Is there something fishy about fish oil?

To be sure, there's plenty of misinformation out there about fish oil. Take a look at the swill that passes for health information on Woman's Day: On Call with Dr. Sandy: Fish Oil and Mercury:



Reader Question: My doctor recommended that I take a fish oil supplement, but I'm concerned about mercury. Is there any way to tell which brands are lowest in mercury content?



On Call Response: When it comes to OTC supplements, the answer is no. Though most fish oil supplements sold by major brands are probably safe, there's really no way to tell what's in the bottle or how much mercury it might contain.




Perhaps Dr. Sandy should read the many independent analyses performed on nutritional supplement fish oil, including those at Consumer Lab and Consumer Report before she offers her blind criticisms.

Lovaza vs fish oil supplements?

Lovaza is the FDA-approved form of fish oil that is available only by prescription. It contains 842 mg of the omega-3 fatty acids, EPA and DHA, per capsule.

The FDA application for Lovaza is viewable here on the FDA website. Interestingly, while there is plenty of the usual regulatory gobbledy-gook about toxicology, dose escalation, and efficacy in the extensive documentation, there is little said about the issue of contamination.

In other words, critics of nutritional supplement fish oil harp on the possibility of contamination with mercury and pesticide residues, like dioxin and PCBs (polychlorinated biphenyls). Yet there is virtually nothing about these same issues in the FDA application for Lovaza.

Let's take a look at a sample over-the-counter fish oil product. Our friends at PharmaNutrients (a new Track Your Plaque partner for nutritional supplements) have a fish oil product called PharmaNutrients" Cardio. Here's an independent analysis of the Cardio product (per 1000 mg fish oil capsule):

EPA content: 566.1 mg
DHA content: 216.6 mg
(Total EPA + DHA 782.7 mg)

Cardio passed all tests for peroxides, PCBs, dioxin, furans, dioxin-like PCBs, and heavy metals (arsenic, cadmium, lead, mercury) using criteria at least 60% more stringent than European Commission (EC) standards (EC standard <2 picograms/gm for dioxins and furans, PharmaNutrients <1 picograms/gm; EC standard <10 picograms/gm for dioxin-like PCBs, PharmaNutrients <3 picograms/gm). PCBs levels in particular are less than 0.009 ppm, 90% below the industry-wide purity standard of 0.09 ppm. Likewise, mercury is >90% lower than European Commission standards.

In other words, this over-the-counter "pharmaceutical grade" fish oil has virtually nothing but omega-3 fatty acids.

Interestingly, the PharmaNutrients fish oil capsule also contains the third omega-3 fatty acid, docosapentaenoic acid (DPA), a neglected form that some authorities have proposed has superior cardiovascular protective properties over eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). If DPA is included in the analysis, PharmaNutrient's Cardio contains a total of 900 mg omega-3 fatty acids per capsule.

At some point, I'd like to see a head-to-head comparison not just on purity grounds, since I am convinced that high-quality products like Cardio can match or exceed the purity of prescription fish oil, but on efficacy in raising omega-3 blood levels, the omega-3 index. (The omega-3 index is a predictor of heart attack and sudden cardiac death--the higher, the better.) My prediction: High-quality fish oil supplements will match or exceed prescription fish oil.

More on blood sugar

Take any of the following foods:

One chicken breast
Quarter-pound ground beef
6 oz salmon steak
½ cup raw almonds
3 eggs scrambled in olive oil

How much is blood sugar increased by any item in the above list?

If you said virtually zero, you’re correct. Eat any of these foods, regardless of portion size, and blood sugar won’t change substantially. If you started with a blood sugar of, say, 90 mg/dl, 1-2 hours later it would be 90 mg/dl. It might go up or even down a few milligrams, but for all practical purposes it remains substantially unchanged.

How much is blood sugar increased by the foods in this list:

2 slices multigrain bread
1 whole wheat bagel
4 oz high-fiber breakfast cereal
2 whole grain pancakes, 2 oz maple syrup

The foods in this list are a different story from the first. Depending on your body weight, exercise habits, and other factors, a typical blood sugar response in an otherwise healthy non-diabetic person would be 120 mg/dl to 160 mg/dl. In someone with diabetes, it could easily exceed 200 mg/dl.

That isn’t good. Large blood sugar excursions to 140 mg/dl have been clearly associated with greater risk for heart attack, progression to diabetes, inflammatory responses, and other adverse health effects. In fact, blood sugars as low as 100 mg/dl after eating have been associated with increased cardiovascular risk.

Then why are the USDA, American Heart Association, the American Dietetic Association, and the American Diabetes Association telling us to eat more of the foods that shoot blood sugar up to such high levels? “Eat more healthy whole grains”?

To see how much the issue of exaggerated blood sugars after eating applies to you, a simple blood sugar check 1-2 hours after eating can show you. Either your doctor can have the test drawn or you can purchase your own inexpensive glucose meter (e.g., Walmart, Wagreens).

My prediction: You will be very surprised at blood sugar responses after common foods, including “healthy whole grains.” And, by the way, keeping blood sugar excursions to a minimum will facilitate weight loss.

Postprandial blood sugar: Almonds vs. whole wheat bread

Here's my postprandial (after-eating) blood glucose demonstration.



I tested raw almonds vs. 100% whole wheat bread, matched for calories. (Full nutritional composition below.)



Blood sugars:

Raw almonds

Start:

One-hour after eating:





2 slices 100% whole wheat bread

Start:

One-hour after eating:





100% whole wheat bread, 2 large slices

Water (g) 24.69

Energy (kcal) 158

Protein (g) 8.29

Fat, total (g) 2.14

Carbohydrate (g) 26.43

Sugars, total (g) 3.56

Fiber, total dietary (g) 4.4

Cholesterol (mg) 0

Saturated fatty acids, total (g) 0.478

Monounsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 1.022

Polyunsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 0.384





23 almonds, raw



Energy (kcal) 159

Protein (g) 5.86

Fat, total (g) 13.64

Carbohydrate (g) 5.98

Sugars, total (g) 1.07

Fiber, total dietary (g) 3.4

Cholesterol (mg) 0

Saturated fatty acids, total (g) 1.03

Monounsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 8.525

Polyunsaturated fatty acids, total (g) 3.331



To get low-carb right, you need to check blood sugars

Reducing your carbohydrate exposure, particularly to wheat, cornstarch, and sucrose (table sugar), helps with weight loss; reduction of triglycerides, small LDL, and c-reactive protein; increases HDL; reduces blood pressure. There should be no remaining doubt on these effects.

