It does NOT mean that coronary disease is on the way out. On the contrary, for the people and institutions who stand to profit from heart care, there's lots of opportunity.

Track Your Plaque is trying to battle this trend. Heart disease should NOT be profitable. For the vast majority of us, it is a preventable process, much like house fires and dental cavities.

Mammogram for your heart

With the booming popularity of "64-slice CT scans", there's a lot of mis-information about what these tests provide.

These tests are essentially heart scans with added x-ray dye injected to see the insides of the arteries. However, to accomplish this, a large quantity of radiation is required. In addition, the test is not quantitative, that is, it is not a precise measure that can be repeated year after year.

It is okay to have a 64-slice CT coronary angiogram. It is NOT okay to have one every year. That's too much radiation. However, a heart scan can be repeated every year, if necessary, to track progression or regression. Once stabilization (zero change) or reduction is achieved, then you're done (unless your life takes a major change, like a 20 lb weight gain).

The tried-and-true CT heart scan is the gold standard--easy, inexpensive, precise, and repeatable. Not true for 64-slice angiograms.

Is your doctor using "leeches"?

What if you went to your doctor for a problem and he/she promptly placed leeches on your body?

Yeccchhhh! Would you go back? I'd bet that you'd run the other way as fast as your bleeding legs could take you. Outdated health practices like "bleeding" are outdated for good reason.

Then why would you allow your doctor to approach your heart disease prevention program by checking cholesterol and then waiting for symptoms to appear? That miserable approach leads to tragedy and death all too often--ask Bill Clinton! He might as well have had leeches!

Don't allow your doctor's ignorance or disinterest impede your prevention program. Get your coronary plaque measured, then attack it from all sides by knowing all causes, hidden and obvious. That's why Track Your Plaque is such an effective program.

I often wonder why more doctors aren't using this unbelievably powerful approach to deal with heart disease. But when I see colleagues implanting stents, defibrillators, and the like for many thousands of dollars per patient, the answers are obvious. Given a choice of a rational, effective program of prevention that pays the doctor a few hundred dollars for his time, versus $2000 to $10,000 for a procedure, you can see that the temptation is irresistible for many physicians.

All in the family--What to do if there's heart disease in your family

What should you do if a close relative of yours is diagnosed with coronary disease?
This question came up recently with a patient of mine. The patient--a strapping, 47 year old businessman who looked the absolute picture of health--was undergoing bypass surgery. Although I'd met him for the purposes of plaque reversal, he was already having symptoms and his stress test was flagrantly abnormal, all discovered after a heart scan score of 765. On the day after the patient's bypass, the patient's brother came to me. Understandably concerned about his own health, he asked what he should do. The answer: get a heart scan.
Measure the disease with the easiest test available. If his heart scan score is zero, great--he's at exceptionally low (near zero) risk for heart attack. A modest program of long-term prevention is all that's necessary. What if his score is like his brother, should he get in line for his bypass? No, absolutely not! But he will need two things: 1) a stress test to ascertain whether or not he's safe (60% likelihood a stress test would be normal), and 2) an effort to determine how the heck he got so much plaque. (We favor lipoprotein testing, of course, for greatest diagnostic certainty.)
Message: Learn from the lessons your own family provides. Don't let this valuable information go to waste.
All posts by william-davis

To track small LDL, track blood sugar

Here's a trick I learned after years of fussing over people's small LDL.

To gain better control over small LDL, follow blood sugars (blood glucose).

When you think about it, all the foods that trigger increases in blood sugar also trigger small LDL. Carbohydrates, in general, are the most potent triggers of small LDL. The most offensive among the carbohydrates: foods made with wheat. After wheat, there's foods made with cornstarch, sucrose (table sugar), and the broad categories of "other" carbohydrates, such as oats, barley, quinoa, sorghum, bulghur, etc.

Assessing small LDL requires a full lipoprotein assessment in which small LDL particles are measured (NMR, VAP, GGE). Not the easiest thing to do in the comfort of your kitchen.

However, you can easily and now cheaply check your blood sugar. Because blood sugar parallels small LDL, checking blood sugar can provide insight into how you respond to various foods and know whether glucose/small LDL have been triggered.

Here's how I suggest patients to do it:

1) Purchase an inexpensive blood glucose monitor at a discounter like Walmart or Walgreen's. You can buy them now for about $10. They're even sometimes free with promotional offers. You will also need to purchase lancets and test strips.

2) With a meal in question, check a blood sugar just prior to the meal, then again 60 minutes after finishing the meal. Say, for example, your pre-meal blood sugar is 102 mg/dl. You eat your meal, check it 60 minutes after finishing. Ideally, the postprandial (after-meal) blood sugar is no more than 102 mg/dl, i.e., no higher than pre-meal.