However, I am going to propose that you cannot truly get your low-carb diet right without checking blood sugars. Let me explain.

Carbohydrates are the dominant driver of blood sugar (glucose) after eating. But it's clear that we also obtain some wonderfully healthy nutrients from carbohydrate sources: Think anthocyanins from blueberries and pomegranates, vitamin C from citrus, and soluble fiber from beans. There are many good things in carbohydrate foods.

How do we weigh the need to reduce carbohydrates with their benefits?

Blood sugar after eating ("postprandial") is the best index of carbohydrate metabolism we have (not fasting blood sugar). It also provides an indirect gauge of small LDL. Checking your blood sugar (glucose) has become an easy and relatively inexpensive tool that just about anybody can incorporate into health habits. More often than not, it can also provide you with some unexpected insights about your response to diet.

If you’re not a diabetic, why bother checking blood sugar? New studies have documented the increased likelihood of cardiovascular events with increased postprandial blood sugars well below the ranges regarded as diabetic. A blood sugar level of 140 mg/dl after a meal carries 30-60% increased (relative) risk for heart attack and other events. The increase in risk begins at even lower levels, perhaps 110 mg/dl or lower after-eating.

We use a one-hour after eating blood sugar to gauge the effects of a meal. If, for instance, your dinner of baked chicken, asparagus brushed with olive oil, sauteed mushrooms, mashed potatoes, and a piece of Italian bread yields a one-hour blood sugar of 155 mg/dl, you know that something is wrong. (This is far more common than most people think.)

Doing this myself, I have been shocked at the times I've had an unexpectedly high blood sugar from seemingly "safe' foods, or when a store- or restaurant-bought meal had some concealed source of sugar or carbohydrate. (I recently had a restaurant meal of a turkey burger with cheese, mixed salad with balsamic vinegar dressing, along with a few bites of my wife's veggie omelet. Blood sugar one hour later: 127 mg/dl. I believe sugar added to the salad dressing was the culprit.)

You can now purchase your own blood glucose monitor at stores like Walmart and Walgreens for $10-20. You will also need to purchase the fingerstick lancets and test strips; the test strips are the most costly part of the picture, usually running $0.50 to $1.00 per test strip. But since people without diabetes check their blood sugar only occasionally, the cost of the test strips is, over time, modest. I've had several devices over the years, but my current favorite for ease-of-use is the LifeScan OneTouch UltraMini that cost me $18.99 at Walgreens.

Checking after-meal blood sugars is, in my view, a powerful means of managing diet when reducing carbohydrate exposure is your goal. It provides immediate feedback on the carbohydrate aspect of your diet, allowing you to adjust and tweak carbohydrate intake to your individual metabolism.

Food sources of vitamin K2: Reprint

For some reason, my December, 2007, Heart Scan Blog post, Food sources of vitamin K2, has been receiving a lot of traffic.

I therefore reprint the vitamin K2 post below.





Vitamin K2 is emerging as an exciting player in the control and possible regression of coronary atherosclerotic plaque. Only about 10% of dietary vitamin K intake is in the K2 form, the other 90% being the more common K1.

The ideal source of K2 is natto, the unpalatable, gooey, slimy mass of fermented soybeans that Japanese eat and has been held responsible for substantial decreases in osteoporosis and bone fractures of aging. Natto has an ammonia-like bouquet, in addition to its phlegmy consistency that makes it virtually inedible to anyone but native Japanese.

I say that the conversation on vitamin K2 is emerging because of a number of uncertainties: What form of vitamin K2 is best (so-called MK-4 vs. MK7 vs. MK-9, all of which vary in structure and duration of action in human blood)? What dose is required for bone benefits vs. other benefits outside of bone health? Why would humans have developed a need for a nutrient that is created through fermentation with only small quantities in meats and other non-fermented foods?

Much of the developing research on vit K2 is coming from the laboratories of Drs. Vermeer, Geleijnse, and Schurgers at the University of Maastricht in the Netherlands, along with several laboratories in Japan, the champions of K2.

MK-7 and MK-8,9,10 come from bacterial fermentation, whether in natto, cheese, or in your intestinal tract; MK-4 is naturally synthesized by animals from vitamin K1. While natto is the richest source of the MK-7 form, egg yolks and fermented cheeses are the richest sources of the MK-4 form.

Chicken contains about 8 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving; beef contains about 1 mcg. Egg yolks contain 31 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving (app. 6 raw yolks). Hard cheeses contain about 5 mcg MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving, about 70 mcg of MK-8,9; soft cheeses contain about 30% less. Natto contains about 1000 mcg of MK-7, 84 mcg MK-8, and no MK-4 per 3 1/2 oz serving.















Feta cheese

Thanks to the research efforts of the Dutch and Japanese groups, several phenomena surrounding vitamin K2 are clear, even well-established fact:

--Vitamin K2 supplementation (via frequent natto consumption or pharmaceutical doses of K2) substantially improves bone health. While K2 by itself exerts significant bone density/strength increasing properties in dozens of studies, when combined with other bone health-promoting agents (e.g., vitamin D3, prescription drugs like Fosamax and calcitonin), an exaggerated synergy of bone health-promoting effects develop.



--The MK-4 form of vitamin K2 is short-lived, lasting only 3-4 hours in the body. The MK-7 form, in contrast, the form in natto, lasts several days. MK-7 and MK-8-10 are extremely well absorbed, virtually complete.

--Bone health benefits have been shown for both the MK-7 and MK-4 forms.

--Coumadin (warfarin) blocks all forms of vitamin K.





Interestingly, farm-raised meats and eggs do not differ from factory farm-raised foods in K2 content. (But please do not regard this as an endorsement of factory farm foods.)

Another interesting fact: Since mammals synthesize a small quantity of Vit K2 forms from vitamin K1, then eating lots of green vegetables should provide substrate for some quantity of K2 conversion. However, work by Schurgers et al have shown that K1 absorption is poor, no more than 10%, but increases significantly when vegetables are eaten in the presence of oils. (Thus arguing that oils are meant to be part of the human diet. Does your olive oil or oil-based salad dressing represent fulfillment of some subconscious biologic imperative?)

If we believe the data of the Rotterdam Heart Study, then a threshold of 32.7 micrograms of K2 from cheese yields the reduction in cardiovascular events and aortic calcification.

It's all very, very interesting. My prediction is that abnormal (pathologic) calcium deposition will prove to be a basic process that parallels atherosclerotic plaque growth, and that manipulation of phenomena that impact on calcium depostion also impact on atherosclerotic plaque growth. Vitamins D3 and K2 provide potential potent means of at least partially normalizing these processes.

As the data matures, I am going to enjoy my gouda, Emmenthaler, Gruyere, and feta cheeses, along with a few egg yolks. I'm going to be certain to include healthy oils like olive and canola with my vegetables.


All images courtesy Wikipedia.

Copyright 2007 William Davis, MD

Family lessons

Lou was recovering from his 3rd bypass operation. This third go-round left him weaker, slower, less quick on the rebound. In fact, he was lucky to have survived.

At 71 years old, Lou went a good 15 years since his second bypass, another 10 years prior to his first bypass at age 46.

In the days immediately following Lou's bypass, I had a chance to talk to his son, who stayed at his Dad's bedside while Lou struggled through post-op recovery.

"Did your Dad tell you about why this has happened, what caused his heart disease?" I asked.

"Sort of. He just said I should get checked," Lou's son, Aaron, replied.

"Did he mention the lipoprotein(a) pattern he has?"

"No. He never mentioned anything like that. He just said to get checked."

That's how it gets played out more often than not: Mom or Dad has a heart attack, stents, or (3rd) bypass, the children are told to get checked. Getting "checked" assumes that the doctor knows what to check for.

In Lou's case, the reason why he was in the hospital getting his 3rd (and final) bypass was lipoprotein(a), along with genetically-determined small LDL particles, low HDL, a postprandial (after-eating) disorder, hypertension, and borderline diabetes, not to mention vitamin D deficiency, omega-3 fatty acid deficiency, and marginal thyroid function. (Lou, a retired city employee, had showed only marginal interest in correcting these patterns. While he accepted medications, he proved unwilling to engage in the diet and nutritional supplement strategies required to correct his patterns.)

So Lou's 3rd bypass operation provided a moment of reflection for Aaron to ask: "Could I share the fate of my Dad?" With Lou's combination of genetic patterns, there was at least a 75% likelihood that he did. Sadly, going to his doctor would likely yield little more than a cholesterol panel, a question about smoking, and a prescription for Lipitor.

Just getting "checked" would be, more than likely, a recipe for disaster for Aaron: heart disease in his 40s or 50s. That's why you need to take control over this sad state of affairs and ask--no, insist--that an effort be made to determine whether you might share your parents' fate.

Look like Jimmy Stewart


"This diet works great," Don declared. "But I think I've lost too much weight."

At 67 years old and 5 ft. 11 inches, Don began the program weighing 228 lbs (BMI 31.9). Because of high triglycerides, high blood sugar, high c-reactive protein, and excessive small LDL, I instructed Don to eliminate all wheat products from his diet, along with cornstarch and sweets. His intake of lean meats, eggs, vegetables, oils, raw nuts, etc. was unlimited.

Don now weighed 194 lbs, down 34 lbs over 6 months (BMI 27.1). Triglycerides, blood sugar, blood pressure, and well-being had improved dramatically; small LDL, however, had dropped only 30%--still room for improvement.

"My friends say I'm too skinny. They ask if I have cancer!"

I've heard this many times: Someone loses weight in a relatively short period of time and friends and family tell you you're too skinny. "It must be cancer. Nobody loses weight like that."

Unfortunately, many Americans have forgotten what normal looks like. Normal is certainly not a 190-lb, 5 ft 4 in woman, nor is it a 228 lb, 5 ft 11 inch man. But Americans have put on so much weight that the prevailing view of what constitutes "normal" weight has been revised upward. Normal is closer to what we see in old movies from the 1940s and '50s with people like Jimmy Stewart and Donna Reed. That's what we are supposed to look like.

So Don actually remains mildly overweight but is judged as "too skinny," or even cancer-ridden, by friends and family.

Ignore such comments. As you lose pounds and approach a truly desirable weight, realize that you are returning to the normal state, not the vision of "normal" now held by most Americans.

Getting vitamin D right

Vitamin D is, without a doubt, the most incredible "vitamin"/prohormone/neurosteroid I have ever encountered. Frankly, I don't know how we got anything accomplished in health pre-D.

Unfortunately, people I meet rarely take their vitamin D in a way that accomplishes full restoration of vitamin D blood levels. It really isn't that tough.

Here's a list of common tripping points with vitamin D:

"I take vitamin D: 1000 units a day."
This is probably the most common mistake I see: Taking a dose that is unlikely to yield a desirable blood level. (We use 60-70 ng/ml of 25-hydroxy vitamin D as our target.) Most men and women require 6000 units per day to achieve this level. There is substantial individual variation, however, with an occasional person needing much more, a rare person requiring as little as 1000 units.


"I bought some vitamin D on sale. They were white tablets."
Time and again, patients in my office who initially have had successful vitamin D replacement, despite being reminded that only oil-based forms should be taken, switch to tablets. While they initially showed a 25-hydroxy vitamin D blood level, for instance, of 67 ng/ml on 8000 units per day with an oil-based capsule, they switch to a tablet form and the next blood level is 25 ng/ml. In other words, tablets are very poorly or erratically absorbed.

I have had people use tablets successfully, however, by taking their vitamin D tablets with a teaspoon of oil, e.g., olive oil. Oil is necessary for full absorption.


"I'm going to Florida. I'll stop my vitamin D because I'm going to lay in the sun."
Wrong. 90% of adults over 40 years old have lost the majority of their ability to activate vitamin D in the skin. A typical response might be an increase in blood level from 25 to 35 ng/ml--a 10 ng increase with a dark brown tan.

There is an occasional person who, with sun exposure, increases blood levels substantially. This can occur in both fair-skinned and dark-skinned people, though I've never seen it happen in an African-American person. The occasional person who maintains the ability to convert vitamin D with sun exposure, or young people, should seasonally adjust their vitamin D dose, e.g., 6000 units winter, 3000 units summer, or some other regimen that maintains desirable blood levels. You can see that monitoring blood levels (we check levels every 6 months for the first 2 years) is crucial: You cannot know what your vitamin D needs are unless you assess 25-hydroxy vitamin D levels.