Perhaps you're skeptical that oatmeal in skim milk with walnuts and raisins will do any damage. So you perform this routine with your breakfast. Blood sugar beforehand: 100 mg/dl. Blood sugar 1 hour post: 163 mg/dl--Uh oh, not good for you. And small LDL will be triggered.

This approach is not perfect. It will not, for example, identify "stealth" triggers of blood sugar and small LDL like pasta, for the same reasons that pasta has a misleadingly low glycemic index: sugars are released slowly and not fully evident with the one-hour blood sugar.

Nonetheless, for most foods and meals, tracking your one-hour postprandial blood sugar can provide important insight into your individual susceptibility to sugar and small LDL-triggering effects.

C-reactive protein: Fiction from the drug industry?

C-reactive protein (CRP) is the liver product of inflammatory responses anywhere in the body. If there's an inflamed left knee, CRP will be increased. If viral bronchitis is making you cough, then CRP will be increased.

The argument put forward by the drug industry is that, because CRP indicates underlying inflammation, very low-grade levels that can be measured in the absence of overt inflammation like the sore knee or bronchitis is associated with increased risk for cardiovascular events. There are now many studies that conclusively demonstrate that, the higher the CRP, the greater the cardiovascular risk.

Naturally, any marker of risk is followed by the inevitable study: Do statin drugs reduce the excess cardiovascular risk of excessive CRP?

And, yes, indeed they do. My statin-crazed colleagues rave about the so-called "pleiotropic," or non-lipid, effects of statins. CRP reduction and the reduction of risk associated with CRP result with statin treatment.

But is life really statin vs. placebo, as most statin trials are constructed? Are there strategies that can outdo statins like Crestor for reduction of CRP?

Watch your fish oil labels

A quick quiz:

How much omega-3 fatty acids, EPA + DHA, are in each capsule of fish oil with the composition shown on the label below:





If you said 1340 mg (894 mg + 446 mg), sorry, but you're wrong. There are 670 mg EPA + DHA per capsule.

Did you notice that the composition, or "Supplement Facts," lists the contents of two capsules? Rather than the usual one capsule contents, this product label lists two capsules.

I don't know why some manufacturers or distributors do this. However, I have seen many people tripped up by this kind of labeling, taking half the omega-3 fatty acids they thought they were taking. This can be important when you are trying to obtain a specific dose of EPA + DHA to reduce triglycerides, reduce Lp(a), control abnormal heart rhythms, reduce bipolar mood swings, or other important effects.

I liken this to pulling up to a gas station where the sign says gasoline for $1.25. Wow! Can't beat that! You then find out that it's really $1.25 for a half-gallon, or $2.50 a gallon.

In truth, the labeling is accurate; it's just very easy to not notice the two capsule composition.

Why do I need a prescription for Olava?

Imagine this:





What is OLAVA?

Olava is prescription olive oil. It is the purest, highest concentration of olive oil available.




Why Do I Need a Prescription for OLAVA?

Studies show that olive oil contains essential fatty acids, "good" fats that:



--Contain natural compounds your body needs for good health but can't produce on its own.

--Has antioxidants that may provide protection from heart disease.



So, it is common for people to ask why they need a prescription for OLAVA if it is made from a natural ingredient--olive oil. It's time to get the facts about OLAVA. Learn why OLAVA is different from olive oil you can buy at a store.



OLAVA Is an FDA-Approved Medication

OLAVA is the only FDA-approved medicine made from olive oil that's proven, along with diet, to reduce risk for heart disease


The FDA enforces standards to make sure that prescription medications like OLAVA are safe, effective, and quality controlled.


The way OLAVA is manufactured is reviewed and approved by the FDA.


OLAVA uses a 10-step purification process that helps remove lead and other environmental toxins that can be present in olive oil.


Each 1-gram capsule of OLAVA contains 1000 mg of pure olive oil.


The FDA-approved dose of OLAVA is 4 capsules per day. It could take up to 2 tablespoons per day of regular olive oil to provide the same amount of active ingredients proven to lower heart disease risk.




What Else You Should Know About Olive Oil

Regular olive oil has not been approved by the FDA to treat any specific disease like heart disease.



Olive oil doesn't have specific dosing information; it has a food label.



Olive oil does not go through an FDA-approved manufacturing process.





Talk to Your Doctor About OLAVA

If you have very heart disease, you may need a prescription medicine, along with diet, to treat your condition. Talk to your doctor about OLAVA. Print a trial offer to use on your first prescription of OLAVA.

Overweight, hungry, diabetic, and fat-free

Let me tell you about my low-fat experience from 20 years ago.

At the time, I was living in Cleveland, Ohio, and served on the faculty at a large metropolitan university-affiliated hospital, supervising fellows-in-training and developing high-tech cath lab procedures like directional athererectomy and excimer laser coronary angioplasty. (Yes, another life.)