"I drink plenty of milk. I don't think I need to take vitamin D."
Oh, boy. This is so wrong on so many levels.

First of all, no adult should be drinking plenty of cow's milk. (A discussion for another day.) Second of all, cow's milk averages 70 units of vitamin D, often the D2 form (ergocalciferol), per 8 oz. Even if the FDA-mandated 100 units per day were present, an average adult dose of 6000 units would require 60 glasses of milk per day. Can you say "diarrhea"?

Likewise, other food sources of vitamin D, such as fish (300-400 units per serving) and egg yolks (20 units per yolk), are inadequate. This makes sense: Humans are not meant to obtain vitamin D from food, but from sun exposure over a large body surface area. And this is a phenomenon that is meant to occur only in the youthful, ensuring that nature takes its course and us older folks get old and make way for the young (i.e., unless we intervene by taking vitamin D supplements).


"My doctor said that my vitamin D blood level was fine. It was 32 ng/ml."

Let's face it: By necessity, your overworked primary care physician, who manages gout, hip arthritis, migraine headaches, stomach aches, prostate enlargement, H1N1, depression, etc., is an amateur at nearly everything, expert in nothing. Nobody can do it all and get it right. Likewise vitamin D. The uncertain primary care physician will simply follow the dictates of the laboratory form that specifies "30-100 ng/ml" as the "normal" or "reference range." Unfortunately, the laboratory often quotes population distributions of a lab measure, not an ideal or desirable level.

To illustrate the folly of population distributions of a measure, imagine you and I want to know what women weigh. We go to a local mall and weigh several thousand women. We tally up the results and find that women weigh 172 lbs +/- 25 lbs (the mean +/- 2 standard deviations). (That's true, by the way.) Is that desirable? Of course it isn't. Population average or population distribution does not necessarily mean ideal or desirable.


"My husband's doctor said he should take 4000 units per day. So I just take the same dose."
That would be fine if all adults required the same dose. However, individual needs can vary enormously. A dose that is grossly insufficient for one person may be excessive for another. Once again, vitamin D dose needs can be individualized by assessing 25-hydroxy vitamin levels in the blood.


"I don't need to take vitamin D. I already take fish oil."
I suspect this mistaken belief occurs either because people confuse fish oil with cod liver oil, which does contain some vitamin D. (Cod liver oil is not the best source of vitamin D, mostly because of the vitamin A content; also a discussion for another time), or because they've heard that eating fish provides vitamin D. However, fish oil capsules do not contain vitamin D unless it is added, in which case it should be prominently and explicitly stated on the label.


"I don't have to take vitamin D. It's summer."

For most people I know, if it's a bright, sunny July day, where are they likely to be? In an office, store, or home--NOT lying in the sun with a large body surface area exposed. Also, most people expose no more than 5-10% of surface area in public. I doubt you cut the grass in a bathing suit. Because of modern indoor lifestyles and fashion, the majority of adults need vitamin D supplementation year-round.


I advise everyone that gelcap vitamin D is preferable. Some, though not all, liquid drop forms have also worked. Take a dose that yields desirable blood levels. And blood levels of 25-hydroxy vitamin D are ideally checked every 6 months: in summer and in winter to provide feedback on how much sun activation of D you obtain.

If your doctor is unwilling or unable to perform vitamin D testing, fingerstick vitamin D test kits can be obtained from Track Your Plaque.

Jimmy Moore's thyroid adventure

My friend, Jimmy Moore of Living La Vida Low Carb, describes his thyroid experience here.

As Jimmy points out, he was looking for a way to jump-start a 50-lb weight loss. In my experience, low thyroid hormone levels ("hypothyroidism") are an exceptionally common cause for weight gain. Correcting even marginal hypothyroidism can facilitate weight loss, often resulting in 10 or more pounds of weight loss within the first month.

Unfortunately, Jimmy's thyroid hormone panel proved normal: TSH 1.3, thyroid hormones free T3 and free T4 in the mid- to upper-half of the reference range.

I say "unfortunately" because it is really an easy, inexpensive, and benign solution for losing weight. (I don't, of course, wish that Jimmy or anyone else develops a thyroid condition. But it really can provide gratifying weight loss results when thyroid function is low.) Jimmy might consider taking his oral temperature first thing in the morning as another means of assessing the adequacy of thyroid function.

Perhaps you will be luckier than Jimmy and have thyroid dysfunction that can be corrected and jump-start your weight loss program. Fingerstick thyroid test kits like the one Jimmy used are available here from Track Your Plaque.

The Big Squeeze

Some colleagues of mine brought this scary phenomenon to my attention last evening.

As insurance and Medicare reimbursement to doctors and hospitals fall (Medicare is enacting a series of substantial cuts, which will be followed by the private health insurers), you would expect the use of hospital procedures to drop. Makes sense, right? Less money paid per procedure, less incentive to do them.

Unfortunately, that's not how it's playing out in the real world. Your neighborhood interventional cardiologist or cardiothoracic surgeon is accustomed to a level of income and lifestyle. That lifestyle is now threatened by shrinking reimbursement. True to the Law of Unintended Consequences, rather than reducing use of procedures, diminishing procedural fees are prompting a good number of practitioners to do more.

In other words, if each heart catheterization pays less, why not do more of them, along with more stents, pacemakers, defibrillators, and the like? If four heart catheterizations per day pays less, why not do five to make up the difference?

Voila! Income protected. Of course, it comes at the cost of more work. But I will give one thing to my colleageus: They are a generally hard-working bunch who rarely balk at 12-16 hours days in the hospital.

How do you do more procedures? Easy. Just lower the bar on who to do a procedure on. Use more aggressive criteria for pacemaker implantation. Interpret the always-fuzzy nuclear stress tests weighed more towards abnormal. Use scare tactics: "You never know--that chest pain could be the last warning you're going to have!" Because the criteria for performing procedures is "soft" in the real world, it is easy to bend the criteria any way you want.

It's too early to measure the full impact of this unintended consequence of reduced reimbursement. But don't allow yourself to become a casualty in the reimbursement war. Remain vigilant. Recognize that, despite the fuzziness at the edges, there are still rational reasons for performing heart procedures. Always be armed with information and the right questions. Never submit unquestioningly or without satisfactory answers to your questions.

Tim Russert's heart scan score 210. . .in 1998

Despite the media blathering over how Mr. Russert's tragic death from heart attack could not have been predicted, it turns out that he had undergone a heart scan several years ago.

A New York Times article, A Search for Answers in Russert’s Death, reported:

Given the great strides that have been made in preventing and treating heart disease, what explains Tim Russert’s sudden death last week at 58 from a heart attack?

The answer, at least in part, is that although doctors knew that Mr. Russert, the longtime moderator of “Meet the Press” on NBC, had coronary artery disease and were treating him for it, they did not realize how severe the disease was because he did not have chest pain or other telltale symptoms that would have justified the kind of invasive tests needed to make a definitive diagnosis. In that sense, his case was sadly typical: more than 50 percent of all men who die of coronary heart disease have no previous symptoms, the American Heart Association says.

It is not clear whether Mr. Russert’s death could have been prevented. He was doing nearly all he could to lower his risk. He took blood pressure pills and a statin drug to control his cholesterol, he worked out every day on an exercise bike, and he was trying to lose weight, his doctors said on Monday. And still it was not enough.

“What is surprising,” Dr. Newman said, “is that the severity of the anatomical findings would not be predicted from his clinical situation, the absence of symptoms and his performing at a very high level of exercise.”


Buried deeper in this article, the fact that Mr. Russert had a heart scan score of 210 in 1998 is revealed.

That bit of information is damning. Readers of The Heart Scan Blog know that heart scan scores are expected to grow at a rate of 30% per year. This would put Mr. Russert's heart scan score at 2895 in 2008. But the two doctors providing care for Mr. Russert were advising the conventional treatments: prescribing cholesterol drugs, blood pressure medication, managing blood sugar, and doing periodic stress tests.

Conventional efforts usually slow the progression of heart scan scores to 14-24% per year. Let's assume the rate of increase was only 14% per year. That would put Mr. Russert's 2008 score at 779.

A simple calculation from known information in 1998 clearly, obviously, and inarguably predicted his death. Recall that heart scan scores of 1000 or greater are associated with annual--ANNUAL--risk for heart attack and death of 20-25% if no preventive action is taken. The meager prevention efforts taken by Mr. Russert's doctors did indeed reduce risk modestly, but it did not eliminate risk.

We know that growing plaque is active plaque. Active plaque means rupture-prone plaque. Rupture prone plaque means continuing risk for heart attack and death. Heart attack and death means the approach used in Mr. Russert was a miserable failure.

While the press blathers on about how heart disease is a tragedy, as Mr. Russert's doctors squirm under the fear of criticism, the answers have been right here all alone. It sometimes takes a reminder like Mr. Russert's tragic passing to remind us that tracking plaque is a enormously useful, potentially lifesaving approach to coronary heart disease.

Who needs to go next? Matt Lauer, Oprah, Jay Leno, some other media personality? Someone close to you? Can this all happen right beneath the nose of your doctor, even your cardiologist?

I don't need to remind readers of The Heart Scan Blog that heart disease is 1) measurable, 2) trackable, 3) predictable. Mr. Russert's future was clear as long ago as 1998. Every year that passed, his future became clearer and clearer, yet his doctors fumbled miserably.



Copyright 2008 William Davis, MD

Another failure of conventional cardiac care


Though Tim Russert was widely known and respected for his political commentary, he will likely be better remembered as an example of the gross shortcomings of the conventional approach to heart disease.

Let's face it:

Standard heart disease prevention efforts are a miserable failure.

A Track Your Plaque member brought this interview of Mr. Russert's doctor to my attention.

It appears that his doctor did all the correct conventional things. You know what became of it. In the eyes of the public and of any attorney, or even of my colleagues, no wrong was committed. The blame does not lie with Mr. Russert's hapless doctor. The blame lies on the system that endorses procedures, prescription medications, the blind adherence to dogma dictated by the pharmaceutical industry and FDA, along with a prevailing philosophy of preferring the management of catastrophes to preventing them. Dr. Newman's idea of a solution: Making an automatic defibrillator (AED) more widely available (!!!).

How long does this sort of idiocy have to go on? How many people have to die before the system uses the tools that are already available, tools that could have prevented this tragedy and many more like it?

If you and your doctor subscribe to the program that the unfortunate Mr. Russert was prescribed and the brainwashing, unthinking nonsense that his doctor follows, you are a fool. Shame on you. You therefore likely subscribe to the same variety of marketing BS that issues from food manufacturers about Cheerios, whole grains, and low-fat diets.

Get with the program. Sadly, Mr. Russert is not the first, he's not the last. The tragedies of conventional advice that line the pockets of drug and food manufacturers number in the millions. We're not talking about some obscure, rare disease. We're talking about the number one cause of death in both males and females nationwide.

I deeply wish this message could have reached Mr. Russert before his untimely death. We could all look forward to another Sunday morning with his usual incisive, unforgiving probing of the day's political figures.

Tribute to Tim Russert

The sudden passing of news giant, Tim Russert, yesterday of sudden cardiac death struck a blow to American consciousness.

Perhaps his hard-hitting interviewing style, while making guests squirm, made him seem invincible. But, of course, none of us is invincible. We are all vulnerable to this disease.

We should not allow Mr. Russert's tragic death to occur without taking some lessons. The media have already resorted to interviewing prominent doctors for their opinion.


Douglas Zipes, M.D., former President of the American College of Cardiology,was quoted in the media:

"An automated external defibrillator (AED) could have been a life-saver. AEDs should be as common as fire extinguishers."

This is typical sleight-of-hand, medicine-is-too-complex-for-the-public-to-understand sort of rhetoric that is surely to issue from the conventionally-thinking medical people and the press. Instead, let's cut the BS and learn the real lessons from Mr. Russert's needless death.

It is virtually certain that:

--Mr. Russert ruptured an existing coronary atherosclerotic plaque, prompting rhythm instability, or ventricular fibrillation.

--Making automatic external defibrillators (AED) available might have Band-Aided the ventricular fibrillation, but it would not have stopped the heart attack that triggered it.

--Though full details of Mr. Russert's health program have not been made available, it is quite likely that he was prescribed the usual half-witted and barely effective panoply of "prevention": aspirin, statin drug, anti-hypertensive medication. Readers of The Heart Scan Blog and members of Track Your Plaque know that this conventional approach is as effective as aspirin for a fractured hip.