I was concerned about personal heart disease risk, though I knew next to nothing about lipids and coronary risk prediction outside of the little I learned in training and what the drug industry promoted.

I heard Dr. Dean Ornish talk while attending the American College of Cardiology meetings in Atlanta. Dr. Ornish spoke persuasively about the dangers of fat in the diet and how he "reversed" coronary disease using a low-fat, no added oils, no meat, vegetarian diet that included plenty of whole grains. So I thought I'd give it a try.

I eliminated all oils; I removed all meat, eggs, and fish from my diet. I shunned all nuts. I ate only low-fat products like low-fat yogurt and cottage cheese; and focused on vegetables, fruit, and whole grains. Beans and brown or wild rice were a frequent staple. I loved oatmeal cookies--low-fat, of course!

After one year of this low-fat program, I had gained a total of 31 lbs, going from 155 lbs to 186 lbs. I reassessed some basic labs:

HDL 28 mg/dl
Triglycerides 336 mg/dl
Blood sugar 151 mg/dl (fasting)


I became a diabetic. All through this time, I was also jogging. I ran on the beautiful paths along the Chagrin River in suburban Cleveland for miles north and south. I ran 5 miles per day most days of the week.

It was diabetes that hit me alongside the head: I was eating low-fat meticulously, exercising more than 90% of the population, yet I got fat and diabetic!

I have since changed course in diet. Last time I checked, my lipid values on NO statin agent:

HDL 67 mg/dl
Triglycerides 57 mg/dl
Blood sugar 91 mg/dl

That was my lesson that fat restriction is a destructive, misguided notion. The data since then have confirmed that restricting total fat is unnecessary, even undesirable, when fat calories are replaced by carbohydrate calories.

This is your brain on wheat

Here's just a smattering of the studies performed over the past 30 years on the psychological effects of wheat consumption.

Oddly, this never makes the popular press. But wheat underlies schizophrenia, bipolar illness, behavioral outbursts in autism, Huntington's disease, and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD).

The relationship is especially compelling with schizophrenia:

Opioid peptides derived from food proteins: The exorphins.
Zioudrou C et al 1979
"Wheat gluten has been implicated by Dohan and his colleagues in the etiology of schizophrenia and supporting evidence has been provided by others. Our experiments provide a plausible biochemical mechanism for such a role, in the demonstration of the conversion of gluten into peptides with potential central nerovus system actions."


Wheat gluten as a pathogenic factor in schizophrenia
Singh MM et al 1976
"Schizophrenics maintained on a cereal grain-free and milk-free diet and receiving optimal treatment with neuropleptics showed an interruption or reversal of their therapeutic progress during a period of "blind" wheat gluten challenge. The exacerbation of the disease process was not due to variations in neuroleptic doses. After termination of the gluten challenge, the course of improvement was reinstated. The observed effects seemed to be due to a primary schizophrenia-promoting effect of wheat gluten."


Demonstration of high opioid-like activity in isolated peptides from wheat gluten hydrolysates
Huebner FR et al 1984


Is schizophrenia rare if grain is rare?
Dohan FC et al 1984
"Epidemiologic studies demonstrated a strong, dose-dependent relationship between grain intake and the occurrence of schizophrenia."

Small LDL: Perfect index of carbohydrate intake

Measuring the number of small LDL particles is the best index of carbohydrate intake I know of, better than even blood sugar and triglycerides.

In other words, increase carbohydrate intake and small LDL particles increase. Decrease carbohydrates and small LDL particles decrease.

Why?

Carbohydrates increase small LDL via a multistep process:

First step: Increased fatty acid and apoprotein B production in the liver, which leads to increased VLDL production. (Apoprotein B is the principal protein of VLDL and LDL)

Second step: Greater VLDL availability causes triglyceride-rich VLDL to interact with other particles, namely LDL and HDL, enriching them in triglycerides (via the action of cholesteryl-ester transfer protein, or CETP). Much VLDL is converted to LDL.

Third step: Triglyceride-rich LDL is "remodeled" by enzymes like hepatic lipase, which create small LDL.


Carbohydrates, especially if they contain fructose, also prolong the period of time that triglyceride-rich VLDL particles persist in the blood, allowing more time for VLDL to interact with LDL.

Many people are confused by this. "You mean to tell me that reducing carbohydrates reduces LDL cholesterol?" Yes, absolutely. While the world talks about cutting saturated fats and taking statin drugs, cutting carbohydrates, especially wheat (the most offensive of all), cornstarch, and sugars, is the real key to dropping LDL.

However, the effect will not be fully evident if you just look at the crude conventional calculated (Friedewald) LDL cholesterol. This is because restricting carbohydrates not only reduces small LDL, it also increases LDL particle size. This make the calculated Friedewald go up, or it blunts its decrease. Conventional calculated LDL will therefore either underestimate or even conceal the real LDL-reducing effect.