--It is highly unlikely that all causes of Mr. Russert's heart disease had been identified--did he have small LDL (it's certain he did, given his body habitus of generous tummy), Lp(a), low HDL, pre-diabetic patterns, inflammatory abnormalities, vitamin D deficiency, etc.? You can be sure little or none of this had been addressed. Was he even taking simple fish oil that reduces the likelihood of sudden cardiac death by 45%?

--Far more could have been done to have prevented Mr. Russert's needless death. And I don't mean the idiocy of making AED's available in office buildings. I'm talking about preventing the rupture of atherosclerotic plaque in the first place.

Far more can be done to prevent future similar deaths among all of us.

Our jobs are to use the tragic death of Mr. Russert to help those around us learn that heart disease is identifiable and preventable. Though Mr. Russert did not stand for BS in his political commentary, he sadly probably received it in his health advice. Don't let this happen to you or those around you.

Why do skinny people get heart disease?

There's no doubt about it: The majority of people with heart disease are overweight. They may not be grotesquely overweight, just a few pounds over. But weight plays a crucial role in activating numerous factors that heighten risk for heart disease.

Excess weight reduces HDL cholesterol, raises triglycerides, increases small LDL (enormously), fans the fires of inflammatory responses (CRP, IL-6, TNF-alpha, etc.) raises blood pressure, increases resistance to insulin and raises blood sugar. Overweight people tend to be less physically active, may develop diseases of obesity like sleep apnea, and on and on. You've heard this all before.

But why do slender people develop heart disease? If we can't blame weight, what is to blame? By slender, I mean body mass index (BMI) of <25. (Yes, I know there are other ways, better ways, to gauge healthy weight. But, for simplicity, I'll use BMI.) Let's put aside the two obvious causes of heart disease, cigarette smoking and Type I diabetes. (I'd be shocked if any cigarette smokers read this blog.)

Slender people develop heart disease because:

1) They have lipoprotein(a)--The big, big neglected risk factor. In fact, the Lp(a) genotype is, in my casual observation, associated with a slender phenotype (genotypic expression). The prototypical example that makes headlines is the marathon runner--slender and superbly fit, but develops heart disease anyway. People wax on about the uncertainties of exercise and fitness when they hear about Jim Fixx and Alberto Salazar. But one factor would explain it all: Lp(a).

2) The murky category of the normal weight obesity. These people are generally recognizable by their flaccid tummies despite falling into a favorable BMI <25. Small LDL is the standout red flag in these people.

3) They were previously overweight but lost it.

4) They were former smokers.

5) Vitamin D deficiency--Deficiency of vitamin D is important for everyone's health. But there appears to be some people for whom it is the dominant risk. I believe that one of our great Track Your Plaque success stories, Neal, falls into this group. Some people who are vitamin D deficient develop colon cancer, others develop diabetes, others develop osteoporosis or multiple sclerosis, while others develop coronary heart disease and plaque. The likely reason for the varied expression is variation in vitamin D receptor genotypes (VDR genotypes).

6) The murkiest of all: Hypertension genotypic variants. This is a poorly sorted-out category, and one principally based on my observations along with scattered observations in such things as variations in the angiotensin converting enzyme genotypes. But I am convinced that there is a small percentage of slender people who show variation in some genetic type that predisposes to hypertension and heart disease. They also show a propensity towards enlargement of the thoracic aorta. This group is also among the most difficult to control in the Track Your Plaque approach, i.e., they have difficulty slowing or stopping the growth of heart scan scores. While blood pressure control in this group is important, it does not seem to remove the excess source of risk.

So, yes, being slender does put you into a lower risk for heart disease category. But it does not mean you are immune.

You can also be an overweight person who still harbors some of the features of the slender--you're an overweight slender person. The above list can still therefore apply.

Cardiology Confidential


Okay, so it's a shameless knockoff of chef Anthony Bourdain's titillating Kitchen Confidential.

But the confidences that I've heard whispered in the corridors of health involve something more provocative than how your food was prepared. Any service for humans performed by other humans is subject to the idiosyncrasies and weaknesses of human behavior. That's just life.

In healthcare for your heart, the consequences can be more profound than eating three day old fish on Monday's dinner menu.

Over my 15 years practicing cardiology in a variety of settings in three different cities, I've witnessed just about everything from shocking to sublime. Some of it speaks to the extraordinary commitment of people in healthcare, the unexpected courage people show in the midst of illness, the devotion of family in difficult times. It can also speak of mewling, sobbing carryings-on over the most minor conditions, the meanness that emerges when people are frightened, the vultures circling just waiting for Grandpa to kick the bucket and leave his will declaring the spoils.

For the most part, my cardiology colleagues are a hard-working bunch committed to . . . Uh oh. I was going to say "Saving lives, preserving health." But that's not true. Once upon a time, it was true for many of my colleagues, often revealed over $2-a-pitcher beer-softened, "we're going to save people" conversations in medical school. Ahhh, medical school. I remember walking along the street alongside my medical school in St. Louis, bursting with pride and a sense of purpose.

But, for many of us, something sours our purpose through the years. Maybe it's the smell of money, maybe it's the series of distasteful experiences that show that healthcare providers are, in the midst of health crises, the innocent recipients of anger, frustration, disappointment.

Whatever the genesis, the stage is set for an imperfect scenario that pits healthcare provider against patient in a less-than-perfect system.

This would read as a mindless rant if it wasn't based on such pervasive and pravalent truths, tales of the flawed deliverers of healthcare driven by motives less lofty than "saving people."

Take Dr. S, a doctor who performs a large number of procedures on patients. I'm told he is very capable. He manages an extraordinary amount of heart work--in between jail time for wife beating and Medicare fraud.

Or Dr. C, well-known in the region for his procedural talents, also. Usually acerbic and freely-swearing, he opens up engagingly when drinking--which is most of the time. Paradoxically, as is true for some serious drinkers, he works more effectively while intoxicated.

Or Dr. ST, who proudly admitted to me one evening over dinner that he has accepted 6-figure payments from medical device companies on a number of occasions to use their products.

Or the manic ups and downs of Dr. J, who refers just about every patient he sees for emergency bypass surgery when in his down phase, mangles coronary arteries in daring angioplasties during his up phase.

How about 310-lb Dr. P, who hounds her patients about indulgent lifestyles? That would be excusable as innocent lack of self-insight if it weren't for her propensity to use heart procedures on patients as punishment. "I have no choice but to take you to the hospital."

Dr. M. manages to maintain the appearance of straight-and-narrow during the day, all the way to attending church twice a week with his children. His daytime persona effectively covers up his frequent visits to prostitutes.


We are ALL flawed. My colleagues are no different. But some circumstances cultivate the flaws, fertilize corruptibility, reward it. Such has become the state of affairs in healthcare for heart disease. Why? Is it the excessive potential for money-making that existed until recently? Is there something about the save-the-day mentality of heart disease that attracts imperfect personalities looking for the adrenaline-charged thrill but morphs over time into near-psychopathic lives?

It's not the end of the world. The fact that my colleagues' behavior has reached such extravagant lows signals a bottom: things are about to change.

In the meantime, let me tell you a few more secrets . . .



Copyright 2008 William Davis, MD

Fanatic Cook on the American Heart Association

The Fanatic Cook has posted a stinging criticism of the American Heart Association (AHA):

American Heart Association My Fat Translator

Beyond the nonsensical nutritional recommendations (e.g., substitute small French fries for large French fries), she lists the major financial contributors to the AHA, a Who's Who in the pharmaceutical and processed food industry.


"For an organization that brought in close to a billion dollars last year, you'd think they could come up with something a little more pronounced. If I was more cynical I'd say the AHA had an interest in keeping Americans fat . . . or at least dependent on a highly-processed, fast food diet, requiring drugs to tweak lab values."

To be sure, the AHA does a great deal of good in funding research and educating the public about the prevalence of heart and vascular disease. But their fund raising interests have clearly subverted the honesty of their nutritional advice. Sadly, it is the AHA dietary advice that hospital dietitians use in counseling people with heart disease after their heart attack, stent, or bypass surgery. After my patients are discharged from the hospital for any reason, I tell them to please forget everything the nice hospital dietitian told them. It is not okay to eat the factory farm-raised hamburger on the sugar-equivalent enriched flour bun. Low-fat ice cream is not a healthy substitute for full-fat ice cream.

The AHA is no different than the USDA and the American Diabetes Association, "official" organizations that have, in effect, sold out to industry.

Sleep for heart health

Sleep is a fascinating phenomenon.

Virtually all animals, certainly all mammals, sleep. While the form and shape of sleep can vary, sleeping is a universal phenomenon. Even fish sleep, though their eyes remain open.

Sleep disorders like sleep apnea ("apnea" = without breathing) are growing in prevalence nationwide as the country gets fatter and fatter. Our throats assume a smaller diameter, even our tongues get obese. This results in intermittent obstruction to the airway during sleep, causing snoring. It also results in sleep interruption, particularly during attempts to "descend" down to the deepest phases of sleep. Dire health and cardiac consequences can sometimes emerge, such as high blood pressure, higher blood sugar, abnormal heart rhythms, impaired heart muscle function, even sudden death.

We are all familiar with the perceptible effects of sleep deprivation: edginess, crabbiness, diminished attention span, slowed reaction time. I'm not talking about sleep apnea or sleep disorders, but just simple duration of sleep. Data are emerging that both sleep deprivation and sleep excess may trigger undesirable changes in lipids (cholesterol values):



Associations of usual sleep duration with serum lipid and lipoprotein levels.

Kaneita Y, Uchiyama M et al.

STUDY OBJECTIVES: We examined the individual association between sleep duration and a high serum triglyceride, low HDL cholesterol, or high LDL cholesterol level. DESIGN AND SETTING: The present study analyzed data from the National Health and Nutrition Survey that was conducted in November 2003 by the Japanese Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare. This survey was conducted on residents in the districts selected randomly from all over Japan. PARTICIPANTS: The subjects included in the statistical analysis were 1,666 men and 2,329 women aged 20 years or older. INTERVENTION: N/A. MEASUREMENTS AND RESULTS: Among women, both short and long sleep durations are associated with a high serum triglyceride level or a low HDL cholesterol level. Compared with women sleeping 6 to 7 h, the relative risk of a high triglyceride level among women sleeping <5 h was 1.51 (95% CI, 0.96-2.35), and among women sleeping > or =8 h was 1.45 (95% CI, 1.00-2.11); the relative risk of a low HDL cholesterol level among women sleeping <5 h was 5.85 (95% CI, 2.29-14.94), and among women sleeping > or =8 h was 4.27 (95% CI, 1.88-9.72). On the other hand, it was observed that the risk of a high LDL cholesterol level was lower among men sleeping > or =8 h. These analyses were adjusted for the following items: age, blood pressure, body mass index, plasma glucose level, smoking habit, alcohol consumption, dietary habits, psychological stress, and taking cholesterol-lowering medications. CONCLUSIONS: Usual sleep duration is closely associated with serum lipid and lipoprotein levels.

Triglycerides go up with too little or too much sleep. Note especially the extraordinary association of low HDL cholesterol with sleeping <5 hours (nearly 6-fold increased risk) or sleeping >8 hours (more than 4-fold increased risk).

Why do these effects develop? Does sleep deprivation, for instance, trigger higher adrenaline levels, encourage carbohydrate cravings or binges, make us less likely to engage in physical activity? Cortisol is elevated; could this be a factor? I know that I am a different person when sleep-deprived: irritable, less clear-thinking, quicker to anger, more critical, and I develop carbohydrate cravings. It's curious that triglycerides increase when sleep excess is present; what might that represent?

Anyway, the data are growing: Sleep is an important facet of health, both for maintaining a bright outlook and to discourage development of low HDL and high triglycerides. Though not specifically examined in this study, we know that low HDL/high triglycerides are, as a rule, associated with the undesirable small LDL particle pattern.

As a practical matter, you may also find sleep and waking from sleep more satisfying and restful if you sleep in increments of 90 minutes, e.g., 7 1/2 hours (rather than 7 or 8 hours). This is because the full cycle of sleep, from phase 1 to REM (rapid-eye movement sleep), requires 90 minutes for completion. That doped feeling that sometimes develops when awaking will disappear if you sleep according to your sleep cycle, which is usually 90 minutes long.

Is normal TSH too high?

There's no doubt that low thyroid function results in fatigue, weight gain, hair loss, along with rises in LDL cholesterol and other fractions of lipids. It can also result in increasing Lp(a), diabetes, and accelerated heart disease, even heart failure.

But how do we distinguish "normal" thryoid function from "low" thyroid function? This has proven a surprisingly knotty question that has generated a great deal of controversy.