The reduction in LDL is readily apparent if you look at the superior measures, LDL particle number (by NMR) or apoprotein B. Dramatic reductions will be apparent with a reduction in carbohydrates.

Small LDL therefore serves as a sensitive index of carbohydrate intake, one that responds literally within hours of a change in food choices. Anyone following the crude Friedewald calculated LDL will likely not see this. This includes the thousands of clinical studies that rely on this unreliable measure and come to the conclusion that a low-fat diet reduces LDL cholesterol.

Fat "conditioning"

Here's a great study from the prolific laboratory of Dr. Jeff Volek from the University of Connecticut. (Full text here.)


http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/134/4/880

Video Teleconference with Dr. William Davis


Dr. Davis is available for personal
one-on-one video teleconferencing

to discuss your heart health issues.


You can obtain Dr. Davis' expertise on issues important to your health, including:

Lipoprotein assessment

Heart scans and coronary calcium scores

Diet and nutrition

Weight loss

Vitamin D supplementation for optimal health

Proper use of omega-3 fatty acids/fish oil



Each personalized session is 30 minutes long and by appointment only. To arrange for a Video Teleconference, go to our Contact Page and specify Video Teleconference in your e-mail. We will contact you as soon as possible on how to arrange the teleconference.


The cost for each 30-minute session is $375, payable in advance. 30-minute follow-up sessions are $275.

(Track Your Plaque Members: Our Member cost is $300 for a 30-minute session; 30-minute follow-up sessions are $200.)

After the completion of your Video Teleconference session, a summary of the important issues discussed will be sent to you.

The Video Teleconference is not meant to replace the opinion of your doctor, nor diagnose or treat any condition. It is simply meant to provide additional discussion about your health issues that should be discussed further with your healthcare provider. Prescriptions cannot be provided.

Note: For an optimal experience, you will need a computer equipped with a microphone and video camera. (Video camera is optional; you will be able to see Dr. Davis, but he will not be able to see you if you lack a camera.)

We use Skype for video teleconferencing. If you do not have Skype or are unfamiliar with this service, our staff will walk you through the few steps required.

Track Your Plaque challenges

Of all the various factors we correct in the Track Your Plaque program in the name of achieving reversal of coronary plaque, there are two factors that are proving to be our greatest challenges:

1) Genetic small LDL

2) Lipoprotein(a)

More and more people are enjoying at least marked slowing, if not zero change or reduction, in heart scan scores following the Track Your Plaque program. We achieve this by correcting a number of factors. Some factors, like vitamin D deficiency, are easily corrected to perfection--supplement sufficient vitamin D to achieve a blood level of 25-hydroxy vitamin D of 60-70 ng/ml. Correcting standard lipid values--LDL cholesterol, HDL cholesterol, and triglycerides--child's play, even to our strict targets of 60-60-60.

However, what I call "genetic small LDL" and a subset of lipoprotein(a) are proving to be the most resistant of all.

Let's first consider genetic small LDL. Small LDL is generally the pattern of the carbohydrate-ingesting, overweight person. It has exploded in severity over the past decade due to overconsumption of carbohydrates due to the ridiculous low-fat notion. Reduce or eliminate carbohydrates, especially wheat, which permits weight loss, and small LDL drops like a stone. But there is a unique subset of people who express the small LDL pattern who start at or near ideal weight. Take Chad, for instance. At 6' 2" and 152 lbs and BMI of 19.6, there's no way excess weight could be triggering his small LDL. Yet he starts with 100% small LDL particles. All efforts to reduce small LDL, such as wheat, cornstarch, and sugar elimination; niacin; vitamin D normalization; thyroid normalization; and several supplements that yield variable effects, such as phosphatidylcholine, all leave Chad with more than 90% small LDL.

Lipoprotein(a) is a bit different. Over the past 5 years, our choices in ways to reduce Lp(a) expression have improved dramatically. Beyond niacin, we now have high-dose EPA + DHA, thyroid normalization that includes use of T3, and hormonal manipulation. In the Track Your Plaque experience, approximately 70% of people with Lp(a) respond with a reduction in Lp(a). (In fact, the 4 out of the 5 record holders for reduction of heart scan scores have Lp(a) that was successfully treated.) But about 30% of people with Lp(a) prove resistant to all these treatments--they begin with a Lp(a) of, say, 260 nmol/L and, despite niacin, high-dose EPA + DHA, and various hormones, stay at 260 nmol/L. It can be frustrating and frightening.

So these are the two true problem areas for the Track Your Plaque program, genetic small LDL and a subset of Lp(a).

We are actively searching for better options for these two problem areas. Given the collective exploration and wisdom that develops from such collaborative efforts as the Track Your Plaque Forum, I am optimistic that we will have better answers for these two stumbling blocks to plaque reversal in the future.