Thyroid stimulating hormone, or TSH, is now the most commonly used index of the adequacy of thyroid gland function, having replaced a number of older measures. TSH is a pituitary gland hormone that goes up when the pituitary senses insufficient thyroid hormone, and a compensatory increase of thyroid hormone is triggered; if the pituitary senses adequate or excessive thyroid hormone, it is triggered to decrease release of TSH. Thus, TSH participates in a so-called "negative feedback loop:" If the thyroid is active, pituitary TSH is suppressed; if thyroid activity is low, pituitary TSH increases.

An active source of debate over the past 10 years has been what a normal TSH level is. In clinical practice, a TSH in the range of 0.4-5.0 mIU/L is considered normal. (Lower TSH is hyperthyroidism, or overactive thyroid; high TSH is hypothyroidism, or underactive thyroid.)

The data from a very fascinating and substantial observation called the HUNT Study, however, is likely to change these commonly-held thyroid "rules."

The association between TSH within the reference range and serum lipid concentrations in a population-based study. The HUNT Study

In this study, over 30,000 Norwegians without known thyroid disease were enrolled. TSH levels and lipid (cholesterol) levels were measured.

In this large and extraordinary observation, increasing TSH levels were associated with increasing levels of LDL cholesterol and triglycerides, and decreasing HDL. At what level of TSH did this relationship start? At TSH levels as low as 1.0!

In other words, there were perturbations in standard lipid measures even with TSH levels ordinarily regarded as "normal," even "perfect."

A subsequent observation from the HUNT Study was even more recently published:

Thyrotropin Levels and Risk of Fatal Coronary Heart Disease: The HUNT Study

Abstract:

Background Recent studies suggest that relatively low thyroid function within the clinical reference range is positively associated with risk factors for coronary heart disease (CHD), but the association with CHD mortality is not resolved.

Methods In a Norwegian population-based cohort study, we prospectively studied the association between thyrotropin levels and fatal CHD in 17 311 women and 8002 men without known thyroid or cardiovascular disease or diabetes mellitus at baseline.

Results During median follow-up of 8.3 years, 228 women and 182 men died of CHD. Of these, 192 women and 164 men had thyrotropin levels within the clinical reference range of 0.50 to 3.5 mIU/L. Overall, thyrotropin levels within the reference range were positively associated with CHD mortality (P for trend = .01); the trend was statistically significant in women (P for trend = .005) but not in men. Compared with women in the lower part of the reference range (thyrotropin level, 0.50-1.4 mIU/L), the hazard ratios for coronary death were 1.41 (95% confidence interval [CI], 1.02-1.96) and 1.69 (95% CI, 1.14-2.52) for women in the intermediate (thyrotropin level, 1.5-2.4 mIU/L) and higher (thyrotropin level, 2.5-3.5 mIU/L) categories, respectively.

Conclusions Thyrotropin levels within the reference range were positively and linearly associated with CHD mortality in women. The results indicate that relatively low but clinically normal thyroid function may increase the risk of fatal CHD.


In other words, the findings of this substantial observation suggest that the ranges of TSH usually regarded as normal contribute to coronary events, cardiac death, as well as lipid patterns. While several other studies have likewise shown a relationship of higher TSH/lower thyroid function with lipid abnormalities and overt heart disease, no previous study has plumbed the depth of TSH to this low level and to such a large scale.

I believe that these findings are enough cause to begin thinking seriously about monitoring thyroid function more seriously to uncover "borderline" TSH increases in the "normal" range. While higher TSH levels predict cardiovascular events, does thyroid replacement at these levels reduce it? Critics will say it's a big leap, but I think that it is worth at least considering.

Stay tuned for a lengthy Special Report followed by a full booklet on these issues on the www.cureality.com website.


Copyright 2008 Wiliam Davis, MD

Talking heads

Tne Philadelphia NBC affiliate's website carried this commentary from a colleague of mine:


Mark from the Lehigh Valley is curious about scans that can detect heart disease.

He asked, "I am in my early 50s. My father had a heart attack in his 40s. I am healthy with no symptoms of heart disease, should I consider a heart scan?"

"Well, Mark, occasionally family history needs to be considered more closely. If your father had coronary disease at a relatively young age at the absence of any known risk factor for heart disease for example diabetes, smoking, obesity, high blood pressure, than your level of risk should be considered more closely," Dr. Kevin Shinal, a cardiologist, said.

"There are a number of studies available to access [sic] your level of risk. One such study is a calcium score. A calcium score is a form of a CAT scan that access [sic] the calcium burden or presence of calcium in your coronary arteries. It assigns you a score and score is translated into a level of cardiovascular risk," Shinal said.

But the doctor warned because Mark doesn't have active symptoms, the scan probably wouldn't be covered by insurance.



Was there an understandable answer in there? I certainly couldn't find it.

Why pick on some yokel responding inarticulately to the local media's quest for content? Because this is, all too often, what the public hears: Ill-informed blather from someone who has little or no understanding of the issues. Maybe this doctor wanted his practice group to get some free publicity. "Doctor, could you just answer a few questions from viewers?"

Unfortunately, it's not just local media who are guilty of consulting with know-nothings with only passing knowledge of an issue. National media are guilty of it, too. The need to fill airtime with content is better filled with talking heads who present a compelling story, whether or not it is accurate or insightful, rather than an expert with deep insight into a topic who might not present as pretty a story. I've seen this countless times. A good portion of my day, in fact, is occupied responding to patient questions based on the misinformation presented in some media report.

My message of this brief rant: Be very careful of the messages delivered by the media, even if provided by some supposed "expert." In fact, I regard "experts" in health about as believable as politicians. Sure, sometimes they provide accurate information. But they often do not, or provide information with limited understanding. Or, worse, information intended to serve some hidden agenda.

Were the media to ask me to respond to the question, however, I would say:

"Yes, you should absolutely have a heart scan--yesterday! With your family history, there is no other way to accurately, easily, and inexpensively quantify the amount of coronary atherosclerosis in your heart's arteries. A stress test only uncovers advanced disease. A heart catheterization is overkill and absolutely not indicated in an asymptomatic man. Judging the presence of heart disease from cholesterol values is folly.

"What's left? A CT heart scan. So, yes, you need a CT heart scan ASAP with no doubt whatsoever."

But they didn't ask.